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 Poisoned Tongue - What's the point?

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The Strange Dark One
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PostSubject: Poisoned Tongue - What's the point?   Wed Apr 11 2018, 21:19

Every Kabals seems to have it's niche to fill in, with exception of the Poisoned Tongue.

Black Heart: CP generation, 6+++ on vehicles and the occassional pfp shenanigans
Flayed Skull: Vehicles ignore cover, gunboat buffs, extra vehicle movement
Obsidian Rose: Best Warrior spam allaround and highest threat range of all Kabals.

Where does that leave the Poisoned Tongue?
Most Poisoned peapons are Rapid Fire, so the Flayed Skull is just equally strong in that regard along with other bonuses (movement, ignore cover). The PT poison buff also applies to Kabalites on foot, but if you omit the Raider completely you are likely better off with Obsidian Rose.

Granted, PT Warriors keep their re-rolls once their transport is blown up. But at that point it's too little too late.
Another case can be made for the Necrotoxin Missiles with re-rolls, but Flayed Skull provides you with ignore cover instead. On all the weapons.

Splinter Pistols are either being replaced by a Blast Pistol or not taken when given as an option (Syberite). And the Sslyth's Shardcarbines are insignificant in terms of shooting.

And even IF you want a melee focused Kabal (Court, Warrior's and Archon) you take Black Heart for a great PfP as well as other bonuses (CP generation and re-rolling wounds with the trait).

Finally, despite having re-rolls in melee, their Archon isn't top-tier either. The HQ trait is essentially useless and other factions allow for far superior Archon builds. And the re-rolls not affecting relics adds insult to injury.

TL;DR
The edge cases where Poisoned Tongue is better than other factions occur rather rarely and overall they seem to buff the weakest parts of a Kabalite force. As a faction, they are a weak generalist and master of none.

I wonder, does anybody see something that I missed?

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AzraeI
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PostSubject: Re: Poisoned Tongue - What's the point?   Wed Apr 11 2018, 22:03

of course you missed something, if everyone hates the poisoned tongue, nobody asks for a lady malys model with rules
*grabs tinfoil *
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Dark Elf Dave
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PostSubject: Re: Poisoned Tongue - What's the point?   Wed Apr 11 2018, 22:12

I think you are right they look weak in comparison.

I think when you look at the many DE traits as a race. Fast, hard hitting, tactical upper hand, cause fear, death from a thousand cuts etc etc etc then you have to apply some of that to chapter traits or for us obsessions...but then they have to split the obsessions between 3 different factions as well. So the variety has been split up.

I think they tried to find an obsession that used poison better than anyone else but they didn’t quite get it right IMO. I wonder if +1 to wound with poison worked out to be too strong???
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PostSubject: Re: Poisoned Tongue - What's the point?   Wed Apr 11 2018, 22:16

One thing I'll say first off - GW can go straight to hell with all the Obsession rerolls and such not working with Artefacts. No other race gets that kind of crap, so why are we lumbered with it? Why is it fine for Succubi to have +1S or +1A with their artefacts, but an Archon rerolling 1s with his is suddenly overpowered? Were they afraid that DE players might accidentally exceed the relation amount of fun?

That aside, I know exactly what you mean with regard to Poison Tongue. I really want to like them, especially since (IMO) they have one of the most interesting artefacts. However, it really does seem like they're missing something. Maybe it would have been better to rename 'Agents of Vect' and swap it for their stratagem (it would certainly fit their fluff)?

As it stands, they're in a weird position where their units want to stay in their transports and shoot, but their Obsession wants them to disembark and charge.  Neutral

Was there some Kabal melee unit that was dropped at the last minute?


Anyway, if you're interested, I was recently messing around with an aggressive strategy for PT:

http://www.thedarkcity.net/t17467-poison-tongue-disembarking-strategy

(I don't know if it's any good - just toying around with ideas.)


@Dark Elf Dave wrote:

I think they tried to find an obsession that used poison better than anyone else but they didn’t quite get it right IMO. I wonder if +1 to wound with poison worked out to be too strong???

I think the issue is that Flayed Skull gets basically the same rule (since virtually all poison weapons are Rapid Fire), except it synergises with Splinter Racks and they get 2 other abilities as well.

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Britishgrotesque
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PostSubject: Re: Poisoned Tongue - What's the point?   Wed Apr 11 2018, 22:38

I see poisoned tongue as the middle ground between the two. Good in both vehicles and on the ground.

