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 Word on Street 100 Wyches, but how?

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Word on Street 100 Wyches, but how?   Sun Apr 15 2018, 18:31

Over and over again i keep seeing site after site, fan pages, personal blogs, etc... that 100 Wych lists are dominating, tho i can not find 1 batrep to prove their claims.

Given the case, lets just talk about theories on this idea and how you would play it, you can input your 0.02c but please add it to a spoiler b.c that isnt the point of this post, i want to actually see if we can figure out the winning list this way.

Rules
1) You 100 Wyches
2) 1-3 Detachments of anything you want
3) Any obsessions and vehicles you want
4) Needs to handle a Horde army, a Tank army, a TAC army


My 2cents:
 


The only way i see it working is 2x20 units DSing via WWP, 6x10 in Raiders, 1 Venom for the Succubi and give it the -1 to hit if someone shoots them (-2, 5++ seems good). All are Cursed Blade for Moral protection and always +1S

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AzraeI
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PostSubject: Re: Word on Street 100 Wyches, but how?   Sun Apr 15 2018, 18:40

Well 8th is the edition of horde spam, and most armies wont expect 100 GEQ running up the table ( or teleporting in) and dont have the tools to deal with them effectively. if the enemy stands in a castle and his screen cant fall back, they cant shoot the wyches. With the wyches closing in, most castle builds are trapped in the biggest tarpit since the Razorwing spam, add in hellions and reavers to block the tanks and call it a day (in theory hoewever Very Happy )
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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: Word on Street 100 Wyches, but how?   Sun Apr 15 2018, 18:59

Is this based on Nick Nanavati's blog about the Codex? I'm still struggling to see why Wyches would dominate over Kabalites.

That said, 100 basic Wyches with two Succubi cost exactly 900 points. If you run them as Cursed Blade and footslog all of them you still have a huge amount of points leftover for upgrades and other units. Something like this list could work:

Black Heart Battalion
Archon (Splinter Pistol, Venom Blade, Cunning, Writ)
Archon (Splinter Pistol, Venom Blade)
2 Sslyth
20 Kabalites (4 Blasters, 1 Dark Lance)
20 Kabalites (4 Blasters, 1 Dark Lance)
20 Kabalites (4 Blasters, 1 Dark Lance)
20 Kabalites (4 Blasters, 1 Dark Lance)

Cursed Blade Battalion
Succubus (Blast Pistol, Archite Glaive)
Succubus (Blast Pistol, Archite Glaive)
20 Wyches (Blast Pistol)
20 Wyches (Blast Pistol)
20 Wyches (Blast Pistol)
20 Wyches (Blast Pistol)
20 Wyches (Blast Pistol)

That gives you 183 bodies on the field which are all immune to morale from round 3 (or 2 if you want to burn a stratagem) alongside 27 Darklight weapons. I dunno how well it'd work in practice but I can definitely see that giving people some trouble.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Word on Street 100 Wyches, but how?   Sun Apr 15 2018, 19:02

I didnt read his blog, but that might be where the 20 others hyping it up got the information from.

Compare to Coven doing the samething, i feel Coven does it WAY better, a 4++ vs a 6++ makes a huge difference when you have 100 models.

100 Wracks with 2 Ossefactors each 10 is 1040pts. And they will last 33% longer vs shooting, and will deal more damage turn 1 from 20 guns with range.

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Quauchtemoc
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PostSubject: Re: Word on Street 100 Wyches, but how?   Sun Apr 15 2018, 19:27

Well the whyches are faster than coven and do more damage in cc but i'm still not convinced . And Wracks are more than 33% more resilient IMO
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Word on Street 100 Wyches, but how?   Sun Apr 15 2018, 19:31

@Quauchtemoc wrote:
Well the whyches are faster than coven and do more damage in cc but i'm still not convinced . And Wracks are more than 33% more resilient IMO

Yeah T4 maybe T5 helps a LOT, i would argue they are 50% more resilient.

