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 Wracks vs Wyches

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ShamPow1999
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PostSubject: Wracks vs Wyches   Tue Apr 10 2018, 19:16

I am curious if anyone has done the math comparing these two units? Are Wracks just less killy more survivable assault units? Specifically, is the AP-1 enough to make Wracks comparable to Wyches in close combat?

The reason I ask is I’m not entirely sure how to use my Coven models. Right now it seems to me that they’re playstyle centres around using hordes of Wracks, Grotesques and Pain Engines supported by Scourges and Haemonculi and walking up the board. Has anyone tried using them yet?
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Gorefather
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PostSubject: Re: Wracks vs Wyches   Tue Apr 10 2018, 20:07

Not any math behind it but Wracks are good at holding objectives, especially with the 4++ obsession. I've found their melee to be underwhelming and their shooting to me too little too late even if you argue for infinite ossefactor shots.

Covens seem to be much more about rampaging through the front line with Grots and Pain Engines while Wracks run around capturing objectives.
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Lord Asvaldir
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PostSubject: Re: Wracks vs Wyches   Tue Apr 10 2018, 20:15

Even with the ap-1 I can't really see wracks as being all that killy. Between wych cult weapons, traits and combat drugs wyches are just pretty much always going to output more damage than wracks. Wracks may be better against really tough targets like something t6 due to their poison weapons, but that's not that useful. Better to use wracks as objective holders and throw ossefactors on them so at least they can take a couple pot shots at anything.

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AzraeI
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PostSubject: Re: Wracks vs Wyches   Tue Apr 10 2018, 23:36

could be useful against tau suits as they are T5, but you could also use more groteques
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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: Wracks vs Wyches   Tue Apr 10 2018, 23:47

Two completely different rules. Is like asking if it's better an hammer or a pencil.
Anyway, I prefer Wyches all the day. Much more tactics to do with them Smile
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ShamPow1999
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PostSubject: Re: Wracks vs Wyches   Wed Apr 11 2018, 00:52

@Gorefather wrote:
Not any math behind it but Wracks are good at holding objectives, especially with the 4++ obsession. I've found their melee to be underwhelming and their shooting to me too little too late even if you argue for infinite ossefactor shots.

Covens seem to be much more about rampaging through the front line with Grots and Pain Engines while Wracks run around capturing objectives.

I can understand the idea of having an anvil type contingent to absorb fire and run up the board but that means you're investing a lot of points for something that isn't giving you as much of a return as a combat unit (Wyches or Incubi) in a transport, or a support squads like Reavers and Ravagers.

If Covens are all about surviving then is the -1AP Trait hands down worse than the 4++ with Prophets of Flesh units?
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ShamPow1999
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PostSubject: Re: Wracks vs Wyches   Wed Apr 11 2018, 00:57

@Lord Asvaldir wrote:
Even with the ap-1 I can't really see wracks as being all that killy. Between wych cult weapons, traits and combat drugs wyches are just pretty much always going to output more damage than wracks. Wracks may be better against really tough targets like something t6 due to their poison weapons, but that's not that useful. Better to use wracks as objective holders and throw ossefactors on them so at least they can take a couple pot shots at anything.

I'm having a hard time understanding how to run Covens with this codex because of this. Cult units are faster and hit harder with access to decent support units (Reavers and Razorwings). Kabal's shooting seems to be hands down the most competitive way to play mono-faction Drukhari. That leaves the Coven units to be a weird fringe element that are survivable but have no punch?

Basically, is it possible to run a Coven on its own without it being hands down worse than the other two options we have?
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withershadow
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PostSubject: Re: Wracks vs Wyches   Wed Apr 11 2018, 01:04

I think a foot-based Obsidian Rose detachment would mesh well with a tough Coven onion (layers of wracks, grotesques and Talos) keeping the enemy at bay as your kabalites blast away (no pun intended).

I think maybe beasts would also work well here. The cronos may have a purpose here, being the only way beyond beastmasters to buff them. For example, a spearhead led by Lilith with a beastmaster and two units of mandrakes could be a good tertiary detachment for such a list. The core would probably be a Coven battalion and then a vanguard of Ravagers and Razorwings.


Last edited by withershadow on Wed Apr 11 2018, 01:05; edited 1 time in total
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TeenageAngst
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PostSubject: Re: Wracks vs Wyches   Wed Apr 11 2018, 01:04

"How do I be good with an entire army of T5 9 point models with invul saves and ignores wounds?"

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ShamPow1999
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PostSubject: Re: Wracks vs Wyches   Wed Apr 11 2018, 01:09

@withershadow wrote:
I think a foot-based Obsidian Rose detachment would mesh well with a tough Coven onion (layers of wracks, grotesques and Talos) keeping the enemy at bay as your kabalites blast away (no pun intended).

I think maybe beasts would also work well here. The cronos may have a purpose here, being the only way beyond beastmasters to buff them. For example, a spearhead led by Lilith with a beastmaster and two units of mandrakes could be a good tertiary detachment for such a list. The core would probably be a Coven battalion and then a vanguard of Ravagers and Razorwings.

