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Aschen
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PostSubject: The unmentioned problem in the new codex   Sun Apr 15 2018, 08:56

So we all have a few gripes about the codex.... (transport capacity being one)

But yanno what Im angry about? Our fliers still can't vector dance? Why not?! We're Aeldari, we've got piloting skillz.... How disappointing...
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Hen Tai, the tentacle guy
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PostSubject: Re: The unmentioned problem in the new codex   Sun Apr 15 2018, 09:19

I think it’s called balancing... You can’t give one faction all the toys, because then all the other factions will be jealous, and throw mud in your face. If you look in the other forums everyone’s complaining about the mechanics they don’t have access to as well. The best compronise is the one leaving everyone with a bad taste in their mouth. And at least we don’t have it as vad as GK.

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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: The unmentioned problem in the new codex   Sun Apr 15 2018, 10:53

I couldn't care less about Vector Dancing. The transport capacity that doesn't include HQs is a big one for me, but it could be a lot worse Smile

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Crazy_Ivan
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PostSubject: Re: The unmentioned problem in the new codex   Sun Apr 15 2018, 11:00

Do you even need it now that firing arcs have gone?
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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: Re: The unmentioned problem in the new codex   Sun Apr 15 2018, 11:12

@Crazy_Ivan wrote:
Do you even need it now that firing arcs have gone?

Yes. It makes a difference in how likely you are to fly off the board by accident.

Either we should have it, or we should just flat out be able to turn 180 degrees instead of 90. Being out-manoeuvred by the CWE is just insulting.
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AzraeI
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PostSubject: Re: The unmentioned problem in the new codex   Sun Apr 15 2018, 13:06

@FuelDrop wrote:
@Crazy_Ivan wrote:
Do you even need it now that firing arcs have gone?

Yes. It makes a difference in how likely you are to fly off the board by accident.

Either we should have it, or we should just flat out be able to turn 180 degrees instead of 90. Being out-manoeuvred by the CWE is just insulting.

insulting is also that they are tougher and have a better save, have more str8 shots and a bs 2+ (effectivly a 3+ with heavy weapons) AND can vector dance
and dont get me started on that obnoxious psyker flyer
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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: The unmentioned problem in the new codex   Sun Apr 15 2018, 13:23

Then you compare kabalites with guardians and you realize we both have advantages.

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AzraeI
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PostSubject: Re: The unmentioned problem in the new codex   Sun Apr 15 2018, 13:51

then I'm looking at shining spears and I'm stilll a little bit salty
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|Meavar
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PostSubject: Re: The unmentioned problem in the new codex   Sun Apr 15 2018, 13:53

@AzraeI wrote:
@FuelDrop wrote:
@Crazy_Ivan wrote:
Do you even need it now that firing arcs have gone?

Yes. It makes a difference in how likely you are to fly off the board by accident.

Either we should have it, or we should just flat out be able to turn 180 degrees instead of 90. Being out-manoeuvred by the CWE is just insulting.

insulting is also that they are tougher and have a better save, have more str8 shots and a bs 2+ (effectivly a 3+ with heavy weapons) AND can vector dance
and dont get me started on that obnoxious psyker flyer

I do not care much about the better save and higher thoughness, we are light and fast as we should be. It just makes the vector dancing more painfull since they are now more manouvrable while piloting a bigger heavier flyer than we are.
Not that I have ever flown mine of the board, but it would have been nice to be able to do it, although we would probably just keep flying back and forth in that case.
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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: The unmentioned problem in the new codex   Sun Apr 15 2018, 14:12

@AzraeI wrote:
then I'm looking at shining spears and I'm stilll a little bit salty

You are salty because they have better units ?

CW are an elite army, and they have better elites

We are a strange elite-horde army, and we have one of the best basic troop in the game.

Things sound pretty logical and fair.

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amorrowlyday
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PostSubject: Re: The unmentioned problem in the new codex   Sun Apr 15 2018, 16:04

Yep we've literally been Aeldari GEQ since 3rd edition dunno why that would change now.
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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: The unmentioned problem in the new codex   Sun Apr 15 2018, 16:15

Honestly I like our spot.

Very cheap infantry that is still somewhat competent. Easy access to loads of superb anti-tanking (one of the best around) for cheap, and spread out accross all our units.

Cheap, efficient wyches that hit like vanguard veterans, but die like conscripts, for a price in between those 2 units.

Cheap bikes that don't even come close to Shining Spear, but are one of the cheapest Turn 1 chargers in the game (and can tarpit reliably for their cost).

Coven is the only faction that doesn't appeal much to me, they don't seem capable of dealing the damage other similar armies (like Death Guard) can deal.

We don't have the best units, but we can put a ton of units on the table, and they all pack a punch. Really feels like a glass hammer to me.

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Quauchtemoc
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PostSubject: Re: The unmentioned problem in the new codex   Sun Apr 15 2018, 18:25

@Mppqlmd wrote:
Honestly I like our spot.