Sure Wyches are faster and do more, but if only 40% of them gets to combat where 60% Wracks do, who is going to be better now and long term? The problem with Wracks are poison weapons, but you'll have some Grots to back them up Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Word on Street 100 Wyches, but how?   Sun Apr 15 2018, 19:54

And with shardnet and impaler they have only 1/6 chance of being able to fall back
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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: Word on Street 100 Wyches, but how?   Sun Apr 15 2018, 20:00

100 Wracks is trickier to get on the board, though, because you need more Troops slots for them (max unit size being 10). Do you really want to run multiple Covens detachments or even a Coven Brigade? Your answer to that might be "yes" but mine certainly isn't.
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RedRegicide
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PostSubject: Re: Word on Street 100 Wyches, but how?   Sun Apr 15 2018, 20:00

By the sounds of it, the wyches all HAVE to foot slog. (if you get 1000 points max)

I'd go

4 units of 5 wyches - red grief, +2 leadership, +1 to hit (yuck), +1 S and +2 move
4 units of 20 wyches - cursed blade +1 A, +1 A, +1T +1T

Red grief wyches lead the charge or hold objectives
2 groups of +1 T wyches WW in, each with at least one shardnet. They tarpit enemy, and if they fail their charge at least they have the Toughness to absorb some shooting

other 2 groups of cursed blade (+1A) sprint up board

Maybe reverse the T and A wyches so that the T wyches are the footsloggers?

Its actually a cool idea. They are better in combat than wracks and have shard nets.

Run this with some bikes for distraction, beasts for a better hoard, could be fun

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HERO
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PostSubject: Re: Word on Street 100 Wyches, but how?   Sun Apr 15 2018, 21:19

OK, FIRST, Nick did not say anything about 100 Wyches dominating. The only people who have been saying Wyches are dominating are a few FB random casuals.

Wanna dissect it? Please tell me how 100 Wyches are going to be effective vs. a competitive meta while taking up 800+ points of your army.

How about we talk about what's competitive and what these Wyches aim to do vs. these lists. I think that's a good start.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Word on Street 100 Wyches, but how?   Sun Apr 15 2018, 21:25

@HERO wrote:
OK, FIRST, Nick did not say anything about 100 Wyches dominating.  The only people who have been saying Wyches are dominating are a few FB random casuals.

Wanna dissect it?  Please tell me how 100 Wyches are going to be effective vs. a competitive meta while taking up 800+ points of your army.

How about we talk about what's competitive and what these Wyches aim to do vs. these lists.  I think that's a good start.

Having a discussion on Wych horde isnt bad, we can have this and other topics too. Someone might like Wych horde and might want to know the best way to play it. Surprised

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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: Word on Street 100 Wyches, but how?   Sun Apr 15 2018, 21:28

@HERO wrote:
OK, FIRST, Nick did not say anything about 100 Wyches dominating.  The only people who have been saying Wyches are dominating are a few FB random casuals.

He does mention it in his blog about the subject, for what it's worth.

Quote :
Wychs can turn into pretty awesome speed daemons or chaff killing machines with the right drugs. Also, no escape working on units with Fly is just so amazing I can’t even begin to describe how good it is. I could see an army featuring 120+ s4 pseudo fearless wychs being really strong.
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AzraeI
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PostSubject: Re: Word on Street 100 Wyches, but how?   Sun Apr 15 2018, 21:39

what a wonderfull world we live in, not wailing, whereas willfully wondering what we do with the viable wyches
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Voidhawk
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PostSubject: Re: Word on Street 100 Wyches, but how?   Sun Apr 15 2018, 21:40

Rate my horde attempt:

Battalion - Obsidian Rose: +6" range guns
Archon: Huskblade, Blaster (Deathly Perfectionist: +1dmg on all weapons)
Archon: Venom Blade, Blaster
20 Kabalites: 4 Blasters, 1 Dark Lance
20 Kabalites: 4 Blasters, 2 Dark Lances
20 Kabalites: 4 Blasters, 2 Dark Lances

Battalion - Cult of Cursed Blade: +1 Str, lose maximum of 1 to morale
Succubus: Shardnet+Impaler (+2 Mv)(Treacherous Deceiver: saves of 6 deal a MW)(Traitors Embrace: on death, explode for d6 MW)
Succubus: Glaive, Blast Pistol (Roll Drug)
20 Wyches: Shardnet, Agoniser, Blast Pistol (+1 S)
20 Wyches: Shardnet, Agoniser, Blast Pistol (+1 T)
20 Wyches: Shardnet, Agoniser, Blast Pistol (+1 A)

