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 Word on Street 100 Wyches, but how?

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Kinnay
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PostSubject: Re: Word on Street 100 Wyches, but how?   Mon Apr 16 2018, 14:58

@AzraeI wrote:
what a wonderfull world we live in, not wailing, whereas willfully wondering what we do with the viable wyches

Very "V for Vendetta"-esque alliterations! Nice. Smile

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AzraeI
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PostSubject: Re: Word on Street 100 Wyches, but how?   Mon Apr 16 2018, 15:02

@Kinnay wrote:
@AzraeI wrote:
what a wonderfull world we live in, not wailing, whereas willfully wondering what we do with the viable wyches

Very "V for Vendetta"-esque alliterations! Nice. Smile

I see, you are a man of culture as well Wink
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Malakree
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PostSubject: Re: Word on Street 100 Wyches, but how?   Mon Apr 16 2018, 15:25

@Rhameil wrote:
Your tournaments let you use that many detachments?

Gimping the detachment count is horrific for Drukhari....you can't use the raiding parties and it limits you on taking all 3 of the factions.

Do tournaments really limit it like that, why?
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nerdelemental
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PostSubject: Re: Word on Street 100 Wyches, but how?   Mon Apr 16 2018, 16:12

I tend to think that a blob of anything at 100 dudes can be a tarpit. Guard, Slannesh demon girls, ork grots, very certainly Ork Boyz from the Index are more threatening to me than 100 Wyches from our Codex. (to me). Especially backed up with Ghazgul Trakka and a Banner: 4x25 Boyz + Ghaz, + Warbanner = .894 points. Boyz get 2 Attack, +1A from Choppa, +1A from Ghaz, +1A from Green Tide, all at +1WS from Banner. Just one unit of 25 Boyz would get 125 attacks at WS 2, S4. From the Index.

I do love discussions like this as it might open up new doors to thinking. However, in my dummy lists made to participate in this very thread, I keep finding that my 100 Wyches are *not* what I'd see as the strength - its the Kab units that are now allowed to Ravager or gunline around while Wyches just get annoying. I've played 3 games since the Codex dropped that focused on getting Wyches to do something awesome and I'm not sold.

Kab Obsidian Rose and Coven Prophet of Flesh seem to be the viable lists that I'd look at for anything spectacular.
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shadowseercB
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PostSubject: Re: Word on Street 100 Wyches, but how?   Mon Apr 16 2018, 16:21

@amishprn86 wrote:
Over and over again i keep seeing site after site, fan pages, personal blogs, etc... that 100 Wych lists are dominating, tho i can not find 1 batrep to prove their claims.

Given the case, lets just talk about theories on this idea and how you would play it, you can input your 0.02c but please add it to a spoiler b.c that isnt the point of this post, i want to actually see if we can figure out the winning list this way.

Rules
1) You 100 Wyches
2) 1-3 Detachments of anything you want
3) Any obsessions and vehicles you want
4) Needs to handle a Horde army, a Tank army, a TAC army


My 2cents:
 


The only way i see it working is 2x20 units DSing via WWP, 6x10 in Raiders, 1 Venom for the Succubi and give it the -1 to hit if someone shoots them (-2, 5++ seems good). All are Cursed Blade for Moral protection and always +1S

I have been hearing the same thing from players and websites that wyches are dominating lists or are better than Kabalites. All I tell them is, not true.
Personally I only use wyches because I need them in an alliance of agony list to go with my Reaver jet bikes.

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Lord Asvaldir
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PostSubject: Re: Word on Street 100 Wyches, but how?   Mon Apr 16 2018, 16:32

Even if 100 wyches was the best DE list, who actually owns 100 wyches to try that out? My issue with all these spam lists is that it's just not reasonable for most players, even if I wanted to spam 100 kabalites I have about half that many.

Plus I imagine pure wych spam wouldn't be as good as mixing in a bunch of kabalite warriors as well.

