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 Poison Tongue - Disembarking Strategy

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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Poison Tongue - Disembarking Strategy   Wed Apr 11 2018, 15:00

I think it's fair to say that Poison Tongue are regarded (not unfairly) as the weakest Kabal.

However, I was wondering if it was possible to take advantage of their Obsession by using them in a different way.

What if we aimed to disembark our Kablite Warriors as quickly as possible within rapid-fire range of the enemy, as well as an Archon to buff them.

Now they're rerolling 1s to hit via the Archon and rerolling 1s to wound from their own Obsession.

They could then charge the survivors (possibly with Agonisers on the Sabarites), again rerolling 1s to hit and to wound. Not amazing on their own, but they'll be backed up by the Archons (and probably a some Lhamaeans or such).

Thoughts?

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PostSubject: Re: Poison Tongue - Disembarking Strategy   Wed Apr 11 2018, 15:43

eh risky for ~1 more dead marine with pure splinter fire
but i played with a similar idea but deepstriking 20 of them in an opponents face to hinder its advance, 120 points base, not a bad deal, deepstriking the archon though, tough choice
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PostSubject: Re: Poison Tongue - Disembarking Strategy   Wed Apr 11 2018, 15:55

You shouldn't need to deep strike the archon, just have him start the game in a transport, jump out and advance, he's likely moving a good 14" unless you dropped your warriors way backfield.

Seems like an ok idea. I don't think poisoned tongue is bad, if my kabal was poisoned tongue I'd have no problem running them as that, it's just the other traits seem better. Doesn't help of course that their warlord trait is meh and their stratagem is just ok, but at least they have a nice relic.

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PostSubject: Re: Poison Tongue - Disembarking Strategy   Wed Apr 11 2018, 16:01

Dunno their strategem to replace up to 3 vehicles/transporter before the first turn doesn't sound that bad tbh
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PostSubject: Re: Poison Tongue - Disembarking Strategy   Wed Apr 11 2018, 16:10

@AzraeI wrote:
eh risky for ~1 more dead marine with pure splinter fire

Hmm, you might be right. That's rather a shame.

@AzraeI wrote:
but i played with a similar idea but deepstriking 20 of them in an opponents face to hinder its advance, 120 points base, not a bad deal, deepstriking the archon though, tough choice

That might work, but large blobs of warriors aren't really my thing.


@Lord Asvaldir wrote:

Seems like an ok idea. I don't think poisoned tongue is bad, if my kabal was poisoned tongue I'd have no problem running them as that, it's just the other traits seem better. Doesn't help of course that their warlord trait is meh and their stratagem is just ok, but at least they have a nice relic.

The relic is actually what drew me to them. For some reason the idea of a sniper-Archon really appeals to me. Twisted Evil

I agree with you that Poison Tongue is by no means bad. But, since I want to use it, I'm trying to think up strategies with it that aren't done better by one of the other 3 Kabals. Razz

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PostSubject: Re: Poison Tongue - Disembarking Strategy   Wed Apr 11 2018, 16:56

Yeah that might be tricky, but hey if you like the lore/color scheme of poisoned tongue, I'd say stick with it. Shame Lady Malys isn't a special character anymore, but I bet you could make a converted version of her fairly easily.

What you could do is just don't mount all your kabalites in transports. Certainly have some stay in the, but bring in maybe a big 20 man squad from the webway that your archon can buff. Also I'd probably take splinter cannons more often as poisoned tongue, more splinter shots means more rerolls. Maybe have your kabalites focus on anti-infantry duty, and bring in scourges as your tank busters.

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PostSubject: Re: Poison Tongue - Disembarking Strategy   Wed Apr 11 2018, 17:23

@Lord Asvaldir wrote:
Yeah that might be tricky, but hey if you like the lore/color scheme of poisoned tongue, I'd say stick with it. Shame Lady Malys isn't a special character anymore, but I bet you could make a converted version of her fairly easily.

That's a good idea. Out of interest, what would you give her in terms of wargear? The Djin Blade and the Helm of Spite both seem like they'd fit.

@Lord Asvaldir wrote:

What you could do is just don't mount all your kabalites in transports. Certainly have some stay in the, but bring in maybe a big 20 man squad from the webway that your archon can buff. Also I'd probably take splinter cannons more often as poisoned tongue, more splinter shots means more rerolls. Maybe have your kabalites focus on anti-infantry duty, and bring in scourges as your tank busters.  

That's probably a good tactic, but as above it's not really my thing.