They are the only Kabal which buffs court and archon well, and although they don't ignore cover, they still dish out decent damage. Their obsession is a catch all trait as almost everything has access to poisoned weapons.

The weakness of flayed skull is if the transport dies they are useless, and in reality the ignoring cover is seen as the weakest of the SM abilities. After turn 2/3 this obsession will have much less value than the other 3 kabals

I think poisoned tongue is much closer than people give credit for, and the stratagem and artefact is great.

The stratagem can allow you to deploy much more aggressively for first turn, if you go second, just redeploy to safety. Or vice versa if you have more drops, so are more likely to go second.

The artefact alone can end someone's strategy. 18" is the venoms and slyths range. It is meant to be a venom command boat to snipe characters and take out those large blobs (dark apostle and cultists anyone?)

Not saying it's the strongest but I think people aren't seeing the synergies.
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PostSubject: Re: Poisoned Tongue - What's the point?   Wed Apr 11 2018, 22:52

I happily ran some Poisoned Tongue the other day. I generally think they are worth it in two scenarios:

- Webway strike 20 Warriors
- Mounted in a Black Heart Raider
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PostSubject: Re: Poisoned Tongue - What's the point?   Wed Apr 11 2018, 23:04

Hmmm. I am kinda seeing them as being a good Archon Supported Kabal for reroll 1's to hit and wound, combined with shoot-and-charge tactics to make full use of their abilities.

Just my two cents, but having them fully capitalise on being buffed at both range and melee seems to be the best way to use them. Use a stratagem to fall back shoot and charge again if needed.
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PostSubject: Re: Poisoned Tongue - What's the point?   Wed Apr 11 2018, 23:21

Agree with Britishgrotesque - the poisoned tongue stratagem in particular lets you play an alpha strike fakeout. Put your three hardest hitting units down first, right where they can most directly threaten the enemy. If he deploys to match and wins first turn, stratagem lets you redeploy to safety. But if you win the roll, you get the alpha and probably win- combine with cloudstrike/webway and scourges or mandrakes, and you could easily create an army where deployment is almost meaningless.
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PostSubject: Re: Poisoned Tongue - What's the point?   Wed Apr 11 2018, 23:33

@Creeping Darkness wrote:
Agree with Britishgrotesque - the poisoned tongue stratagem in particular lets you play an alpha strike fakeout. Put your three hardest hitting units down first, right where they can most directly threaten the enemy. If he deploys to match and wins first turn, stratagem lets you redeploy to safety. But if you win the roll, you get the alpha and probably win- combine with cloudstrike/webway and scourges or mandrakes, and you could easily create an army where deployment is almost meaningless.

Alternative: 6-drop transports, 3 on each flank. whichever flank the enemy commits on, move to the other flank. if he commits on both, move your heavy hitters to the centre to be reinforced by deep strikes.
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PostSubject: Re: Poisoned Tongue - What's the point?   Wed Apr 11 2018, 23:52

Granted I agree that poisoned tongue is probably the least competitive choice for the kabals, but that being said I think the massive complaints are a bit unwarranted. At least the trait is useful and will consistently buff your army no matter what sort of kabal list you build. Look at some other armies and their traits, and you'll see that some factions really have piss poor traits and stratagems. Just consider my poor word bearers, reroll ld is their legion trait and it maybe saves me 2-3 models a game, compared to an army wide reroll it's crap. There's certainly other examples like that so I'd be content that if you really want to run poisoned tongue because you like their fluff and still be competitive, you definetly can.

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Creeping Darkness
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PostSubject: Re: Poisoned Tongue - What's the point?   Thu Apr 12 2018, 01:28

@FuelDrop wrote:

Alternative: 6-drop transports, 3 on each flank. whichever flank the enemy commits on, move to the other flank. if he commits on both, move your heavy hitters to the centre to be reinforced by deep strikes.

Another good option. There are lots of variations really (opponent likes to use scouts, rangers etc to aggressively camp territory? Leave a corner open then redeploy on top of them - no 9" restriction on deployment!). So Poison Tongue is the Kabal of Deployment Shenanigans, with bonus rerolls to wound on poison and melee Smile

Granted the stratagem doesn't scale particularly well, as you only ever get 3 units, so if you regularly play 3,000 point games it might not help you out as much as it otherwise might.

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PostSubject: Re: Poisoned Tongue - What's the point?   Thu Apr 12 2018, 03:01

@Creeping Darkness wrote:


Granted the stratagem doesn't scale particularly well, as you only ever get 3 units, so if you regularly play 3,000 point games it might not help you out as much as it otherwise might.


