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 Drukhari Codex Damage Output Analysis

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Dalamar
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PostSubject: Re: Drukhari Codex Damage Output Analysis   Thu Apr 12 2018, 15:56

@wormfromhell wrote:
Buffed charging hellions do more damage to a crimson hunter per point than any buffed shooting unit...

Not more damage, unsaved wounds per point. the damage would be 10.68. where the Kalabites below them are doing between 4-24 damage.
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Kantalla
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PostSubject: Re: Drukhari Codex Damage Output Analysis   Fri Apr 13 2018, 02:18

The point on the Hellions is amusing, but we can make it more so...

The buffed Hellions have +1 S from Drugs and +1 A from Cult of Strife, making them S5 with Hellglaives. That will wound on a 5+ against the Crimson Hunter. If we were to use Cursed Blade instead, and Stimm Addict they would be S7 and wound on 3+ instead. They would lose 1/3 of their attacks, but wound twice as often, which would put them even further ahead of the best shooting option.

So yes, our most points efficient option to down flyers is actually drug-crazed sky-surfers hacking bits off the wings, rather than shooting at it.

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wormfromhell
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PostSubject: Re: Drukhari Codex Damage Output Analysis   Fri Apr 13 2018, 02:45

@Kantalla wrote:

So yes, our most points efficient option to down flyers is actually drug-crazed sky-surfers hacking bits off the wings, rather than shooting at it.

And that is when you know you have a well thought-out codex.

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|Meavar
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PostSubject: Re: Drukhari Codex Damage Output Analysis   Fri Apr 13 2018, 10:12

@wormfromhell wrote:
@Kantalla wrote:

So yes, our most points efficient option to down flyers is actually drug-crazed sky-surfers hacking bits off the wings, rather than shooting at it.

And that is when you know you have a well thought-out codex.

I think it is fair that they are better than shooting.
Against flyers who can cross entire tables in 1 turn it might be more difficult to actually get them in combat, and they die very easily. So from a balance point of vieuw I like it.
Considering that I can totally see my archon and succubus use flyers as fast semi safe transportation within the city it sort of makes sense that the saboteurs, anargists and scum of the underhive actually have the methods to take down those same flyers.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Drukhari Codex Damage Output Analysis   Fri Apr 13 2018, 10:45

@Kantalla wrote:
So yes, our most points efficient option to down flyers is actually drug-crazed sky-surfers hacking bits off the wings, rather than shooting at it.

Bizarrely, this was exactly the niche I came up with for Hellions in my 7e homebrew as I couldn't actually think of anything else that they would be good at!

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Kantalla
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PostSubject: Re: Drukhari Codex Damage Output Analysis   Fri Apr 13 2018, 13:28

One of the first things I thought of with the 8th edition rules was how cool it would be for Hellions to be dragging down flyers. I quite like the design where the Hellions are our most efficient option there.

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LordSplata
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PostSubject: Re: Drukhari Codex Damage Output Analysis   Sat Apr 14 2018, 00:23

I just wish they weren't so niche, they are beautiful models and I want to take them, without a feeling a of a knife in my hamstring
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withershadow
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PostSubject: Re: Drukhari Codex Damage Output Analysis   Sat Apr 14 2018, 01:32

Mathematically they seem really bad, but everyone who is using them in games reports success. They may be a diamond in the rough.
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wormfromhell
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PostSubject: Re: Drukhari Codex Damage Output Analysis   Sat Apr 14 2018, 01:55

@withershadow wrote:
Mathematically they seem really bad, but everyone who is using them in games reports success. They may be a diamond in the rough.

I am not finding them to be that great. they WWP in, and their damage isn't that great. That might be because i was fighting organ bodyguard spam though. even against guardsman though, they weren't too special. reavers are much better, their resilience against small arms is huge. hitting on 4's, wounding on 5's and then a 4+ save, 2W? Yes please! a unit of three was a tank in my 1000pt games.

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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: Drukhari Codex Damage Output Analysis   Sat Apr 14 2018, 02:12

My suspicion with Hellions is that their true strength is in stratagems, and not their core damage. 20 Hellions using Eviscerating Fly-by is a hell of a thing, for instance.

But I'll admit that I am struggling to fit them into lists over Wyches and Reavers.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Drukhari Codex Damage Output Analysis   Sat Apr 14 2018, 02:19

If i had a 20man T3/4 unit on the starting table, they are 1st to be killed No

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PostSubject: Re: Drukhari Codex Damage Output Analysis   Sat Apr 14 2018, 03:09

@amishprn86 wrote:
If i had a 20man T3/4 unit on the starting table, they are 1st to be killed  No

they really can't start on the table, their threat and toughness makes them first to be shot, and first to be killed.

