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Stark Raving Sane
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PostSubject: Beasts units   Thu Apr 12 2018, 16:37

I'm curious what others think of Beasts in the Codex. With the nerf to the Beastmaster's reroll aura, the fiends' high cost and terrible saves, and the relative nerf to razorwing flocks' number of attacks, I don't see much of a use for them.  I suppose flocks could still be used for mobile bubblewrapping, but with T2 and no saves they go down quick.

Is there some use that I'm missing?
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Lord Asvaldir
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PostSubject: Re: Beasts units   Thu Apr 12 2018, 17:08

Fiends still pack a pretty big punch, but when considering them I think it's hard to take them over grots, since grots are just so much tougher especially if you're running prophets of flesh.

I don't think razorwing flocks were nerved. Yeah half the attacks, but now they hit on 4s and have an ap value, seems like a fair trade off, and they went down 2 pts which is nice.

I use to use 15 razorwing flocks in 5 units in my index list, can't really do that anymore because of the matched play rules for a beastmaster so I'll have to go down to 3 units. Since I don't own a beastmaster, I haven't actually tested out beasts yet, but I think I'll go back to using razorwing flocks eventually.

Best beasts though might actually be the khymarae, cheapest, have an invul save and decent attacks. Still useful as cheap screens, as are the razorwing flocks, though now that are transports and troops got cheaper I'm not sure what we need cheap screens as much anymore.

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Stark Raving Sane
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PostSubject: Re: Beasts units   Thu Apr 12 2018, 17:24

I suppose Flocks were more of a sidegrade. I'm actually glad for the halving the number of attacks, since 8 attacks per model, rerolling all misses from the Beastmaster, was a serious pain unless you use a dice app.

I suppose my main issue is with the Beastmaster's aura. Changing rerolling all misses to rerolling 1's dramatically decreased the offensive power of all beast units.
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Lord Asvaldir
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PostSubject: Re: Beasts units   Thu Apr 12 2018, 17:41

I suppose it does, but I never use beasts as my main damage dealers, so that doesn't bother me too much. I'll take a worse aura in return for cheaper pts cost, though I think the beastmaster should have gone down a bit more.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Beasts units   Thu Apr 12 2018, 17:44

@Stark Raving Sane wrote:
I suppose Flocks were more of a sidegrade. I'm actually glad for the halving the number of attacks, since 8 attacks per model, rerolling all misses from the Beastmaster, was a serious pain unless you use a dice app.

I suppose my main issue is with the Beastmaster's aura. Changing rerolling all misses to rerolling 1's dramatically decreased the offensive power of all beast units.

I agree. Without the aura, Flocks, for example, end up with slightly fewer hits than the index version (4.44 vs 4.0) but those hits are at -1AP now, which I think makes up for that. But then the aura change means that even with the point reduction you're still doing less damage per point than the old version against most targets.

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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: Beasts units   Thu Apr 12 2018, 18:58

@Lord Asvaldir wrote:
Best beasts though might actually be the khymarae, cheapest, have an invul save and decent attacks.

Do you think 3 S4 AP0 D1 attacks is that good?

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withershadow
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PostSubject: Re: Beasts units   Thu Apr 12 2018, 19:22

That’s the output of wyches with +S combat drugs, so yeah, kind of. They fight better than assault marines. Razz

I think they may serve well as our bubble wrap against first turn charges. They take up a lot of board space with their bases.
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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Beasts units   Thu Apr 12 2018, 19:32

How big are those bases?

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withershadow
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PostSubject: Re: Beasts units   Thu Apr 12 2018, 19:48

The official models are on 40mm bases. So each one has a 19.57” circle of no deep striking here.

I intend to supplement them with 10 old Chaos Warhounds I have laying about, who are on 25x50 rectangular bases and should barely fit on a 40mm. Would probably look silly on 50mm.
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yellabelly
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PostSubject: Re: Beasts units   Thu Apr 12 2018, 19:54

40mm bases. I've been using pairs as deepstrike denial and backfield objective holders in the index. I'm not willing to pay an extra 36 points or whatever a beast master costs to be able to field them in that role. I would like to try a hunting pack backed up by fiends at some stage though. It might not be super competitive but I just like the idea of it.
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shadowseercB
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PostSubject: Re: Beasts units   Thu Apr 12 2018, 19:57

@Stark Raving Sane wrote:
I'm curious what others think of Beasts in the Codex. With the nerf to the Beastmaster's reroll aura, the fiends' high cost and terrible saves, and the relative nerf to razorwing flocks' number of attacks, I don't see much of a use for them.  I suppose flocks could still be used for mobile bubblewrapping, but with T2 and no saves they go down quick.

Is there some use that I'm missing?

Expensive points, lack of survivability for all 3 beasts (good luck getting into combat), expensive money wise. Not worth it imo. I was hopeing Khymera would get a -1 to hit since they are barely in the moral realm and/or get the old 4+ invulnerable save or 2 wounds.

Coven units do everything they do and better.

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RedRegicide
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PostSubject: Re: Beasts units   Thu Apr 12 2018, 20:00

I wish beasts were still as good, the khynera and fiends got an indirect nerf when everything else got a discount.

I think they are still useful, but I can’t find room for them in lists now that I am running so many smaller detatchments instead of my beloved brigade. (I like the new rules, but I do miss swimming in CP)

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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: Beasts units   Thu Apr 12 2018, 20:15

@withershadow wrote:
That’s the output of wyches with +S combat drugs, so yeah, kind of. They fight better than assault marines. Razz

Granted, but Wyches also have other tricks and special weapons, as well as benefiting from PfP and Obsessions.

I guess I'm just not fond of Assault units that have no AP (nor any ability to inflict Mortal Wounds or such).

Mandrakes are a little more expensive, but seem a great deal better.
- Have PfP
- Have good Ld without needing a Beastmaster
- Slightly worse toughness, but have the 6+++ from PfP and enemies get -1 to hit them
- Have the same number of attacks at the same strength but with AP-1
- Have 2 shots at 18" at S4 AP-1 that can inflict Mortal Wounds
- Can deep strike into position

And to top if off, they're only 2" slower than the Khymerae (and get to reroll charges from turn 2 onwards).

Given that they have no PfP, can't benefit from Obsessions, and need a Beastmaster babysitter, it just seems like they're missing something.

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Lord Asvaldir
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PostSubject: Re: Beasts units   Thu Apr 12 2018, 20:17

I don't think mandrakes are a good comparison to beasts, since they don't really fulfill the same roll. Except for clawed fiends, all the beast units are just screens and chaff, maybe in big units they can do some damage but that's about it. Mandrakes on the other hand are good damage dealers, and it's not a great chance for them to assault anyway in the turn they deep strike in.

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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: Beasts units   Thu Apr 12 2018, 20:28

@Lord Asvaldir wrote:
I don't think mandrakes are a good comparison to beasts, since they don't really fulfill the same roll.

Ah, okay. I just picked Mandrakes because they seemed quite comparable in stats and such (WS3+, S4, A3, 5++ etc.).

@Lord Asvaldir wrote:
Except for clawed fiends, all the beast units are just screens and chaff, maybe in big units they can do some damage but that's about it.

But what do you use them for exactly? Is it just blocking deep strike?

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withershadow
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PostSubject: Re: Beasts units   Thu Apr 12 2018, 21:11

Pretty much, they are screens that absorb initial casualties. T4 and 5++ is decent, although I agree they really needed an extra wound or 4++ to justify the 10 point price tag.

They are the best option out of the beasts I think, which granted isn’t saying much.
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