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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: Word on Street 100 Wyches, but how?   Mon Apr 16 2018, 17:07

@Malakree wrote:
@Rhameil wrote:
Your tournaments let you use that many detachments?

Gimping the detachment count is horrific for Drukhari....you can't use the raiding parties and it limits you on taking all 3 of the factions.

Do tournaments really limit it like that, why?

To cut down on potential abuse, basically. It's very common to see restrictions like "You may only take 3 detachments and no more than one of any particular type of detachment (e.g., you can't have three Supreme Command Detachments)".

Our Codex dropped very recently and it's still to be determined whether events will, in general, start to make an exception of some kind for us. I hope that they will but I'm not massively optimistic about that. I can live with it if they don't since I'm not a huge fan of Covens and running Kabal/Cult still lets me take an allied detachment.
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Malakree
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PostSubject: Re: Word on Street 100 Wyches, but how?   Mon Apr 16 2018, 20:48

@Burnage wrote:
Our Codex dropped very recently and it's still to be determined whether events will, in general, start to make an exception of some kind for us. I hope that they will but I'm not massively optimistic about that. I can live with it if they don't since I'm not a huge fan of Covens and running Kabal/Cult still lets me take an allied detachment.

My hope is that they will implement a two option system. Either max 3 detachments or only patrol and the 0 CP detachments.

With the 3 datasheet limit they are looking at adding for none troop/transport that would give us a bunch of flexibility and a serious choice between more specialised detachments and the mixed raiding forces.
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Selvhan
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PostSubject: Re: Word on Street 100 Wyches, but how?   Tue Apr 17 2018, 03:55

100 wyches are very turn 1 dependent. 100 wyches will die very quickly against any shooting army.

20 wyches with 3 weapon upgrade cost the same as 20 kablites with 4 shreders and 2 SC.

To me, wyches are a no go.

If I need a CC unit, it's going to be grotesque.
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Lord Asvaldir
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PostSubject: Re: Word on Street 100 Wyches, but how?   Tue Apr 17 2018, 05:13

I wouldn't say wyches are a no go, I think for their pts they are a solid combat unit, but I want to have them roll up in a raider, not footslog across the board.

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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: Word on Street 100 Wyches, but how?   Tue Apr 17 2018, 09:58

I played 20-20 footslogging wyches and my opponet were never be able to shoot them....just because I DS a lot of valuable targets to him. It's not easy to focus those wyches when you have Grots, Scourges, Mandrakes and flying Venoms in your mouth...

But now, with these beta FaQ, footslogging Wyches are nearly dead.
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Quauchtemoc
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PostSubject: Re: Word on Street 100 Wyches, but how?   Tue Apr 17 2018, 10:08

I dont see how the beta faq affect footslogging whyches
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Word on Street 100 Wyches, but how?   Tue Apr 17 2018, 10:14

@Quauchtemoc wrote:
I dont see how the beta faq affect footslogging whyches

Makes them worst actually, b.c you cant effectively DS an Alpha heavy list anymore, which in turn will lead to more turn 1 on the table shooting, like ML's, artillery, Mortars, etc...

Wyches foot are great against turn 1 melee armies due to 4++ and massive amounts of them that can counter charge, we might still see some good 1st turn charge, just no longer DSing ones.


Or i could be wrong and the meta does shift (With Nids, CWE nerfs along with the beta, i see guard and SM being meta again) and that Hordes become even more popular

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Last edited by amishprn86 on Tue Apr 17 2018, 10:27; edited 1 time in total
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Quauchtemoc
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PostSubject: Re: Word on Street 100 Wyches, but how?   Tue Apr 17 2018, 10:20

But it was bad to DS them turn 1 anway , cause no reroll of charge. At least now we have more CP to use WWP and to reroll 1 dice on the charge.

Anyway i dont like WWP whyches, we have far better unit to send in a WWP.

