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Kantalla
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PostSubject: Drukhari Codex Damage Output Analysis   Wed Apr 11 2018, 04:28

I have been updating and improving my Drukhari Damage Output Analysis to include the new Codex. The tool is not complete yet, but it has reached a stage where I can usefully provide some of the outputs to help you decide what to take in your army lists.

I use a points-normalised comparison of the damage output between different units so that a cheap points efficient unit is compared fairly to a larger and more expensive unit. Mathematically, the way this is calculated is:
Points normalised damage = unsaved wounds / points cost × 100
I will then refer to that as either "unsaved wounds per 100 points" or "US/100" as a short-hand.

The Codex is more difficult to carry out this analysis for than the Index was. There are a variety of reasons for that, mostly relating to what buffs are available for various units. We now have Obsessions, the Archon's Overlord aura, various Relics and some Stratagems that may buff the output of units that were not available in the Index.

In my version of my calculator, I can turn on or off the various buffs available, so can consider more permutations than are practical to show here. Here is what I am planning to show here:

TARGETS CONSIDERED:
1. Guardsmen (GEQ)
2. Ork Boyz (Horde)
3. Space Marine (MEQ)
4. Terminator (TEQ)
5. Land Speeder (low T vehicle)
6. Crimson Hunter (mid T flyer)
7. Predator (high T vehicle)
8. Land Raider (very high T vehicle)



OUTPUTS:
Short range shooting + assault (7" from target) sorted by Total US/100 (shooting + melee)
Medium range shooting (17" from target) sorted by Shooting US/100

Short range was chosen at 7" so that Plasma Grenades and Blast Pistols don't dominate the efficiency tables, as I consider them unreliable even if you are likely to get to charge.

Medium range shooting is the range where you are unlikely to be assaulted in return by infantry models. I haven't included a long range shooting option, because we don't have that many long range options and the best choices should be obvious from the medium range shooting table.

The tables are in two sets. First is unbuffed where there are no external auras, obsessions, stratagems or relics affecting output. Second is buffed where key auras and obsessions are applied.

Drukhari don't have many super powerful stratagems for boosting damage, but we do have some, and these have not been included in the analysis. Relics also have the potential to boost damage, mostly for individual HQs, but some can impact a wider range of models. These have also not been included in the analysis.

Targets are not receiving the benefits of cover.

Numerous unit configuration options were set up. Essentially I have made assumptions around the best unit configurations and given that a short title. For example, Kabalites (Shredders + Splinter cannon) is 10 Kabalite Warriors with 2 Shredders and a Splinter cannon and no upgrade on the Sybarite.

One of the really difficult decisions was about including transports with the units. In the end I decided to keep the transport separate from the base unit, because it is more practical to field units on foot with reduced points costs, and there are webway deployment options available. This does mean you need to consider are the units still efficient when you account for their transport if you decide to transport them.

Let me know if you would want to see any of the above changed. Perhaps you never see a Marine outside of cover, or every second army you face includes a Bloodletter bomb, or think the only way to play is Obsidian Rose with aura buffs for everyone.

As a final preamble note - there are likely to be occasional errors in my calculator due to the sheer complexity of programming in all of our rules. If you see something that doesn't look right, please let me know and I will try to get things sorted.

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Drukhari damage output analysis


Last edited by Kantalla on Thu Apr 12 2018, 11:41; edited 3 times in total
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Kantalla
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PostSubject: Re: Drukhari Codex Damage Output Analysis   Wed Apr 11 2018, 04:29

UNBUFFED SHORT RANGE DAMAGE EFFICIENCY

These tables represent damage efficiency at short range (7") with shooting and charging assumed for the Drukhari force. The tables are sorted by unsaved wounds per 100 points.

These tables are for a situation with no external buffs to the unit. Combat Drugs are assumed to be +1 attack.










BUFFED SHORT RANGE DAMAGE EFFICIENCY

These tables assume the following buffs:
Charging
Overlord (Archon)
Court of the Archon (Archon)
Brides of Death (Succubus / Lelith)
Beastmaster (Beastmaster)
Master of Blades (Drazhar)
Flensing Fury (Power from Pain T3)
Combat Drugs +1 S
Poisoned Tongue Obsession
Cult of Strife Obsession
Coven of Twelve Obsession

Excluded are Sculptor of Torments (Urien Rakarth), Stratagems and Relics.









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Drukhari damage output analysis


Last edited by Kantalla on Thu Apr 12 2018, 11:25; edited 2 times in total
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Kantalla
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PostSubject: Re: Drukhari Codex Damage Output Analysis   Wed Apr 11 2018, 04:29

UNBUFFED MEDIUM RANGE DAMAGE EFFICIENCY

These tables represent damage efficiency at medium range (17") with shooting only assumed for the Drukhari force. This range is chosen to reduce the likelihood of being charged in return. The tables are sorted by unsaved wounds per 100 points in shooting.

These tables are for a situation with no external buffs to the unit.