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Drukhari Codex Damage Output Analysis   Sat Apr 14 2018, 03:19

Yeah and if im going to DS nearly 300pts, its not going to be a Melee unit that wants to move to get the most out of them.

Not saying they dont work for others, they wont work for me.

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Niiai
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PostSubject: Re: Drukhari Codex Damage Output Analysis   Fri Apr 20 2018, 22:00

Wow this is all rather good. It must have taken a lot of work doing it.

Might I inquier what you used to make these?
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wormfromhell
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PostSubject: Re: Drukhari Codex Damage Output Analysis   Sat Apr 21 2018, 03:13

@Niiai wrote:

Might I inquier what you used to make these?
probably excel.

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Kantalla
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PostSubject: Re: Drukhari Codex Damage Output Analysis   Wed Apr 25 2018, 04:55

@Niiai wrote:
Might I inquier what you used to make these?
They are screen captures from Excel 2016. Using data bar conditional formatting to get the scaling coloured bars.

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colinsherlow
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PostSubject: Re: Drukhari Codex Damage Output Analysis   Thu Jun 07 2018, 21:06

I like the math stuff! Saves me some time :-)

Also I would like to give hellions a shot. They seem solid if you have higher priority targets in your opponents face right away

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PostSubject: Re: Drukhari Codex Damage Output Analysis   Fri Jun 08 2018, 20:23

The problem with Hellions is their cost and guardsman level defensive stats. And much like their Reaver cousins, the bulk of their damage comes from the fly over stratagem.

Seeing as Hellions are the trash of Commoragh, they should have been like 10-12 points, no more.
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Eldur
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PostSubject: Re: Drukhari Codex Damage Output Analysis   Sun Jun 10 2018, 15:13

Hellions DSing turn 2 reroll charges, you can give them obsessions and drugs, and with FLY they can charge through any piece of terrain, allowing for LOS screening against overwatch and other shooting after failed charges. They benefit easily from cover. Stratagems help also, with Lightning Reflexes, double drugs for +2 toughness if you want, and they can give you the highest damage output from Eviscerating. They need DS if blocking LOS is not accessible during deployment, and you need to learn to use them well, but they give you both tactical options and potential fun on the battlefield. I plan on using them on a Cult batallion, jumping from wych-blocked combat to wych-blocked combat. And into flyers, now that I know their potential

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PostSubject: Re: Drukhari Codex Damage Output Analysis   Sun Jun 10 2018, 20:27

Rerolling a 9 is still a very high chance of failure. I’ll stick with Reavers, even though the models for Hellions are ace.
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Kantalla
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PostSubject: Re: Drukhari Codex Damage Output Analysis   Sun Jun 10 2018, 22:19

Against some targets Hellions are impressive in the damage they dish out. However, they are so fragile and expensive, they don't seem a reliable option to me.

They are a perfect example of a trap unit in the Codex, where something seems like a brilliant unit, when you imagine a full size unit doing a flyby then assaulting models with a good invulnerable save and multiple wounds, keeping the enemy locked in that combat with some Wyches, so not taking shooting in return and repeating. As amazing as they could be in the one game in 10 where that works, in the other nine games, you have spent 300 points on a unit that will get killed before it can do much.

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Drukhari Codex Damage Output Analysis   Sun Jun 10 2018, 23:44

What he said ^, Hellions are best against units with Invuls only and multi wounds or FnP type of saves, the are very good against DG.

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PostSubject: Re: Drukhari Codex Damage Output Analysis   Mon Jun 11 2018, 06:29

@amishprn86 wrote:
What he said ^, Hellions are best against units with Invuls only and multi wounds or FnP type of saves, the are very good against DG.

My limited experience against DG is that hellions are not that great, DG still have good saves (like any marine) or are extremely cheap (poxwalkers). I find them better against orks (bikers, nobs and their numerous characters), and depending on the list against tyranids.
I really like the models but I find against most opponents there are no really good targets for their high point cost.
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PostSubject: Re: Drukhari Codex Damage Output Analysis   Mon Jun 11 2018, 16:58

Im talking about Poxwalkers, 5++/5++ means you have a better chance to kill them with 2D vs Wyches, Reavers, etc.. they only do 1 wound and now have a better chance to save them.

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