That does sound cool! It seems that this style of play would probably be done best by Prophets of Flesh then, since they'd be better at not dying. So I guess its a way to play horde Dark Eldar?
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ShamPow1999
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PostSubject: Re: Wracks vs Wyches   Wed Apr 11 2018, 01:14

@TeenageAngst wrote:
"How do I be good with an entire army of T5 9 point models with invul saves and ignores wounds?"

lol!

Actually that is what I'm asking! Is your entire army of T5 9 point models on foot or in vehicles? Which obsession works best for what play style? I'd hope there are some strategies and tactics that make some armies better than others, it's hardly an auto-win right?
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withershadow
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PostSubject: Re: Wracks vs Wyches   Wed Apr 11 2018, 01:15

Yes, Drukhari got a lot cheaper overall, and each raider you dont take is another squad of infantry. In the case of Coven infantry, they are actually tougher than the raider. Prophets is by far the best out of the three, with the best defensive buff, urien as an awesome character, a great stratagem and by far the best warlord trait.
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HedonusVex
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PostSubject: Re: Wracks vs Wyches   Wed Apr 11 2018, 09:06

I use my 20 wracks and haemonculus as a screen because my meta is full of deepstrikers. Grey Knights, GSC, Dark Angels, etc. They're really good at that with the 4++ from prophets. And when the enemy takes the bait and shoots a wracks unit but doesn't kill it, I can teleport it over to an objective at full strength and laugh at them.

As for a whole coven army? I would say a few grote units (2-3) in raiders, a spearhead of some Talos Engines, and as many wracks and haemonculuseses as you can. Wracks are cannon fodder/ distractions (maybe a few units in venoms for objective grabbing) and the grots and Talos go make things stop existing
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Lord Asvaldir
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PostSubject: Re: Wracks vs Wyches   Wed Apr 11 2018, 16:50

@ShamPow1999 wrote:
@Lord Asvaldir wrote:
Even with the ap-1 I can't really see wracks as being all that killy. Between wych cult weapons, traits and combat drugs wyches are just pretty much always going to output more damage than wracks. Wracks may be better against really tough targets like something t6 due to their poison weapons, but that's not that useful. Better to use wracks as objective holders and throw ossefactors on them so at least they can take a couple pot shots at anything.

I'm having a hard time understanding how to run Covens with this codex because of this. Cult units are faster and hit harder with access to decent support units (Reavers and Razorwings). Kabal's shooting seems to be hands down the most competitive way to play mono-faction Drukhari. That leaves the Coven units to be a weird fringe element that are survivable but have no punch?

Basically, is it possible to run a Coven on its own without it being hands down worse than the other two options we have?

I've only tried my wrack unit once post-codex so I can't say yet that they are amazing, but I do think that they are solid. You don't need them to do much damage, they just march up the board and hold an objective, and with the haemonculus nearby they are just amazingly tough for 1w infantry models.

I would never run pure coven because I don't like them that much, but I do think it's possible. You'd need a lot of grots/taloi backed up by scourges for your anti-tank firepower plus maybe an airwing of razorwings.

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shadowseercB
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PostSubject: Re: Wracks vs Wyches   Wed Apr 11 2018, 17:53

I like wracks more.  High toughness, better save, and because of that they have a better chance to get into combat. The prophets of flesh stratagem and Obsessions are hard things to over look as well.

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yellabelly
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PostSubject: Re: Wracks vs Wyches   Wed Apr 11 2018, 17:58

I'm looking at a 10 man wrack unit on foot for holding objectives and body guarding a haemonculous. If I come up against a psyker army I want him following up behind my main army with the helm of spite, and those 10 wracks to keep that precious anti psyker element alive. Have to see how that works out in game though, I may decide they aren't pulling their weight.

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Mononcule
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PostSubject: Re: Wracks vs Wyches   Thu Apr 12 2018, 00:30

I like wracks because they bring different option than kabalites and wychs. Last edition I always felt like kabalites were the only viable troop choice, except maybe the scalpel squadron just for fun once in a while.

Now I'm thrilled to have 3 viable AND different options. I played all 3 last friday and wracks were great, advancing towards the relic with their T5 4++ 6+++. Didnt had the chance to try their teleport stratagem yet, in some specific cases the impact could be significant (generate ~8-9 wracks and redeploy to capture an objective).
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Chippen
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PostSubject: Re: Wracks vs Wyches   Thu Apr 12 2018, 01:20

You're trying to shove a square peg into a round hole. Wracks aren't going to have the offensive punch wyches do, but wyches don't have the staying power of Wracks. Nothing wrong with a T5 4++ Wrack screen to protect your Ravagers that are rerolling 1s to hit and wound thanks to your Black Heart Archon, and nothing wrong with a Wych bomb to pop screens and then some.

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Wracks vs Wyches   Thu Apr 12 2018, 02:06

Its 2 different type of unit roles at this point.

Wyches are a Hammer where Wracks are an Anvil.

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