BUFFED MEDIUM RANGE DAMAGE EFFICIENCY

These tables assume the following buffs:
Charging
Overlord (Archon)
Court of the Archon (Archon)
Brides of Death (Succubus / Lelith)
Beastmaster (Beastmaster)
Master of Blades (Drazhar)
Flensing Fury (Power from Pain T3)
Combat Drugs +1 S
Poisoned Tongue Obsession
Cult of Strife Obsession
Coven of Twelve Obsession

Excluded are Sculptor of Torments (Urien Rakarth), Stratagems and Relics. Many of those buffs will not be effective due to the range used in the analysis.









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Drukhari damage output analysis


Last edited by Kantalla on Thu Apr 12 2018, 11:32; edited 2 times in total
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wormfromhell
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PostSubject: Re: Drukhari Codex Damage Output Analysis   Wed Apr 11 2018, 06:09

I am excited!

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PostSubject: Re: Drukhari Codex Damage Output Analysis   Wed Apr 11 2018, 08:02

Seems a bit strange that you're taking only particular obsessions into account (though I totally understand why you don't wanna do all of them.) Would it be worth doing them without obsession buffs & drugs? That way it's a bit more applicable to all lists and generally will be able to buff them beyond what's shown.

Though regardless I'm totally gonna keep my eye on this as it'd be nice to see a benchmark for how units should perform.
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Kantalla
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PostSubject: Re: Drukhari Codex Damage Output Analysis   Wed Apr 11 2018, 09:36

Deciding on which buffs and obsessions to use is tricky for this analysis.

For obsessions I basically went for no buffs and the best known Kabal, and the Cult and Coven with named characters. Black Heart with turn one doesn't have any buffs that impact the analysis. Prophets of Flesh likewise don't cause any damage buff issues. However, the Cult of Strike will make units with a <Cult> tag appear better than an otherwise fair comparison. I will consider whether I should redo the tables for a no Obsessions approach.

There are tricky calls around buffs and Stratagems too. For example, Court models will almost always get the Court of the Archon buff, but might be mounted in a transport or the Archon fails the charge roll. Scourges with Shredders might be keen to Fire and Fade to still qualify for medium range too.

What do others think about buffs that should be included or excluded?

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PostSubject: Re: Drukhari Codex Damage Output Analysis   Wed Apr 11 2018, 10:47

@Kantalla wrote:
Deciding on which buffs and obsessions to use is tricky for this analysis.

For obsessions I basically went for no buffs and the best known Kabal, and the Cult and Coven with named characters. Black Heart with turn one doesn't have any buffs that impact the analysis. Prophets of Flesh likewise don't cause any damage buff issues. However, the Cult of Strike will make units with a <Cult> tag appear better than an otherwise fair comparison. I will consider whether I should redo the tables for a no Obsessions approach.

There are tricky calls around buffs and Stratagems too. For example, Court models will almost always get the Court of the Archon buff, but might be mounted in a transport or the Archon fails the charge roll. Scourges with Shredders might be keen to Fire and Fade to still qualify for medium range too.

What do others think about buffs that should be included or excluded?

I think if you're willing to put the work in having values for without buffs and then other values for with buffs would be incredibly useful so you can see how a units effectiveness changes and get a better idea of how they'll perform in different scenarios. Otherwise I'd suggest no buffs to get an overview of how units will perform in worst case scenarios.

if you go for only buffs definitely mention which buffs are applied and potentially how much you feel the buffs have influenced it. It's definitely a tricky one though as units perform dramatically differently when different buffs are applied etc.
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Kantalla
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PostSubject: Re: Drukhari Codex Damage Output Analysis   Wed Apr 11 2018, 11:59

The without buffs is easy to do, and having given a bit of thought I will change that Cult to not have a buff for the comparison to be more fair.

There are so many possible combinations of buffs that I can't really do a single with buffs option. If there are buffs that are always, or almost always in play (Court of the Archon or Beastmaster are good candidates) I could include those.

The buffs do make a big difference. Lhamaeans (above) do 6.91 total US/100 against Space Marines. With Court of the Archon, and the Poisoned Tongue obsession that improves to 10.75 total US/100, with each Lhamaean killing 1.6 Marines per turn.

It is fairly easy for me being able to turn on or off the buffs to suit my list options, but not easy to put up here in a more static form.

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PostSubject: Re: Drukhari Codex Damage Output Analysis   Wed Apr 11 2018, 12:21

That's fair enough... The only way I could see buffs working would be 'optimal buffs' for the unit like the lhamean example you gave (which kinda makes me wanna go poisoned tongue instead of obsidian rose and have some lhameans hang out with my archon)

But without buffs would be good so we can get an idea of how they perform before cranking them up to 11.
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PostSubject: Re: Drukhari Codex Damage Output Analysis   Wed Apr 11 2018, 13:46

Mandrakes look like pretty good all rounders. Need to make space for them in my list.

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PostSubject: Re: Drukhari Codex Damage Output Analysis   Wed Apr 11 2018, 13:53

Great work Kantalla.

Really interesting stuff here, and as always a very easy way to compare all the options.

