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Melkor
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PostSubject: Wych Weapon?   Thu Apr 12 2018, 13:00

Hello! Today I am trying to decide on weapon loadouts for Wych squads. I do have some thoughts, and wonder if you'd like to expand them.

1. Every squad needs exactly 1 Shardnet and Impaler, or be escorted by a Succubus with such. Wyches need to be in melee constantly, and I don't see them killing a lot of units in 1 fight. That said, Impalers don't seem worth it intrinsically, so I just want one.

2. Hit rerolls are easy to come by, Wound rerolls are not. Wounds will also fail a lot more often the hits, given PfP. Therfore, Hydra Gauntlets are always(?) better than Razorflails.

3. I'm not sure how to load out the Hekatrix, other than that I don't want power swords unless I'm running a Str 5 build.
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Mikoneo
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PostSubject: Re: Wych Weapon?   Thu Apr 12 2018, 13:38

1 shardent and impaler, 2 hydra gauntlets and leader with agoniser
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|Meavar
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PostSubject: Re: Wych Weapon?   Thu Apr 12 2018, 14:46

1) Don't underestimate the girls, they can throw out a large number of attacks, so they actually can wipe out units in round (10 wyches will kill around 6/7 MEQ or 16 GEQ)
And if you take a unit with cursed blade cult 3 impalers and a powersword, you can take the attack drug and go TEQ hunting or bikers with +s drug (killing around 3 of them in both cases for a unit costing less than 100 points) And against primaris they are even better.

2) Gauntlet's are slightly more reliable than razorflails, but it depends a little bit on the obsession and drug. Razorflails actually give more attacks, so if you are cult of the cursed blade and have a unit with str drugs, you might prefer razorflails and the reroll to hit might be usefull when you are not keeping close to your succubus.

3) Depends a lot on the enemy, I actually think it is a choice now, but actually prefer the powersword. I like the cursed blade for my wyches and than all of them will be s4 at least, which means against GEQ MEQ TEQ etc the powersword is better than the agonizer. On the other hand if you don't take either the str drug or the cursed blade obsession (you need to waste a bad drug for instance) you are better off with the agonizer.
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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: Wych Weapon?   Thu Apr 12 2018, 17:01

1) Personally, I'd always give the Shardnet and Impailer to the Wyches, since they seem wasted on a Succubus (even if you run out of Relics, she's still probably better with an Agoniser or Hydra Gauntlets). The only exception would be if I planned to run her with a non-Wych squad.

2) This is my view as well.

3) I'd probably go with Agoniser and Blast Pistol.


Also, HERO's blog might be of interest to you:

http://lkhero.blogspot.co.uk/2018/04/de-time-to-try-out-some-wyches.html
http://lkhero.blogspot.co.uk/2018/04/de-different-take-on-wyches.html

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wormfromhell
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PostSubject: Re: Wych Weapon?   Thu Apr 12 2018, 23:08

Blast pistol synergises really well with the shard net as you get a DL that you can fire at the enemies face, which he can't do anything about.

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Melkor
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PostSubject: Re: Wych Weapon?   Thu Apr 12 2018, 23:43

You have convinced me to try out Str 4 Powerswords.
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Gazbal
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PostSubject: Re: Wych Weapon?   Fri Apr 13 2018, 00:26

I'm not sure if S4 wyches or S5 wyches are better.

S5 is possible with cursed blade obsession and +1 Str drug. Wyches with this configuration would have 3 attacks each (2 base +1 for weapons).

But the alternative is to get S4 from Cursed blade or drugs and use Strife or drugs for an additional attack.
So S4 wyches with 4 attacks each - and you could field 2 units like this.

Anyone want to chime in on which is better with math?
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Kantalla
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PostSubject: Re: Wych Weapon?   Fri Apr 13 2018, 00:52

If you are considering between S4 and S5 Wyches:

S4 Wyches with 4 attacks have 4/3 the attacks of S5 Wyches with 3 attacks.

Hit rolls, save rolls and FNP rolls will be the same for either configuration, so it depends on the target toughness as to which Wych does more damage.

T2: S4 wound on 2+ / S5 wound on 2+. Ratio 1/1
T3: S4 3+ / S5 3+. Ratio 1/1
T4: S4 4+ / S5 3+. Ratio 3/4
T5: S4 5+ / S5 4+. Ratio 2/3
T6: S4 5+ / S5 5+. Ratio 1/1
T7: S4 5+ / S5 5+. Ratio 1/1
T8: S4 6+ / S5 5+. Ratio 1/2

Against T4 both options are equal. Against T5 and T8 the S5 Wyches are better, and against T2, T3, T6 and T7 the S4 Wyches are better. In most cases that means S4 Wyches are the better choice unless you are up against a particular opponent with lots of T5.