Very cheap infantry that is still somewhat competent. Easy access to loads of superb anti-tanking (one of the best around) for cheap, and spread out accross all our units.

Cheap, efficient wyches that hit like vanguard veterans, but die like conscripts, for a price in between those 2 units.

Cheap bikes that don't even come close to Shining Spear, but are one of the cheapest Turn 1 chargers in the game (and can tarpit reliably for their cost).

Coven is the only faction that doesn't appeal much to me, they don't seem capable of dealing the damage other similar armies (like Death Guard) can deal.

We don't have the best units, but we can put a ton of units on the table, and they all pack a punch. Really feels like a glass hammer to me.

One thing we can also say is as long their is no way for us to be sure to have the first round being cheap is the only way for a low defence army  to be playable.
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AzraeI
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PostSubject: Re: The unmentioned problem in the new codex   Sun Apr 15 2018, 18:31

@Mppqlmd wrote:
@AzraeI wrote:
then I'm looking at shining spears and I'm stilll a little bit salty

You are salty because they have better units ?

CW are an elite army, and they have better elites

We are a strange elite-horde army, and we have one of the best basic troop in the game.

Things sound pretty logical and fair.

I'm salty because CW put out damage, they hit and they hurt, we hit and we whittle, true now we hit a lot more often and with more units, but still
i would've preferred taht our units stay a similar price but hit and wound and the "death from a thousand cuts" thing comes from more units and not moar attacks and moar units
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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: The unmentioned problem in the new codex   Sun Apr 15 2018, 19:33

@Mppqlmd wrote:

CW are an elite army, and they have better elites

We are a strange elite-horde army, and we have one of the best basic troop in the game.

That's the thing though - I'm not sure everyone wants us to be a horde army. Especially when making us cheap enough to qualify as such also denies us access to the rules or stats that would allow us to actually live up to our fluff.

For example, take the Raider. Yes, it's nice that it's cheap. However, it has supposedly given up its armour (including its entire top section) in order to increase its speed. So why is it slower than Eldar tanks that have maintained their heavier armour? Neutral

Hell, even the super-lightweight Venom can only match the speed of an Eldar heavy tank.

Even the open-topped rule basically exists for the benefit of 1 unit. All our melee stuff would be just as happy assaulting out of the aforementioned Eldar heavy tank. Possibly moreso, as that way we could actually fit an HQ or two in their with them. Or, you know, have one flying or Jetbiking alongside.

Then there's stuff like the Succubus. Yes, she's cheap, but I'd rather she cost a little more and was instead better in combat. Currently, our dedicated-melee HQ is the one with the fewest attacks. Also, she needs to take an artefact just to get a decent melee weapon.

I can only speak for myself, but I do not see it as a positive thing that Dark Eldar are moving further and further away from their fluff, just so that they can have the dubious honour of being a horde army.

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Ikol
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PostSubject: Re: The unmentioned problem in the new codex   Sun Apr 15 2018, 19:51

We’re powerful for the first time in ages.

Properly powerful, too. Not ‘you need to be playing 4th dimensional chess with your opponent, and also the movement phase is your most important phase for damage dealing via deleting enemy vehicles with Tabk Shocks from 2 different directions via Raiders. Also spam Reavers.’

But, as Soulless says, this has come at the cost of our army holding true to our fluff.

Obsessions? Awesome!
Artefacts? Super cool!
Wyches? Heck yeah, they’re good at what they’re meant to be good at, and costed appropriately!
Warriors? Where are our Grenades? They’re literally ON THE MODELS? But still easily one of the best Troops choices in game.
Drazhar? What does he even do that an Archon can’t do better (and ~44 points cheaper).

Succubus? Yeah, we can make her awesome with Relics and Warlord Traits... but for both of these options there’s either an oppurtunity cost or a CP cost... and it becomes unsustainable if you’re including multiple Succubi. Which you have to to be able to run, say, a Battalion. Or if you want to bring 2. just make her 60 points with 6 Attacks base and get rid of the -1 to hit on the Archite Glaive! That is all she needs!

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Leninade
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PostSubject: Re: The unmentioned problem in the new codex   Sun Apr 15 2018, 20:07

This book is trash. There's very little in the way of synergizing combos, and not a lot of great methods of delivery for us.

Take the Tau for instance- the internet is convinced they're terrible, but with a fireblade and a drone fire warriors are now shooting 3 S5 shots at 21" per model. Can you name any scenario we can stack buffs like this?

Tau players sure are eyeing our 'reroll 1s with poison' with envy...
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AzraeI
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PostSubject: Re: The unmentioned problem in the new codex   Sun Apr 15 2018, 20:10

@Leninade wrote:
This book is trash. There's very little in the way of synergizing combos, and not a lot of great methods of delivery for us.

Take the Tau for instance- the internet is convinced they're terrible, but with a fireblade and a drone fire warriors are now shooting 3 S5 shots at 21" per model. Can you name any scenario we can stack buffs like this?

