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 Poisoned Tongue - What's the point?

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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: Poisoned Tongue - What's the point?   Thu Apr 12 2018, 16:51

@The Strange Dark One wrote:
I can see what you thought of a Blaster Archon, but considering the Relics and Warlord traits I think Obsidian Rose does have a very strong Archon melee build.

The armory of misery is good, but not a must have choice, however I think the additional damage is. You are guaranteed to kill 2 wound models instantly and your average damage goes from 2 on average to 3.

Oh, I don't disagree with that. I'm just not sure how important this build is to a footslogging army, if you see what I mean.

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PostSubject: Re: Poisoned Tongue - What's the point?   Thu Apr 12 2018, 17:15

Yeah I agree the obsidian rose trait is going to be handy on any archon, just raises his damage output in assault and shooting.

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PostSubject: Re: Poisoned Tongue - What's the point?   Fri Apr 13 2018, 02:01

Poisoned Tongue (on foot) is our best anti-horde option, along with Wyches.

With extra and more effective Blasters we should be good against the big stuff. Horde wise, cheaper Warriors slightly improves us against hordes, but not massively. Poisoned Tongue with an Archon buff is the best option we have to counter things like hordes of Cultists.

That said, I would still feel more comfortable going Obsidian Rose for blobs on foot.

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PostSubject: Re: Poisoned Tongue - What's the point?   Fri Apr 13 2018, 10:16

@Kantalla wrote:

That said, I would still feel more comfortable going Obsidian Rose for blobs on foot.

If going for blobs or backfield sit and shoot I agree, for any non blob marching up the table I think I prefer the tongue.
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PostSubject: Re: Poisoned Tongue - What's the point?   Fri Apr 13 2018, 10:59

I suspect we will find that where the poisoned tongue will really shine is for Sslyth.

Move, shoot 3 poison shots each rerolling failed hits due to Archon and 1's to wound, then charge for 3 S5 AP -1 attacks rerolling failed hits and 1's to wound.

Move shoot charge is what I see this kabal doing REALLY well. Sslyth are just our best move shoot charge unit.
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PostSubject: Re: Poisoned Tongue - What's the point?   Fri Apr 13 2018, 13:12

@FuelDrop wrote:
I suspect we will find that where the poisoned tongue will really shine is for Sslyth.

Move, shoot 3 poison shots each rerolling failed hits due to Archon and 1's to wound, then charge for 3 S5 AP -1 attacks rerolling failed hits and 1's to wound.

Move shoot charge is what I see this kabal doing REALLY well. Sslyth are just our best move shoot charge unit.

The thing is, PT are also the best Kabal for Lhamaeans. And with just 4 Court models per detachment (regardless of how many Archons you have, because that makes sense Rolling Eyes ), there's going to be quite a bit of competition for those slots.

I do agree with you - it's just unfortunate that Sslyth are competing with another good PT unit for a very limited slot.

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PostSubject: Re: Poisoned Tongue - What's the point?   Fri Apr 13 2018, 13:35

And of course a poisoned tongue archon with a venom blade is more or less "Make 5 saving throws" once he reaches melee. 6, if you take soul thirst and charge. Combine with the Parasite's Kiss for no less than 8 shots at regaining lost wounds on a shoot and charge round. Fun.

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PostSubject: Re: Poisoned Tongue - What's the point?   Fri Apr 13 2018, 15:11

@FuelDrop wrote:
And of course a poisoned tongue archon with a venom blade is more or less "Make 5 saving throws" once he reaches melee. 6, if you take soul thirst and charge. Combine with the Parasite's Kiss for no less than 8 shots at regaining lost wounds on a shoot and charge round. Fun.

That's quite amusing. Just a shame that it seems almost moot once the Archon fails his Shadowfield save.

I am curious though - what do you think of Parasite's Kiss in general?

Also, how do you rate the Venom Blade against the Agoniser?

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PostSubject: Re: Poisoned Tongue - What's the point?   Fri Apr 13 2018, 16:36

Venom blade is just a budget weapon, in most cases I'd rather have the agonizer. I'll use a venom blade archon as my budget archon, but for any archon that actually want to be in melee I'd go for agonizer or huskblade.

Parisite's kiss is a solid pistol, but if you're playing poisoned tongue may as well use their cool sniping pistol.

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PostSubject: Re: Poisoned Tongue - What's the point?   Fri Apr 13 2018, 17:42

This is why I like the Obsidian Veil. Doesn’t matter how badass you are if you have no save, you gonna die.
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PostSubject: Re: Poisoned Tongue - What's the point?   Fri Apr 13 2018, 17:58

@withershadow wrote:
This is why I like the Obsidian Veil. Doesn’t matter how badass you are if you have no save, you gonna die.

I'd like to try an Archon with Obsidian Veil and Soul Thirst.

(Armour of Misery might also work, but I'm wary of having no invulnerable save once the Shadowfield fails.)

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PostSubject: Re: Poisoned Tongue - What's the point?   Fri Apr 13 2018, 18:33

It’s a tough choice between famed savagery and soul thirst.
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PostSubject: Re: Poisoned Tongue - What's the point?   Fri Apr 13 2018, 19:17

@withershadow wrote:
It’s a tough choice between famed savagery and soul thirst.

I really wish Alliance of Agony would allow us to give extra Archons Warlord Traits as well. There are so many Warlord traits I want to try.

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PostSubject: Re: Poisoned Tongue - What's the point?   Fri Apr 13 2018, 19:37

I prefer the healing from soul thirst over famed savagery
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PostSubject: Re: Poisoned Tongue - What's the point?   Fri Apr 13 2018, 19:38

@withershadow wrote:
This is why I like the Obsidian Veil. Doesn’t matter how badass you are if you have no save, you gonna die.