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wormfromhell
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PostSubject: Re: Wych Weapon?   Fri Apr 13 2018, 00:54

http://www.thedarkcity.net/t17454-medicinal-distribution check this out.

going from S4 to S5 gives
T3- no benefit
T4- +33% damage
T5- +50% damage
T6- no benefit

going from S4 3A to S4 4A gives a flat +33% benefit against all targets.

so..
facing lots of T3- go for S4 extra attacks
facing lots of T4- either, they do the same
facing lots of T5- go for S5
facing lots of T6+ go for attacks, except for T8 & T9, go for +1S

ultimately, most targets that wyches will be fighting are T3-T4, so they are better off with S4 +1A, although if you are facing monsters it becomes more complex. for T5,8 & 9, go for +1S, while T6 & 7 are better with +1A.

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Gazbal
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PostSubject: Re: Wych Weapon?   Fri Apr 13 2018, 01:00

Thanks!
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helvexis
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PostSubject: Re: Wych Weapon?   Fri Apr 13 2018, 04:29

on an alternate note ... if you need that many str5 attacks consider helions of the cursed blade.

onto the topic at hand ...the d3 attacks+ to hit rerolls from the razorflails just seems like a better option most of the time especially with cursed blade making your to wound rolls that much more reliable against marines.

i havent mathed it yet though. I have been lazy
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Lord Asvaldir
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PostSubject: Re: Wych Weapon?   Fri Apr 13 2018, 06:54

Honestly for 10 man wych units, I'm probably just going to keep it easy and go for one of each weapon in a wych unit. I've had to go on ebay to grab enough little weapon bits (blasters in particular), with wych weapons all being fairly equal I'm ok with just settling with what's in the box. That being said, you'll always want a shardnet&impaler to keep units locked in, but besides that I'll be sticking to 50/50 for hydra gauntlets and razorflails.

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Quauchtemoc
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PostSubject: Re: Wych Weapon?   Fri Apr 13 2018, 08:04

@helvexis wrote:
on an alternate note ... if you need that many str5 attacks consider helions of the cursed blade.

onto the topic at hand ...the  d3 attacks+ to hit rerolls from the razorflails just seems like a better option most of the time especially with cursed blade making your to wound rolls that much more reliable against marines.

i havent mathed it yet though. I have been lazy

With a succubus near the Gauntlet are better, without i'm not sure
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withershadow
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PostSubject: Re: Wych Weapon?   Fri Apr 13 2018, 09:14

I just did this rough and dirty math.

Assuming S4/3 attack base hitting T4.

Hydra gauntlets no Succubus - 4x.66x.75 = 2 wounds before saves
Hydra gauntlets with Succubus - 4x .77x.75 = 2.3
Razorflails - 4or5or6 x.89x.5 = 1.78, 2.23, 2.67

Vs T3
4x .66 x .89 = 2.35
4x .77 x .89 = 2.75
4or5or6 x .89 x .66 = 2.35, 2.9, 3.5

So seems flails actually win out marginally against typical targets.

My most regular opponent plays Death Guard and Custodes, so I will be trying the triple Impaler squad.

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Quauchtemoc
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PostSubject: Re: Wych Weapon?   Fri Apr 13 2018, 09:47

Ah yes i did the stat with 4A S4 , because its the most damage against T4 with all the weapon
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Dawnstone
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PostSubject: Re: Wych Weapon?   Fri Apr 13 2018, 11:17

With Cursed Blade, I'd give your +1S unit Razorflails and your +1A unit Hydra Gauntlets, in addition to one Shardnet in both units. For the Hekatrix, I prefer the power sword for s4 and s5 Wyches as it's better against more common targets like MEQs, GEQs and vehicles up to T7.

If you're running Cult of Strife, your +1A unit should definitely run Hydra Gauntlets + Agoniser. Gotta make up for that strength 3.
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Gazbal
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PostSubject: Re: Wych Weapon?   Fri Apr 13 2018, 12:09

Related question.

Wyches in larger units?

ie. up to 10 you have the advantage of a raider transport so you can be more mobile
and of course use the raider for disruptive purposes.

But 10 wyches is not that many. Especially as drugs are limited in that you can only pick them once for each unit.
So generally is it better to slog accross the table on foot with a 20 wych unit and rely on terrain and other threats to keep them whole before battle?
Or will you lose more than the 10 model buffer on your way in?

I'm going to try out the 20 model unit this weekend as I generally play with quite a bit of LOS blocking terrain.