Tau players sure are eyeing our 'reroll 1s with poison' with envy...

tau players envy us for hitting things that have a ravenguardesque chapter tactic and for darklight



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AzraeI
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PostSubject: Re: The unmentioned problem in the new codex   Sun Apr 15 2018, 20:13

One thing that bothers me the most is Lelith
THE QUEEN of commoragh, formerly the bane of blobs, slays space marine champions and towering hive tyrants alike, no one can escape her blades:
5 attacks at str 3 ap-4 d1 lol!
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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: The unmentioned problem in the new codex   Sun Apr 15 2018, 20:17

@AzraeI wrote:
One thing that bothers me the most is Lelith
THE QUEEN of commoragh, formerly the bane of blobs, slays space marine champions and towering hive tyrants alike, no one can escape her blades:
5 attacks at str 3 ap-4 d1 lol!

At least she's kicked her drug habit. Wink

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Ikol
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PostSubject: Re: The unmentioned problem in the new codex   Sun Apr 15 2018, 20:26

6 at S3 or 5 at S4. +2 with her hair at... AP0.

Natural Perfection is a good rule for her.

+ she gets another attack on the charge/being charged if you’ve spent 40 points more to unlock the Cult of Strife obsession for her.

Then you toss on Blood Dancer (if you’re taking her, why wouldn’t you spend the CP to get an additional Warlord?) and suddenly she’s hitting 8 times with the knives and a little over 2 times with her hair at S4.
Discarding those 2 hair-whips, that’s 4 dead marines, 1.75ish dead termies (and when each of them can cost nearly 40 points) and 6ish dead GEQ. Or Dire Avengers. Or any other T3 model lacking invulns.

Lelith does work!

Would it be nice if the Succi had 6 base and Lelith 7? HELL YES! Would it be broken? Not with a minor points bump on the Succi’s part.

Are they terrible right now?

I’d argue the Succubus suffers from a lack of scalability (in bigger games, one will be good, any others will be meh).

But Lelith is fine if you give her her own detachment (which you were doing anyway) and/or make her a Warlord (which you should be doing if you’re bringing named characters).

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Leninade
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PostSubject: Re: The unmentioned problem in the new codex   Sun Apr 15 2018, 20:52

I find it odd that Dark Eldar players always refer to minor changes to a mediocre stat line as 'potentially broken'
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AzraeI
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PostSubject: Re: The unmentioned problem in the new codex   Sun Apr 15 2018, 21:29

@Ikol wrote:
6 at S3 or 5 at S4.  +2 with her hair at... AP0.

Natural Perfection is a good rule for her.

+ she gets another attack on the charge/being charged if you’ve spent 40 points more to unlock the Cult of Strife obsession for her.

Then you toss on Blood Dancer (if you’re taking her, why wouldn’t you spend the CP to get an additional Warlord?) and suddenly she’s hitting 8 times with the knives and a little over 2 times with her hair at S4.
Discarding those 2 hair-whips, that’s 4 dead marines, 1.75ish dead termies (and when each of them can cost nearly 40 points) and 6ish dead GEQ.  Or Dire Avengers.  Or any other T3 model lacking invulns.

Lelith does work!

Would it be nice if the Succi had 6 base and Lelith 7?  HELL YES!  Would it be broken?  Not with a minor points bump on the Succi’s part.

Are they terrible right now?

I’d argue the Succubus suffers from a lack of scalability (in bigger games, one will be good, any others will be meh).

But Lelith is fine if you give her her own detachment (which you were doing anyway) and/or make her a Warlord (which you should be doing if you’re bringing named characters).

but why the hair whip? why is it not a shardnet like it used to be? why does she only reroll wounds against characters? why does she immediately die if she gets close to something like a chapter master or a HT or broodlord, daemonprince?
i would pay 200 pts for her if she would kill stuff, she should be someone that is feared, your opponents should see her and think: oh no if she comes close to me I'm screwed, not ah ok he plays an exhibitionist succubus, meh
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PostSubject: Re: The unmentioned problem in the new codex   Sun Apr 15 2018, 22:36

I have been saying for a while that they should make Lelith insanely deadly. Like, absurdly deadly. And make her our lord of war. 2++, 4++ vs mortal wounds, Flat wounds on 2+ vs everything due to her insane precision, ignores all armour saves. And her attacks do a mortal wound on 4+ to wound, and d3 mortal wounds on a 6+. No AP on any of her weapons or anything like that, they are perfectly normal knives. SHE IS JUST THAT DEADLY.

She would cost a bucket load, but she would be SCARY.
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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: The unmentioned problem in the new codex   Sun Apr 15 2018, 22:44

That's the problem with warhammer 40k. Everybody has, in the fluff, broken units.

- I can use black holes
- I have killer beasts genetically made for war
- I have super beams of destruction that can destroy a planet
- I have super soldiers
- etc, etc

Not everything can be "the ultimate weapon of destruction"... Half the factions in the game SHOULD have a 2++, 10 attacks, S6 weapon of mass destruction. Do we want the game to be a huge fight between all the big munchkins ?

Of course, others have Girlyman/Mortarion/etc, so we could have one.

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