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Darkin
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Join date : 2017-07-21
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PostSubject: Re: Heartbroken   Wed Apr 11 2018, 08:22

for someone who started to play in  7th and started with dark Eldar in e8th, I can't really say something about this problem. at the moment i love this army and im fine with this edition as well. it has flaws yes but every edition has and the simplification of this edition got a lot of my friends back into Warhammer. just some word from someone who doesn't play for the longest time

sometimes I have the feeling im the only one who really likes the army he is playing?
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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: Heartbroken   Wed Apr 11 2018, 11:40

@Hawkstrom wrote:

What tanks are faster than raiders? raiders only move 14 so they are slower than craft world tanks, but what "artillery vehicles" and "heavy tanks" move 14?

I think he's referring to Craftworld heavy tanks and artillery (Fire Prisms, Night Spinners, Wave Serpents etc.).

I know that they're Eldar tanks, but that's the whole point. Supposedly, our vehicles trade armour for speed, yet Eldar get heavy armour and are actually faster than us. So what the hell have we traded our armour for? scratch

It's made even worse by the removal of Trueborn, as well as Open-Topped no longer helping melee units in any way. It means we're trading both armour and speed for an ability that benefits one unit in our army.

@Hawkstrom wrote:
with the flayed skull obsession they would move 17 which would that not make us the fastest army in the game?

But that was his point - we've already traded armour for speed. Hence, our vehicles should be faster than the more heavily-armoured Eldar ones regardless of which Obsession we take.

That said, I wonder if at least part of the issue is that Eldar vehicles were made a little too fast? Maybe it would have been more sensible to give them 14" movement, rather than 16" movement. Though even then it seems very wrong that a Raider can't even match a Land Speeder. tongue

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mynamelegend
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PostSubject: Re: Heartbroken   Wed Apr 11 2018, 12:06

Ehh, keep the models around. You never know. I tried to make the godawful piece of crap mess that was 7th edition work out for me, but it was a sufficiently terrible game to play that I just stopped, I could not see myself touching warhammer again. My models remained on the shelf. Then I didn't have to rebuy and repaint when 8th came out.
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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: Re: Heartbroken   Wed Apr 11 2018, 12:08

Exactly. And we also traded weapons. Raiders have one gun, Venoms have 2. Wave Serpents have three. Falcons have 3. Those have more transport capacity than us as well. As for mobility, CWE have wargear options and loadouts that allow them to move while firing at full efficiency.

Literally our only advantages are: 1) cheaper. 2) open topped.

#1 is yet another instance of quantity instead of quality, which is an ethos I am quitting over.
#2 is a significant benefit to exactly 1 unit now.

What did we trade for again?
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Quauchtemoc
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PostSubject: Re: Heartbroken   Wed Apr 11 2018, 12:19

But thats not a new thing ... I'm not even sure it was different in V3. And we get the heavy weapon that become assault on our vehicule too. I can understand you dont like this play style and want to give up but really thats not 8th edition related
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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: Re: Heartbroken   Wed Apr 11 2018, 12:57

@Quauchtemoc wrote:
But thats not a new thing ... I'm not even sure it was different in V3. And we get the heavy weapon that become assault on our vehicule too. I can understand you dont like this play style and want to give up but really thats not 8th edition related

What we used to get was assault vehicles. We actually got our speed. we could compensate for our lack of vehicle guns with a boatload of trueborn armed to the teeth. Blasterborn in a venom was a TERRIFYING amount of firepower. Assaulting out of a raider with 10 incubi was a melee powerhouse, fast moving and deadly.

We've lost our mobility, and we've lost our 'stacked to the rafters firepower'.
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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: Heartbroken   Wed Apr 11 2018, 13:06

I'm sorry that you're not enjoying the game any more but I'm really struggling to see a lack of mobility and firepower in our Codex. A Ravager can quite easily move 25 inches in a turn before firing, for instance.