Just realised that in low-point games, you might be able to redeploy your entire army! have three units in DS, and three raiders on the table. bluff with the first three DSers, then deploy the raiders, and after opponent deploy's, you redeploy!

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PostSubject: Re: Poisoned Tongue - What's the point?   Thu Apr 12 2018, 05:35

I could see the Poisoned Tongue trait being useful if you were going for a party bus. A squad of Kabalites four Lhaemeans and a Soul Seeker Archon-perhaps even with Hatred Eternal- hopping on a Splinter Rack Raider would be a one drop patrol, and a pretty good Character hunter. Kabalites can be overwatch sponges and Transport Sacrifice, while the Archon goes hunting. Aside from the Soul Seeker and Huskblade, you have eight 3+ attacks rerolling hits, with 2+ to wound rerolling 1's with a mortal wound on a 4+. The whole thing is only 166 points, and all those rerolls and mortal wounds will make even Guilleman crap his ornate armor.

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PostSubject: Re: Poisoned Tongue - What's the point?   Thu Apr 12 2018, 05:46

I wouldn’t bother with splinter racks to buff 4 rifles.

I think on foot is where this Kabal shines, preferably being deployed via the webway. With a supporting character running up, they can be quite devastating.

Also the raider itself gets nothing from the obsession. I think I’d run that Archon in a Venom with his waifus, and deep strike a big squad.
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PostSubject: Re: Poisoned Tongue - What's the point?   Thu Apr 12 2018, 08:50

Flayed Skull is al well and dandy until you realise your vehicles are made out of cardboard and once you get disembarked you might as well be playing the index becouse you get no bonuses whatsoever.

Flayed Skull is for alphastrike.
Poisoned tongue is for sustained damage.

Also, neurotoxin missiles are pretty mean with Poisoned Tongue.

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PostSubject: Re: Poisoned Tongue - What's the point?   Thu Apr 12 2018, 10:18

I really like poisoned tongue.

I agree with bizarre showbiz.
I have not yet played that much games in so far, so maybe I am seeing things wrong, but I often lose part of the transports and most others disembark to contest objectives so the enemy cannot just capture them. As mentioned by others flayed skull just becomes without obsession as soon as transports are destroyed or you disembark. Flayed skull would probably work fine in turn 1 and maybe 2, but from turn 3 onward at least with my play style I get more from poisoned tongue.
Also from turn 3+ nearly everything hits combat, so then those bonusses are really nice. The only thing I do not like them for are ravagers and flyers.

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PostSubject: Re: Poisoned Tongue - What's the point?   Thu Apr 12 2018, 12:44

at least nothing has reroll ones if you dont move like every 3d army, but not even in commoragh you are save from the mighty reroll 1s
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PostSubject: Re: Poisoned Tongue - What's the point?   Thu Apr 12 2018, 12:45

I have a suspicion that Poisoned Tongue really shines when we're played as an on-foot horde army. 200 Kabalites that re-roll wounds when both shooting and fighting in melee honestly sounds pretty scary, and they only cost 1200 points giving you plenty of room for big guns and HQs.

It's completely against the way that I want to play Dark Eldar, and there's definitely an argument that Black Heart might be similarly good for that style of list, but on paper it looks like a strong option.
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PostSubject: Re: Poisoned Tongue - What's the point?   Thu Apr 12 2018, 12:45

@AzraeI wrote:
at least nothing has reroll ones if you dont move like every 3d army, but not even in commoragh you are save from the mighty reroll 1s

'Reroll 1s' could probably be the tagline of 8th edition at this point. Wink

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PostSubject: Re: Poisoned Tongue - What's the point?   Thu Apr 12 2018, 12:58

GW headquarter:
oh boi what do we know about this dumb sub faction whats it called? cardion? nihilistik? dork ankles?

ah very static, gunline type and it has this cool...

GIVE IT REROLL 1s WHILE NOT MOVING!!!

ok so we have the flayed skull here, very fast, lots of raiders and venoms, their archon was a reaver maybe we could...

GIVE IT REROLL 1s WHILE IN RAIDERS!!

AND THE CHARACTERS, they let them reroll 1s, too

which characters?
EVERYOOOOOOOOOOOOOONNNNNEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!
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PostSubject: Re: Poisoned Tongue - What's the point?   Thu Apr 12 2018, 14:38

What I kinda like about the poisoned tongue is their Insidious Misdirection strategem. 2 CP to redeploy up to 3 units (like transports) before the battle started.