Actually my thinking is the exact opposite. If I take the djinn blade and famed savagery, I'll charge in with those 8 s5 attacks and hopefully kill the opposing character before he can strike, eliminating the need for obsidian viel.

Soul thirst vs famed savagery somewhat comes down to more offense vs defense. I'd rather have the extra offensive output from s5 for the first round of combat.

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PostSubject: Re: Poisoned Tongue - What's the point?   Fri Apr 13 2018, 19:44

What about Hatred Eternal?

I don't know it's not quite as good in combat, but it does give you rerolls at range with your Blaster/Blast Pistol.

@Mikoneo wrote:
I prefer the healing from soul thirst over famed savagery

Same. Partially for the effect and partially because I like the idea of a vampiric Archon. Twisted Evil

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PostSubject: Re: Poisoned Tongue - What's the point?   Fri Apr 13 2018, 19:46

Hatred eternal is tempting for me, trait I'd consider besides famed savagery, and if I wasn't running flayed skull I'd probably run hatred eternal.

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PostSubject: Re: Poisoned Tongue - What's the point?   Fri Apr 13 2018, 23:25

If my Archon was going horde busting, say carving through ork boyz, I would go Venom Blade/poison tongue. the virtual guarantee to wound is really good against orks, and they don't have much of a save. The above archon configuration is pretty much 7 kills a turn on average, which is pretty meaty. And you just need to cling to life by a single wound to get back up to full next turn.

Is venom Blade or Agonizer better against IG? Because they're not exactly packing heavy saves...
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PostSubject: Re: Poisoned Tongue - What's the point?   Sat Apr 14 2018, 00:21

Hatred eternal does have its place though, it really comes into its own and is better than famed savegery on a djin blade and the agoniser. The reroll effects every attack, and acts as a big force multiplier.
The only reason famed sav is bettter than it with the husk blade is the additional +s. Without that HE is better.

But soul thirst, why not that one? Getting wounds back for being a beat stick seems cool. Especially as poisoned tongue, where you get half the reroll already(assuming not a relic)
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PostSubject: Re: Poisoned Tongue - What's the point?   Sat Apr 14 2018, 01:01

@FuelDrop wrote:
Is venom Blade or Agonizer better against IG? Because they're not exactly packing heavy saves...
Huskblade is better against Guardsmen than either of the other options.

Venom blade against Orks, but not much else.

Fairly hard to find a place where Agonisers win - single wound T5 or above models.

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PostSubject: Re: Poisoned Tongue - What's the point?   Sat Apr 14 2018, 01:11

I personally can see the venom blade being rather solid against the likes of 'nid fodder (2+ wounding is nice, and they aren't exactly heavily armoured), Orks (high toughness means nothing!), Cultists (pretty much anything with a 6+)

I would also say Venom Blade is great vs Daemons. Might be where it is best tbh. No amount of AP gets through that invulnerable save anyway, and the Venom blade is very reliable for wounding. DE in general really do well vs Daemons.
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PostSubject: Re: Poisoned Tongue - What's the point?   Sat Apr 14 2018, 01:26

@Soulless Samurai wrote:
@withershadow wrote:
It’s a tough choice between famed savagery and soul thirst.

I really wish Alliance of Agony would allow us to give extra Archons Warlord Traits as well. There are so many Warlord traits I want to try.
The fact that it doesn’t leads me to believe it will be ruled/FAQd to be used only once. Basically only one warlord per sub-faction.

@Lord Asvaldir wrote:
@withershadow wrote:
This is why I like the Obsidian Veil. Doesn’t matter how badass you are if you have no save, you gonna die.

Actually my thinking is the exact opposite. If I take the djinn blade and famed savagery, I'll charge in with those 8 s5 attacks and hopefully kill the opposing character before he can strike, eliminating the need for obsidian viel.

Soul thirst vs famed savagery somewhat comes down to more offense vs defense. I'd rather have the extra offensive output from s5 for the first round of combat.  
Only weaker characters will die to that, and pretty much any damage coming your way after the field goes down is certain death. You average 5 wounds vs a MEQ 4++ character. High chance of failure.
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PostSubject: Re: Poisoned Tongue - What's the point?   Sat Apr 14 2018, 02:09

I agree with the webway comment. Drop in 20, shoot, let your melee guys vehicle charge in, then your melee guys and heck, try for they re roll 9” charge with your blob of 20 to really prevent any escapes

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PostSubject: Re: Poisoned Tongue - What's the point?   Sat Apr 14 2018, 15:29

Also are razorwing jet fighters worth it for PT? Necrotoxin missiles and a splinter cannon along with some anti tank

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PostSubject: Re: Poisoned Tongue - What's the point?   Sat Apr 14 2018, 19:13

I played Flayed Skull today, and I can say, i totally see the point with Poisoned Tongue :

The thing is, when i want to overthrow the game and deal as much raw damage as i can, here's what i do :

Disembark everything
Rapid fire
Charge

It puts the enemy in such a defensive position/mindset, if you do it at the right time you pretty much always win. You pretty much seize the initiative.


If you are into that strategy, Poisoned tongue is amazing, and i will probably play it from now on.

- You can disembark without losing your bonuses
- If you do so, you can reroll 1's to hit (archon) AND wound (PT)
- You keep your bonuses even when your transport is dead
- You have that extra bonus in CC (not a lot, but it helps)

Add the relic (that looks very appealing), and I think i'm playing Poisoned Tongue from now on.

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