Actually the real loser of the new deepstrike is the grotesque i think, but they are OP now so they can deal with this
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|Meavar
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PostSubject: Re: Word on Street 100 Wyches, but how?   Tue Apr 17 2018, 11:47

@Quauchtemoc wrote:
But it was bad to DS them turn 1 anway , cause no reroll of charge. At least now we have more CP to use WWP and to reroll 1 dice on the charge.

Anyway i dont like WWP whyches, we have far better unit to send in a WWP.

Actually the real loser of the new deepstrike is the grotesque i think, but they are OP now so they can deal with this

The idea was you walk the wyches, but with the large amount of other deep strikers in their face they do not target the wyches much. Now wyches are one of the juicy targets turn 1 because the deep strikers only arrive at turn 2 so he cannot shoot at all those vehicles, scourges mandrakes, units of 20 kabalites thus instead of 1 out of 6-12 targets (for anty infantry weapons) they become 1 out of 2-6 which leads to a much bigger chance of shooting at wyches.

Also the safe genestealer/chaos turn 1 charges are limited, thus less of those cc list against which wyches usually did well. And more long range shooting list which wyches are not so good against.
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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: Word on Street 100 Wyches, but how?   Tue Apr 17 2018, 11:50

@|Meavar wrote:
@Quauchtemoc wrote:
But it was bad to DS them turn 1 anway , cause no reroll of charge. At least now we have more CP to use WWP and to reroll 1 dice on the charge.

Anyway i dont like WWP whyches, we have far better unit to send in a WWP.

Actually the real loser of the new deepstrike is the grotesque i think, but they are OP now so they can deal with this

The idea was you walk the wyches, but with the large amount of other deep strikers in their face they do not target the wyches much. Now wyches are one of the juicy targets turn 1 because the deep strikers only arrive at turn 2 so he cannot shoot at all those vehicles, scourges mandrakes, units of 20 kabalites thus instead of 1 out of 6-12 targets (for anty infantry weapons) they become 1 out of 2-6 which leads to a much bigger chance of shooting at wyches.

Also the safe genestealer/chaos turn 1 charges are limited, thus less of those cc list against which wyches usually did well. And more long range shooting list which wyches are not so good against.

Does a Wych Cult heavy list really rely on deep striking units? Footslog the Wyches and you could still distract your opponent with swarms of fast moving Hellions, Reavers, beasts and fliers.
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Quauchtemoc
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PostSubject: Re: Word on Street 100 Wyches, but how?   Tue Apr 17 2018, 12:00

Aaah ok now i get it. Fair point indeed
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Ragnos
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PostSubject: Re: Word on Street 100 Wyches, but how?   Tue Apr 17 2018, 12:20

I really like the idea with the 100 wyches. I will try to find enough proxies so I can try a list with them against one of my friends. Maybe the one playing black templar. This way the battle should yield some fun close combat action. To make the list full maybe add some reavers for 1st turn charges and a flayed skull kabal for faster transport raiders.
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dumpeal
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PostSubject: Re: Word on Street 100 Wyches, but how?   Tue Apr 17 2018, 17:40

Cursed Blade Battalion
Succubus (Blast Pistol, Archite Glaive)
Succubus (Blast Pistol, Archite Glaive)
20 Wyches (Blast Pistol)
20 Wyches (Blast Pistol)
20 Wyches (Blast Pistol)
20 Wyches (Blast Pistol)
20 Wyches (Blast Pistol)

995


Battalion of Prophet of Flesh

Haemonculus
Urien Rakharth

10 Wrack, 2 ossefactor
10 Wrack, 2 ossefactor
10 Wrack, 2 ossefactor

Black heart batallion

archon, splinter pistol, venom blade
archon, splinter pistol, venom blade

20 kabalites, 2 blasters
20 kabalites, 2 blasters
20 kabalites, 2 blasters

2084

I know I'm over. But with a few tweeking, I should be able to lower the points. Maybe switch the last balation for a ravager spearhead, or something.