But i'm curious about what others have tried.
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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: Wych Weapon?   Fri Apr 13 2018, 14:39

So Gauntlets vs Razorflail is pretty much a fashion question? THey are pretty close?

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Quauchtemoc
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PostSubject: Re: Wych Weapon?   Fri Apr 13 2018, 15:07

@Gazbal wrote:
Related question.

Wyches in larger units?

ie. up to 10 you have the advantage of a raider transport so you can be more mobile
and of course use the raider for disruptive purposes.

But 10 wyches is not that many. Especially as drugs are limited in that you can only pick them once for each unit.
So generally is it better to slog accross the table on foot with a 20 wych unit and rely on terrain and other threats to keep them whole before battle?
Or will you lose more than the 10 model buffer on your way in?

I'm going to try out the 20 model unit this weekend as I generally play with quite a bit of LOS blocking terrain.

But i'm curious about what others have tried.

The problem of big whych squad is moral, because you want to go red grief to compensate the lack of transport but you also need the cursed blade "immune to moral"
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Lord Asvaldir
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PostSubject: Re: Wych Weapon?   Fri Apr 13 2018, 16:44

You don't need red grief if you wwp them in, which is what I'd always do for 20 man wych units. I can be ok with footslogging kabalites especially with obsidian rose, but wyches never I think, so they'd be cursed blade and use wwp to get up close. Only problem of course is a 9" with rerolls is not a guarantee at all. Pre-codex when I didn't have enough raiders I use to wwp in 10 wyches, and it was very hit or miss. For every game they made contact, there was another game they failed the charge and got obliterated to shooting.

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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: Wych Weapon?   Fri Apr 13 2018, 16:59

@Quauchtemoc wrote:
The problem of big whych squad is moral, because you want to go red grief to compensate the lack of transport but you also need the cursed blade "immune to moral"

The other aspect is that larger squads don't get you anything beyond more standard mooks.

A 20-man squad can have 1 Agoniser, 1 Blast Pistol and 3 Wych weapons
Two 10-man squads can have 2 Agonisers, 2 Blast Pistols and 6 Wych weapons
Four 5-man squads can have 4 Agonisers, 4 Blast Pistols and 4 Wych weapons

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HERO
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PostSubject: Re: Wych Weapon?   Fri Apr 13 2018, 17:10

@Soulless Samurai wrote:
@Quauchtemoc wrote:
The problem of big whych squad is moral, because you want to go red grief to compensate the lack of transport but you also need the cursed blade "immune to moral"

The other aspect is that larger squads don't get you anything beyond more standard mooks.

A 20-man squad can have 1 Agoniser, 1 Blast Pistol and 3 Wych weapons
Two 10-man squads can have 2 Agonisers, 2 Blast Pistols and 6 Wych weapons
Four 5-man squads can have 4 Agonisers, 4 Blast Pistols and 4 Wych weapons

I prefer the 2x5 squads because of the extra special weapons and Agonizers. You can put 2x5 into a Raider.
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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: Wych Weapon?   Fri Apr 13 2018, 17:31

@HERO wrote:
@Soulless Samurai wrote:
@Quauchtemoc wrote:
The problem of big whych squad is moral, because you want to go red grief to compensate the lack of transport but you also need the cursed blade "immune to moral"

The other aspect is that larger squads don't get you anything beyond more standard mooks.

A 20-man squad can have 1 Agoniser, 1 Blast Pistol and 3 Wych weapons
Two 10-man squads can have 2 Agonisers, 2 Blast Pistols and 6 Wych weapons
Four 5-man squads can have 4 Agonisers, 4 Blast Pistols and 4 Wych weapons

I prefer the 2x5 squads because of the extra special weapons and Agonizers.  You can put 2x5 into a Raider.

Yeah, I think this would be my pick as well.

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Lord Asvaldir
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PostSubject: Re: Wych Weapon?   Fri Apr 13 2018, 20:54

10 mans get more wych cult weapons though, and that would be my preference over agonizers and blast pistols. Especially if you're making wyches s4, or even 5 it's better to have a mix of more razorflails/hydra gauntlets over agonizers. Plus I just don't like 5 man squads for assault units, if they start taking any casualties to shooting they rapidly start becoming too small. Plus when it comes to activations, better to have larger squads that can active first instead of being split up.

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Quauchtemoc
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PostSubject: Re: Wych Weapon?   Sat Apr 14 2018, 01:05

5 men is good for a red grief unit, with a shardnet its very annoying and pretty fast. For other obsession ist meh cause they reallt shine with the offensive drug and thats far more easier to get with 10 men squad
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