Lost the initiative or tempted your opponent to deploy heavily on one side of the table due to your own "bad" unit placement? 2CP and he's up for a surprise. Add screaming jets and you can really create a confusing mess.
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PostSubject: Re: Poisoned Tongue - What's the point?   Thu Apr 12 2018, 14:48

@AzraeI wrote:
GW headquarter:
oh boi what do we know about this dumb sub faction whats it called? cardion? nihilistik? dork ankles?

ah very static, gunline type and it has this cool...

GIVE IT REROLL 1s WHILE NOT MOVING!!!

ok so we have the flayed skull here, very fast, lots of raiders and venoms, their archon was a reaver maybe we could...

GIVE IT REROLL 1s WHILE IN RAIDERS!!

AND THE CHARACTERS, they let them reroll 1s, too

which characters?
EVERYOOOOOOOOOOOOOONNNNNEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!*

*With the exception of those who take artifacts.
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PostSubject: Re: Poisoned Tongue - What's the point?   Thu Apr 12 2018, 15:04

Interesting. I completely forgot about the Stratagem. I still think Flayed Skull brings more versatility then Poisoned Tongue but I think this is something that needs to be put to test with further playtesting.

Flayed Skull's weakness of being limited to transports is a valid concern. Not so much right now, but once your meta gets aware of your weakness they can try to snipe our Raiders to greatly diminish your combat effectiveness.

I suppose with a better Warlord trait Poisoned Tongue could be a strong choice. But I'm not quite yet convinced. I also think a more MSU oriented approach with Flayed Skull Venoms would make the faction far less susceptible to your combat effectiveness getting deminished.

The combination of greater movement, ignoring cover AND re-rolls when embarked on transports is what kills it for me. Especially the movement.

@Burnage wrote:
I have a suspicion that Poisoned Tongue really shines when we're played as an on-foot horde army. 200 Kabalites that re-roll wounds when both shooting and fighting in melee honestly sounds pretty scary, and they only cost 1200 points giving you plenty of room for big guns and HQs.

It's completely against the way that I want to play Dark Eldar, and there's definitely an argument that Black Heart might be similarly good for that style of list, but on paper it looks like a strong option.

Frankly, I think Obsidian Rose does the "on foot" role far better than Poisoned Tongue.

You have a far greater threat range and you got a strong leadership stratagem. 24" Blasters, 18" Shredders, 15" Rapid Fire range for Rifles. And you can turn your Archon into a true melee monster.

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PostSubject: Re: Poisoned Tongue - What's the point?   Thu Apr 12 2018, 15:53

@The Strange Dark One wrote:

Frankly, I think Obsidian Rose does the "on foot" role far better than Poisoned Tongue.

You have a far greater threat range and you got a strong leadership stratagem. 24" Blasters, 18" Shredders, 15" Rapid Fire range for Rifles. And you can turn your Archon into a true melee monster.

I think there's arguments to be made for both. Obsidian Rose gets you extra range on all weapons, which is really nice. However, rerolling 1s on all poison weapons and in melee is also pretty good (especially given that you won't be able to escape melee via fast transports).

Also, given the inherent lack of mobility, the PT redeployment stratagem seems really useful for that sort of army. Depending on how big your blobs are, you're looking at being able to redeploy 30-60 models.

Regarding the Obsidian Rose Archon, I'm not sure why you'd want him to be melee. Surely he's better off firing a Blaster at 24" that does d6+1 damage? I mean, nothing else in your army wants to engage the enemy (if anything, one of the main benefits of their Obsession is that you can stat as far away from the enemy as possible). Now, granted, you might be forced to engage in melee at some point, but I don't think its something I'd want to specialise in. Even less so given that the Archon's aura is going to be pretty important for this sort of army.

I do wonder about a mix of Poison Tongue and Obsidian Rose. You could have Poison Tongue units at the front, ready to engage in melee when the enemy get close, with Obsidian Rose units behind them, taking advantage of their increased range.

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PostSubject: Re: Poisoned Tongue - What's the point?   Thu Apr 12 2018, 16:43

I can see what you thought of a Blaster Archon, but considering the Relics and Warlord traits I think Obsidian Rose does have a very strong Archon melee build.

The armory of misery is good, but not a must have choice, however I think the additional damage is. You are guaranteed to kill 2 wound models instantly and your average damage goes from 2 on average to 3.

That is only concerning the Huskblade, of course your Blast Pistol gets that bonus too.

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