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 Is it possible to charge a Raider?

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Ragnos
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PostSubject: Re: Is it possible to charge a Raider?   Is it possible to charge a Raider? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 18 2018, 07:40

Ok, thanks.

Another similar question.

Last game a friend of mine placed his marines on an upper floor of a ruin, occupying all the space. We agreed that I can't charge or make close combat attacks from the lower floor because my units don't have space on the upper floor. That sounded reasonable back then. But now I am not sure anymore.

I know people make their house rules and everybody plays it a little different. But I wonder how GW intended this to work. Should it be possible to fight models on a different floor in the same ruin?
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|Meavar
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PostSubject: Re: Is it possible to charge a Raider?   Is it possible to charge a Raider? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 18 2018, 07:43

@aurynn wrote:
And I will just drop this here:

WOBBLY MODEL SYNDROME (pg. 177)
Sometimes you may find that a particular piece of terrain makes it hard to put a model exactly where
you want. If you delicately balance it in place, it is very likely to fall as soon as somebody nudges the table, leaving your painted model damaged or even broken. In cases like this,we find it is perfectly acceptable to leave the model in a safer position, as long as both players have agreed and know its ‘actual’ location. If, later on, your enemy is considering shooting the model, you will have to hold it back in the proper place so they can check if it is visible.

Also note this:

MOVING (pg. 177)
A model can be moved in any direction, to a distance, in inches, equal to or less than the Move characteristic on its datasheet. No part of the model’s base (or hull) can move further than this. It
cannot be moved through other models or through terrain features such as walls, but can be moved vertically in order to climb or traverse any scenery.

This together means that any model can be moved in ANY direction and you can pretend it to be where you put it, even 5'' in the air. I bet there is always a possibility to charge anything under this rule.

In fact there is absolutely no requirement for the bases of the models to actually touch the board...

This should solve any problems with charging seemingly unaccessible models. :-)

Yes you can move up in the air no problem.
But wobly model syndrome: "it hard to put a model exactly where
you want. If you delicately balance it in place,"
It is impossible to place it in mid air, not hard
It is impossible to balance miniatures in mid air without something else
So no balancing in mid air is still not allowed by the wobly model syndrome.
I think that was what the FAQ adressed, you can still use it to stand on an edge of a ruin and place your model safe down, but there has to be at least some space on the edge (which is quite hard unless every model sticks over the edge a bit). No floating models, and thus sometimes you cannot charge but usually at least part of the floor is unoccupied.
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Kantalla
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PostSubject: Re: Is it possible to charge a Raider?   Is it possible to charge a Raider? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 18 2018, 09:22

aurynn - GW used to have an answer in the FAQ about using wobbly model syndrome in the case where you can't fit the model on the level of ruins. Now they have changed it to say if you can't fit you can't charge.

I think it is a really silly ruling, and directly leads to the can't charge a model on a crate, or can only charge the base of a Raider.

I also don't think you can move a model up into the air. That seems sillier than the can't assault a model on a crate situation.

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dumpeal
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PostSubject: Re: Is it possible to charge a Raider?   Is it possible to charge a Raider? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 18 2018, 13:47

A floating model merely mean they are climbing and hasn't reached the upper level yet
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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: Is it possible to charge a Raider?   Is it possible to charge a Raider? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 18 2018, 15:36

@Kantalla - The key is that the "moving" rule allows you to move the model in ANY direction. Plus it has no limitations regarding placing the base of the model into contact with the board or terrain. And specifically says that it can move vertically in order to climb or traverse a terrain. No limitation regarding the model starting or ending move in contact with the terrain being traversed. You can climb to traverse a terrain that is 20'' away.

@Meavar - As for the "hard" vs "impossible", where exactly is the line? If the terrain has 60° inclination it is impossible to place a metal mini there, ergo according to your argument you cannot move over such terrain? Or is the limit for metal minis different from plastic minis?

Anyway guys I do not want to start argument about if you can play with your whole army in the air or not. I simply wanted to point out that there are rules that can be used to defend yourself against arguments that are silly. If someone throws ambiguity in your face, he/she should know that there is much ambiguity to throw around. And if he/she asks you to give way in his rule interpretation, it is only fair to ask the same in another occasion. ;-)
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shadowseercB
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PostSubject: Re: Is it possible to charge a Raider?   Is it possible to charge a Raider? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 18 2018, 16:53



A whole new bag of arguments and players feeling slighted during games will result from this ruling.  That being said, as Agatha has mentioned earlier,  if we as Dark Eldar have to follow a ruling then other armies must follow that ruling as well.


EDIT: apparently Wobbly model syndrome in the rule book is different than in the FAQ that it was removed from

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shadowseercB
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PostSubject: Re: Is it possible to charge a Raider?   Is it possible to charge a Raider? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 18 2018, 18:55

So here is a thought, because of the change to the faq on how wobbly model syndrome works does that mean wave serpents cannot be charged? They stand over an inch above the ground and their bases are hidden and centered under the model.

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withershadow
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PostSubject: Re: Is it possible to charge a Raider?   Is it possible to charge a Raider? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 18 2018, 23:56

This was covered on the last page, hovering lets you measure from base or hull, whichever is closer.
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shadowseercB
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PostSubject: Re: Is it possible to charge a Raider?   Is it possible to charge a Raider? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Apr 19 2018, 00:51

The Eldar version doesn't say to measure to the base. Only the hull even though it has a base.
Not that I expect anyone to play like this I am just curious.

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Ragnos
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PostSubject: Re: Is it possible to charge a Raider?   Is it possible to charge a Raider? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Apr 19 2018, 07:03

That is exactly the same problem I have with this new ruling. I don't expect anybody to play this mean tricks, at least not someone of my friends. I also know what GW intended with this rule change. On the one hand the FAQ is written in a way that would allow a lot of stupid things which would make units basically invulnerable to close combat. And on the other hand force people to bend the rules even more to counteract this. And this will sooner or later lead to people feeling cheated by their opponents.
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Kantalla
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PostSubject: Re: Is it possible to charge a Raider?   Is it possible to charge a Raider? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Apr 19 2018, 08:34

For what it's worth, a Wave Serpent is less than 1" off the ground, so no issue getting within 1" of it.

aurynn - I don't think it is worth getting into a can you move vertically when you aren't traversing scenery. That's sillier than the FAQ change. I suspect you haven't appreciated the change the FAQ made.

Before this FAQ the sensible approach of using wobbly model syndrome was the answer to this question. Now they have changed that to say you fail your charge. I don't feel like 'hey you can hover in mid air' is a good answer.

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