Just to give you an idea, this is what I was messing around with:

Spoiler:
 

It was done more from a fluff perspective, with 3 Archons each leading their own raiding force (they each go in a Venom with their Lhamaeans).

However, I think it's too low on anti-tank (all I've really got is the Blasters on the Warrior squads and the Dark Lances on the Raider). I'm thinking it might be better to use 2 Archons in a Brigade, and then use the points I'll save to add in some Scourges as you suggest. Hopefully a Ravager as well.

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PostSubject: Re: Poison Tongue - Disembarking Strategy   Wed Apr 11 2018, 17:59

I'd probably give helm of spite to represent Lady Malys given she use to be immune to psychic powers back in 5th. Standard huskblade would do fine for her weapon, and then maybe give one of her lieutenants the sniping pistol.

Raiding force is kinda wasted on a pure kabalite army, go battalion plus spearhead or airwing at 2k. Seems like a solid list overall though, can't really go wrong with spamming kabalites, though if you go up to 2k it would be nice to add in ravagers/razorwings for fire support. Either of those options would solve all your anti-tank issues. 12 Lhamaens also seems like a lot, I'd probably go down to 8, especially since I'm not sure how you'd get that many modeling wise.

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PostSubject: Re: Poison Tongue - Disembarking Strategy   Wed Apr 11 2018, 18:14

Hey man, im also trying to run PT, trying to use the sniper archon for my leadership based alliance of agony.

RN my lists mostly consist of the 3 lam, one sslyth court, and a bunch of venoms, but im not quite happy yet.

basically Flayed skull is the best for having your venoms independent, black heart can mimic our venom gunline wiht their relic, giving them re rolls to hit and wound of 1, so where does that leave us?

Vs flayed skull: we can have feet on the ground
vs blackheart, can be independent of our archon/can be with her and not need the muse relic

which leaves us with:
flexibility to do both independent venoms and gunline
can use WW blobs
can engage in melee to box enemies in
relic for sniping key characters
and as a tiny insignificant benefit - our vehicles effectively have chains snares because they get re roll 1s in fight phase now lol


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PostSubject: Re: Poison Tongue - Disembarking Strategy   Wed Apr 11 2018, 18:34

I don't think anyone is running a venom gunline with black heart, 18" rapid fire range is way too short to have 4-5 venoms chilling backfield all huddled around one archon. You can use the living muse archon for black heart really well with ravagers, not venoms though.

Basically way I see poisoned tongue is it's less powerful than flayed skull in terms of the gunboat style list but you don't get the movement buff or ignores cover, but the one plus side you do get is your warriors get the rerolls all the time, not just in their transport so there's that at least. When it comes to list building that means poisoned tongue is a bit more forgiving if you want to footslog a few warriors, and at least it's a flexible trait.

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PostSubject: Re: Poison Tongue - Disembarking Strategy   Wed Apr 11 2018, 18:37

They have a good relic and a good stratagem. Their courts are the strongest too. I think the Webway 20-man Squad could do some work. I wouldn’t use them as more than a patrol in a Raiding Force though. The other obsessions work better with our vehicles.
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PostSubject: Re: Poison Tongue - Disembarking Strategy   Wed Apr 11 2018, 18:51

Their archons are also the best in melee, so if you want a small kabalite force to augment a melee force, its a good option

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PostSubject: Re: Poison Tongue - Disembarking Strategy   Wed Apr 11 2018, 19:50

@Lord Asvaldir wrote:
I'd probably give helm of spite to represent Lady Malys given she use to be immune to psychic powers back in 5th. Standard huskblade would do fine for her weapon, and then maybe give one of her lieutenants the sniping pistol.

Well, the one with the sniping pistol is going to be the warlord. Razz

@Lord Asvaldir wrote:
Raiding force is kinda wasted on a pure kabalite army, go battalion plus spearhead or airwing at 2k.  

Sadly, most of my army was bought from a friend, so I only own 1 aircraft and 1 Ravager at the moment. I'd like to at least get another Ravager at some point in the future, but that still won't be enough for a full Spearhead.

I could have an Outrider detachment with 3 units of Scourges if that's any good?

I think you're right Raiding Force being a waste. I've had a go at condensing this army into a Battalion (see below).

@Lord Asvaldir wrote:
Seems like a solid list overall though, can't really go wrong with spamming kabalites, though if you go up to 2k it would be nice to add in ravagers/razorwings for fire support. Either of those options would solve all your anti-tank issues. 12 Lhamaens also seems like a lot, I'd probably go down to 8, especially since I'm not sure how you'd get that many modeling wise.


Well, as above, I can add some Blaster or Haywire Scourges, plus a Ravager.