It might be different to previous Codices but that's fine - we've seen several variations of the Dark Eldar over the years anyways.
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Quauchtemoc
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PostSubject: Re: Heartbroken   Wed Apr 11 2018, 13:28

@FuelDrop wrote:
@Quauchtemoc wrote:
But thats not a new thing ... I'm not even sure it was different in V3. And we get the heavy weapon that become assault on our vehicule too. I can understand you dont like this play style and want to give up but really thats not 8th edition related

What we used to get was assault vehicles. We actually got our speed. we could compensate for our lack of vehicle guns with a boatload of trueborn armed to the teeth. Blasterborn in a venom was a TERRIFYING amount of firepower. Assaulting out of a raider with 10 incubi was a melee powerhouse, fast moving and deadly.

We've lost our mobility, and we've lost our 'stacked to the rafters firepower'.

Well its true we used to get assault vehicule ... that was useless cause our assault unit were terrible and our vehicule too easy to kill. And nobody get assault vehicule now, not just us
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doriii
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PostSubject: Re: Heartbroken   Fri Apr 13 2018, 00:16

i kinda dislike the fact that DE are such a horde army, after the price drops we can spam all hell on the table. Its the fluff yeah swarm the enemy and disappear but i cant help to think that if they just upped the price or let it be the same and instead gave units some incredible buffs to be a real hammer to the glass element. Yet we are an army of a thousand cuts and not a bazooka onekill wonder Very Happy
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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: Heartbroken   Fri Apr 13 2018, 00:53

One thing I'll say in defence of this codex - there are very few units that seem unusable. With the possible exception of Drazhar, even our 'bad' units aren't that bad.

What I mean is, for the first time in ages, I feel like I really can use any of the models in my collection (except the winged ones, but I've probably harped on enough about that), without handicapping myself. I can take a fluffier Kabal and prioritise fun/flavour over power, without feeling that I'm crippling myself by doing so.

I mean, I look at the recent Necron book and it seems most of what was crap in the index has remained exactly as crap in the actual codex . . . which unfortunately seems to include about 2/3 of my collection. I'm not fond of Necron vehicles at the vest of times, and have absolutely no intention of going out and buying 3 Doomsday Arks just to have some worthwhile anti-tank. Evil or Very Mad

I bring this up because, whilst the DE codex has made some significant missteps (mostly in the HQ department IMO), I think it also got an awful lot of things right and it only seems fair to acknowledge that.

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Kantalla
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PostSubject: Re: Heartbroken   Fri Apr 13 2018, 01:14

I had speed issues after coming back from 3rd edition to 7th edition.

Back in 3rd edition, most opponents deployed conventionally and often didn't have transports. They could move 6" in the movement phase, couldn't advance, and charges were a 6" thing. If they had transports they could move 12" if they went flat out, which would stop them disembarking.

In contrast Raiders could move 12" and disembark, or 24" flat out. Pointy ears of all kinds could use fleet of foot to get an advance move instead of shooting (but could still assault), and one of the Wych drugs gave a 12" charge. With assault vehicles part way through the edition, Dark Eldar could still charge after disembarking. That package was a major speed edge on most other armies.

Coming back in 7th to being ineffectual in assault, and being able to move 6" if I wanted to shoot at full effect was a major handbrake. Reavers though were beautifully fast.

In 8th, we feel fast again, it's just everyone else is a bit too fast, and there is too much deep strike for us to dominate on speed alone again. On the other hand, we are much more resilient than in the past, and the game seems reasonably fairly balanced.

TLDR - there is some basis for being upset with how we play, but it's much better than 7th Ed now.

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withershadow
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PostSubject: Re: Heartbroken   Fri Apr 13 2018, 03:30

Yeah this complaint honestly reads like it was written in 5th edition.
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wormfromhell
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PostSubject: Re: Heartbroken   Fri Apr 13 2018, 05:51

While the reavers are the fastest non-teleporting non-flyer in the game, our real speed is from the fact that we can affordably have our whole army in flying transports that go at least 14", and up to 19". CWE can only have a few transports, given that they are 150+ pts, while a venom is only 65.

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Lord Asvaldir
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PostSubject: Re: Heartbroken   Fri Apr 13 2018, 06:24

Very true. Wave Serpent is probably one of the best transports in the game, packing firepower, good transport capacity and survivability all into one package, but if you're packing all your eldar into wave serpents you're going to have a low model count army. Our army on the other hand can get say 50 infantry into transports and actually have room left to fill out the rest of the army.

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