The point of the list is to run the wyches, and T2, redeploy your wracks 9'' from him
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Skulnbonz
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PostSubject: Re: Word on Street 100 Wyches, but how?   Tue Apr 17 2018, 18:09

The key to "dominating" tournaments is not spamming as much as it is being diverse and adaptable enough to overcome any perceived shortfall your opponent may see in your army.
Sure, you take 100 wyches, and run into a small, elite grey knight army and you are thinking "My god, these are awesome!', but your friend running the same army runs up against 3 fire raptors, 3 wyverns and some first rank second rank blobs, and he will be preaching how much that army sucks!

a 20 wyche blob? Fine. FIVE 20 wych blobs? yeah, not so much.

I have my first GT next weekend. For the first time in what seems like FOREVER, I am having trouble settling on a list. Not because our units suck, but because every army theme I come up with I can make it work.
Except for Reavers. I may be the lone voice saying "they are good, but not as good as everyone is saying they are". I just think there are better units we have for less cost, and more adaptability.

Anyway, it is a great problem to have...

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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: Word on Street 100 Wyches, but how?   Tue Apr 17 2018, 23:25

Yeah 100 seems a bit too much for me too. I tried 60 with good results. Now I'm going to trying this:

Cursed Blade Battalion
-Succubus
-Succubus
-19 Wyches
-19 Wyches
-19 Wyches

Red Grief Outriders
-Succubus
-6 Reavers
-6 Reavers
-5 Scourges haywire

Black Heart Spearhead
-Archon (cunning and muse)
-Ravager
-Ravager
-Ravager (dissies)
-5 Scourges haywire
-Razorwing dissies
-Razorwing dissies
-5 Kabal+Venom
-5 Kabal+Venom


I find myself that 60ish wyches are a good body for 2000 points. You have to play around it, getting some distractions, throw the enemy fire away from them, or just exchange them in a valuable trade.
These alone will die pretty fast. But if you use them with outer choices I found them being really good. They are enough to be a pain, they hit pretty good, they can tarpit with the net, and if you lose them...it's ok, they're just wyches.

Playing 100 of them maybe is risky in a term of inner balancing in the list. I feel like you don't have enough room to bring more distractions and some firepower.
But 40-60 of them? Yeah, they works!
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Word on Street 100 Wyches, but how?   Tue Apr 17 2018, 23:54

How are you keeping them alive?

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dumpeal
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PostSubject: Re: Word on Street 100 Wyches, but how?   Wed Apr 18 2018, 00:31

@amishprn86 wrote:
How are you keeping them alive?

They are supposed to stay alive?
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Word on Street 100 Wyches, but how?   Wed Apr 18 2018, 00:38

@dumpeal wrote:
@amishprn86 wrote:
How are you keeping them alive?

They are supposed to stay alive?

You know what i mean... how are they doing anything if they are dead? They need to get to CC at least to be worth it.


Let me re phrase the question then............................
"How are you personally playing them to keep them a love long enough to see combat?"

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Kantalla
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PostSubject: Re: Word on Street 100 Wyches, but how?   Wed Apr 18 2018, 02:00

If your deployment is 24" apart at the front lines then deep strike would effectively give you a 15" move toward the enemy zone. Wyches advancing the first turn would be 9-14" (average 12.5") and still likely to reach the target turn two.

If you bring enough of them it would still be a challenge to see if they can shoot them all down in time. Backed up with a few units of Reavers for a first turn tie up it still seem viable.

I'm aware this is a simplified situation with assuming deployment in opposite lines and there are no better places to deep strike than in the no-mans-land in between the armies, but the basic situation is similar - does two turns of shooting before a Wych horde reaches you give you long enough to take enough down to avoid getting overrun? Some armies I think would do it easily, others might be in some bother.

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