Battalion - Prophets of Flesh: 4++ save
Urien Rakarth (Diabolical Soothsayer: +d3 cps, also one personal reroll)
Haemonculus: Agoniser, Hexrifle, Crucible (Helm of Spite: deny the witch, if successful deal perils)
10 Wracks: 2 Ossefactors, Electro-Whip
10 Wracks: 2 Ossefactors, Electro-Whip
10 Wracks: 2 Ossefactors, Electro-Whip

1999pts, 11+d3cps (-3cps for Webway)

150 dudes, 6 characters, 19 darklight at range 24" or greater.
Wyches are immune to morale, Kabalites can spend cp to fire guns instead of flee.
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HERO
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PostSubject: Re: Word on Street 100 Wyches, but how?   Sun Apr 15 2018, 22:46

@Burnage wrote:
@HERO wrote:
OK, FIRST, Nick did not say anything about 100 Wyches dominating.  The only people who have been saying Wyches are dominating are a few FB random casuals.

He does mention it in his blog about the subject, for what it's worth.

Quote :
Wychs can turn into pretty awesome speed daemons or chaff killing machines with the right drugs. Also, no escape working on units with Fly is just so amazing I can’t even begin to describe how good it is. I could see an army featuring 120+ s4 pseudo fearless wychs being really strong.

Yes, but the context story behind that is that Wyches, in large amounts, of a specific Obsession (the +1S, Fearless being key) with supporting 4++ SUPER Grots is what's going to be key.

When it comes to putting pressure on someone, it's ALL about giving your opponents really difficult decisions to make. When you put 20 Grots on someone's doorstep and then force a big unit of Reavers and Wyches down their throat, the entire conversation changes. This alleviates pressure on everything else like your Black Heart Spearhead and your blaster units.
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yellabelly
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PostSubject: Re: Word on Street 100 Wyches, but how?   Sun Apr 15 2018, 22:48

Forgive my ignorance - but the codex has been out a week! What are 100 wych lists actually dominating? Someone's local gaming club? Or did they perform at several big tournaments already? Sorry if this sounds sarcastic, it's genuinely not. I don't know if there's been a big event this weekend or something and don't get how a list which can only have existed a week be considered to be "dominating" after such a short time span.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Word on Street 100 Wyches, but how?   Sun Apr 15 2018, 22:51

No i agree, i just wanted to talk about the idea of it moreso than if it actually is good.

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PostSubject: Re: Word on Street 100 Wyches, but how?   Sun Apr 15 2018, 22:57

So with that said, some crap like this:
1971 8(-1) +D3 CP

Black Heart Spearhead +1
Archon, Blaster = 89
4x Ravager, Dissies = 4x125
2x Raider, Dark Lance = 2x85

Cursed Blade Bat +3
Succubus, Agonizer = 2x54
20x Wyches, Shardnet, Agonizer, BP = 179
7x Wyches, Shardnet, Agonizer, BP = 75
7x Wyches, Shardnet, Agonizer, BP = 75

Prophets Vanguard +1
Haeomculus = 75
10x Grots = 350
5x Grots = 175
5x Grots = 175
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HERO
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PostSubject: Re: Word on Street 100 Wyches, but how?   Sun Apr 15 2018, 23:01

@yellabelly wrote:
Forgive my ignorance - but the codex has been out a week! What are 100 wych lists actually dominating? Someone's local gaming club? Or did they perform at several big tournaments already? Sorry if this sounds sarcastic, it's genuinely not. I don't know if there's been a big event this weekend or something and don't get how a list which can only have existed a week be considered to be "dominating" after such a short time span.

They're not dominating. No results from LVO, BAO, Adepticon or any other major. Just a bunch of scrublords spamming nonsense because it worked in their 500 point casual game.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Word on Street 100 Wyches, but how?   Mon Apr 16 2018, 00:30

LOL hero seems annoyed by us talking about it, makes me laugh.