I must say I found the different ranges a little confusing, especially with the non-overall one first.  I would have liked the short range one first, as that compares things in the most simple of ways, before branching out into the different ranges and situations.

On the different obsessions, perhaps pretending the wyches are red grief ensure that only the worst case scenarios are written up.  However, as you say the changes can be massive one you start to factor in the different options.  A wych against a tank with S4 as opposed to S3 is a huge difference.
Even weapon options, the +a and +s options effect which wych weapons you choose signifcantly, with the Hydra gaunlets being amazing for Strife but the razor flails being top for +S.

Edit: lightbox has a point about the optimised choices though.
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PostSubject: Re: Drukhari Codex Damage Output Analysis   Wed Apr 11 2018, 20:14

A splinter shot does 0.33 wounds normally, and 0.49 wounds on a flayed skull raider with splinter racks. Saves not applied.
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PostSubject: Re: Drukhari Codex Damage Output Analysis   Wed Apr 11 2018, 22:21

So I need some Mandrakes and Scourge Haywire I think! Awesome!
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PostSubject: Re: Drukhari Codex Damage Output Analysis   Thu Apr 12 2018, 02:02

@Dark Elf Dave wrote:
So I need some Mandrakes and Scourge Haywire I think! Awesome!

Have 20 of each, and 20 Incubi i wanted to make a Merch only army and see how it does.

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PostSubject: Re: Drukhari Codex Damage Output Analysis   Thu Apr 12 2018, 02:45

Could someone do a DE resilience table like this? against LasgunEQ, bolterEQ, LascanonEQ, heavyBEQ, etc?

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PostSubject: Re: Drukhari Codex Damage Output Analysis   Thu Apr 12 2018, 03:17

Amazing work Kantalla. Surprised how good Mandrakes are against chaff, and how great the new HWB Scourges placed.
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PostSubject: Re: Drukhari Codex Damage Output Analysis   Thu Apr 12 2018, 03:33

@fisheyes wrote:
Amazing work Kantalla. Surprised how good Mandrakes are against chaff, and how great the new HWB Scourges placed.

I would compare them to shredder scourges tho instead of HWB if looking at AI


Speaking, where is the shooting Scourges with Shredders? I cant find them lol

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PostSubject: Re: Drukhari Codex Damage Output Analysis   Thu Apr 12 2018, 04:06

@amishprn86 wrote:
Speaking, where is the shooting Scourges with Shredders? I cant find them lol
Oops.

They are still lurking up above the battlefield waiting to drop down... Will add in when I redo the tables.

Based on the feedback I will adjust the tables a little. I'm thinking first an unbuffed set, and then what I would consider an optimally buffed set. There are going to be a lot of tables for you guys to look through. The second set will need some important assumptions, and whatever I chose someone will likely have a different view.

I can follow @LordSplata's suggestion and put close range in first. My reasoning for doing it long range first is when I look at a matchup at the start of the game I am generally first looking at whether I can take my opponent down at long range or whether I need to close in. The first instinct is usually the long range so I put that option first.

@wormfromhell - resilience tables are the next ones to update.

Be a little bit cautious about merc units in general. In the unbuffed (or just Wych buffed atm) tables they will score nicely but wont improve much with buffs because most of those are not available to them. That said Mandrakes and HWB Scourges are both good at the moment.

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PostSubject: Re: Drukhari Codex Damage Output Analysis   Thu Apr 12 2018, 04:14

Great to hear!

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PostSubject: Re: Drukhari Codex Damage Output Analysis   Thu Apr 12 2018, 05:02

Blaster kabalites kill more GEQ than shredders? How does that work? Only way that is possible is if the D6 damage is being factored in?

2 blasters average 1 dead guardsman. 2 shredders average 3.7. Blasters are 32 points, shredders are 16 points.

Am I reading the table wrong, because I don’t get it.


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PostSubject: Re: Drukhari Codex Damage Output Analysis   Thu Apr 12 2018, 05:06

@withershadow wrote:
Blaster kabalites kill more GEQ than shredders? How does that work?
If you are looking at the medium range table (17") then Blasters are in range and Shredders are out. In the short range and assault (7") the Shredders are ahead.

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PostSubject: Re: Drukhari Codex Damage Output Analysis   Thu Apr 12 2018, 05:13

Ah okay, now I get it. Thank you for the clarification.
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PostSubject: Re: Drukhari Codex Damage Output Analysis   Thu Apr 12 2018, 10:31

Maybe a very silly suggestion?
But could you put the defensive stats of the target also with the target name?
Normal marines and guards are no problem, but expecially with the vehicles I don't really know all their stats by heart. :S
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PostSubject: Re: Drukhari Codex Damage Output Analysis   Thu Apr 12 2018, 11:35

Tables updated.

I'm shocked you don't know every stat for every model in the game by heart. Will add into the original post.

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PostSubject: Re: Drukhari Codex Damage Output Analysis   Thu Apr 12 2018, 12:15

Buffed charging hellions do more damage to a crimson hunter per point than any buffed shooting unit...

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