I think you might be right about the Lhamaeans. I'll remove one of the units (or 2 if I use a Battalion), and the sniper-Archon can chill with the Mandrakes or something. Wink


@RedRegicide wrote:
Hey man, im also trying to run PT, trying to use the sniper archon for my leadership based alliance of agony.

RN my lists mostly consist of the 3 lam, one sslyth court, and a bunch of venoms, but im not quite happy yet.

basically Flayed skull is the best for having your venoms independent, black heart can mimic our venom gunline wiht their relic, giving them re rolls to hit and wound of 1, so where does that leave us?

Vs flayed skull: we can have feet on the ground
vs blackheart, can be independent of our archon/can be with her and not need the muse relic

which leaves us with:
flexibility to do both independent venoms and gunline
can use WW blobs
can engage in melee to box enemies in
relic for sniping key characters
and as a tiny insignificant benefit - our vehicles effectively have chains snares because they get re roll 1s in fight phase now lol

Interesting, though I'm not really sure about the independence aspect compared to Black Heart. Otherwise, a lot of good points.

I really want to get some games in so that I can get a better feel for our units.


@RedRegicide wrote:
Their archons are also the best in melee, so if you want a small kabalite force to augment a melee force, its a good option

Well, I want to try some more melee based detachments involving Grotesques and Wyches, so that's good to know.


Also, I've had a go at making a similar list, but as a Battalion:

Spoiler:
 

The Djin Blade Archon will go with the Lhamaeans, the Soul Seeker Archon will go with the Mandrakes (no idea if this will work, just wanted to try it out). Also, if you're wondering, I'm not ignoring your advice regarding the Helm of Spite - I just want to see what the Djin Blade is like.

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PostSubject: Re: Poison Tongue - Disembarking Strategy   Wed Apr 11 2018, 20:20

Yeah, for pure kabal i agree with your list. I just posted my attempt on the army lists section.

If i were to make one change, I'd include more scourges (since thats what you have) just to boost your anti tank a bit

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PostSubject: Re: Poison Tongue - Disembarking Strategy   Wed Apr 11 2018, 20:27

@RedRegicide wrote:
Yeah, for pure kabal i agree with your list. I just posted my attempt on the army lists section.

If i were to make one change, I'd include more scourges (since thats what you have) just to boost your anti tank a bit

Yeah, I think that would be wise. I initially had a second squad with Blasters, but then I took them out because I wanted more Kabalites. Razz

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PostSubject: Re: Poison Tongue - Disembarking Strategy   Thu Apr 12 2018, 10:55

Do you want to stay pure kabal?

For me the poisoned tongue is so interesting because I usually drop my kabalites at midfield objectives and/or assault to keep scourges etc safe, while the wyches and court continue upfield.
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PostSubject: Re: Poison Tongue - Disembarking Strategy   Thu Apr 12 2018, 12:05

@|Meavar wrote:
Do you want to stay pure kabal?

Well, I wanted to use pure Kabal as proof of concept, if you see what I mean.

That said, I would like to play pure Kabal at least sometimes. Having about 40 Kabalites in various Venoms and Raiders appeals to the side of me that adores massed-infantry.

@|Meavar wrote:
For me the poisoned tongue is so interesting because I usually drop my kabalites at midfield objectives and/or assault to keep scourges etc safe, while the wyches and court continue upfield.

Ah, that's useful to know. Okay, I'll bear that tactic in mind when I start adding Coven or Cult stuff to the mix.

Could you maybe post your list? (Or link to it if it's already in the Army List section.)


EDIT: Oh, one other thing regarding pure Kabal - part of it was that this seemed like an 'all in' strategy. If you're only bringing 5 PT Kabalites, it's probably not worth disembarking them just for an Archon's aura. Razz

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PostSubject: Re: Poison Tongue - Disembarking Strategy   Thu Apr 12 2018, 15:12

@Soulless Samurai wrote:

Could you maybe post your list? (Or link to it if it's already in the Army List section.)

I prefer to play something like this, which I realise is probably to much cult for you.

1 archon
small court
3*5 kabalites (1 of them on foot)
venom + raider
mandrakes
scourges
razorwing

2 succubus
2*5 wyches
2* venom
2*3 reavers
7 hellions

It is a friendly 1250 points list. Against mechanized armies I might be to low on darklight, but since I play usually against orcs and nids, with some chaos and marines thrown in I don't really need it.
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PostSubject: Re: Poison Tongue - Disembarking Strategy   Thu Apr 12 2018, 15:16

Cheers, that's quite useful.

Is that split into 3 Patrols?

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