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PostSubject: Re: Word on Street 100 Wyches, but how?   Mon Apr 16 2018, 00:41

@amishprn86 wrote:
LOL hero seems annoyed by us talking about it, makes me laugh.

I've just been in the same thread on fb where randoms are saying 100 Wyches is good. The deeper I dig, the more I find out that it's just nonsense with no actual data and with no info on what kind of lists it works against. One said Wyches were great, and then gave me a link to a battlerep saying it was one of his first games of 8th, playing a 500 pt game against Black Templars.

That's my biggest problem with people making claims like Wyches are great. Until I see some real results vs. competent players fielding real lists, it's all just hogwash.
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PostSubject: Re: Word on Street 100 Wyches, but how?   Mon Apr 16 2018, 02:14

No opinion on how 100 wych lists will do as i haven't tried one but if i was going to drop all my kabalites for some reason  lol!  Here is what i would do...


Battalion Detachment +3CP
Cult of the Cursed Blade

+ HQ +
Succubus: Archite Glaive, Splinter pistol.  50.
Succubus: Shardnet and Impaler, Traitor's Embrace.  55.

+ Troops +
4x20 Wyches: 2xrazorflail(maybe gauntlets i havent made up my mind yet), shardnet and impaler, Hekatrix with power sword and blast pistol. 187(748)
20xWyches: 2xrazorflails, shardnet and impaler, hekatrix with power sword and splinter pistol.  177

Fast Attack
20xHellions: Helliarch, Power sword, splinter pistol.  284.

Outrider Detachment +1CP
Cult of the Red Grief

HQ
Succubus: Splinter pistol, The Blood Glaive. WL(Stimm Addict).  50

Fast Attack:
4x6 Reavers: 2xblasters, 2xGrav Talons, champ with agoniser.  158(632)

80 PL, 1996pts
7-1cp
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PostSubject: Re: Word on Street 100 Wyches, but how?   Mon Apr 16 2018, 14:00

Any reason people aren't running Patrols? a Succubus at 50 points with Serpentine/Archite Glaive seems really disgusting to me.

Cult of Red Grief Outriders - 348

Succubus – 50 points
Warlord – Hyper-Swift Reflexes
Artefact – The Blood Glaive
(50) with Splinter Pistol + Archite Glaive (0)
Adrenalight (+1 Attack)

3 Reavers – 77 points
(57) with Blaster (+17) + Grav-Talon (+3)
Painbringer (+1 toughness)

3 Reavers – 72 points
(57) with Heat Lance (+12) + Grav-Talon (+3)
Adrenalight (+1 Attack)

3 Reavers – 72 points
(57) with Heat Lance (+12) + Grav-Talon (+3)
Hypex (+2 Move)

3 Reavers – 77 points
(57) with Blaster (+17) + Grav-Talon (+3)
Splintermind (+2 Leadership)

Cult of the Cursed Blade Patrol - 148

Succubus – 50 points
(50) with Splinter Pistol + Archite Glaive (0)
Serpentine (+1 Weapon Skill)

10 Wyches – 98 points
(80) with Power Sword (+4) + two Shardnet and Impaler (+5)(+5) + Hydra Gauntlets (+4)
Grave Lotus (+1 str)

Use the reavers to eat up the extra combat drugs and give you stupid speed anti-tank options. All your succubi are str 6 and you can easily hit the 6 patrol detachments which is 14 CP's on it's own.

I tried using agonisers at a tournament on the weekend (3 game local) and found them to be really lack luster compared to what I remember. -2 with 1 damage is pitiful for 4 points...especially when you can get the Hexatrix up to Str 5 with a power sword for the same price.


Am I missing something?
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Rhameil
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PostSubject: Re: Word on Street 100 Wyches, but how?   Mon Apr 16 2018, 14:30

Your tournaments let you use that many detachments?
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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: Word on Street 100 Wyches, but how?   Mon Apr 16 2018, 14:49

@Rhameil wrote:
Your tournaments let you use that many detachments?

Yep, this is the big reason why people aren't taking Raiding Parties - most events cap you to three detachments, and at 1500-2000 points you can get far more command points or have a more flexible list than those three Patrols will give you. It also doesn't help that it provides quite a hefty HQ tax.
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