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HERO
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PostSubject: HERO's 8th Ed. articles and requests   Tue Apr 10 2018, 08:52

Hi all.  Most know me on this forum and since I've came back to 8th, I've been crazy excited for DE and writing on my blog again.  I took a long hiatus from the game to focus on real life stuff, but with the new book, I'm back and writing in full force.

Since my return, I've written an article a day.  The funny part is, you can see how my train of thought changed over the course of the Codex leaks, to having the book in my hands, to getting my first couple of games played.  Hell, even my army lists are constantly in flux and being developed constantly!  I haven't had this much fun in forever.

Here are the articles I've written already, alongside some of the ones are most popular:

I'M BACK - Dark Eldar is coming! <-- Primer
DE: My picks for Kabal
DE: Huge leaks, new army list
DE: A deeper look at Warriors and Trueborn
DE: Unlocking Kabal of the Black Heart
DE: Min-maxing Pure Kabal
DE: Dissing the night away
DE: Black Heart might be the best Kabal
DE: Time to try out some Wyches
DE: Black Heart Kabal with Alaitoc allies
DE: Dark Eldar list building advice
DE: A different take on Wyches
DE: Extending threat with Obsidian Rose
DE: Don't lose focus when building your army
DE: Powerful builds for your HQ
DE: Archon bubbles and vehicle deployment
DE: Tips and tricks on movement
DE: Competitive list predictions
DE: New FAQ and updated lists!
DE: Miserable Meat Mountain
DE: Evolution of a competitive list

My next article is going to be about Archon bubble-wrapping, but after that, I'm going to be pretty dry.  Here's your chance to pitch in some ideas so I can get the brain juices flowing and the writing happening.  Keep in mind that I'm going to try an article a day, but I'm also human and need a break occasionally.  For now though, keep the ideas coming as I know there's much to talk about.

I will warn you ahead of time that I don't have any Reavers currently because I've lent them out to a friend and never got them back, I lost a Razorwing somehow during a move, and I don't have any Coven units because they're smelly.  No really, I just never got into Coven, it's not my thing.  What I do have is Dark Eldar, Eldar and Harlequins.  This also means I have Ynnari by default whether you like it or not!

The most popular articles so far are the ones I'm going to list in my sig.


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HERO
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PostSubject: Re: HERO's 8th Ed. articles and requests   Tue Apr 10 2018, 08:53

Damn, that was fast..

In the broiler:
Archon bubble-wrapping
Tips on mechanized warfare
An Archon, a Succubus, and a Haemonculus <-- up next!
Tournament lists and how to deal
Getting our HQ into combat (general article about DE movement and threat range)
Dark Eldar + Harlequins


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sejason
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PostSubject: Re: HERO's 8th Ed. articles and requests   Tue Apr 10 2018, 10:02

First of all ... thanks for reactivating your blog and sharing your thoughts with us.
The recent move of many sites to review everything in a video or a podcast is not something I like - I'm a little old-school here, preferring the wirtten word over the spoken one Wink

Your List Building Guide post a few days ago was inspiring to me, even though it is just simple thinking.
In most lists I mix things up instead of trying to stay at a chosen theme and thus my success rate is kinda .... mixed Wink That's not a bad thing, as I only play casual games with friends, but winning or getting a close outcome is still nice.

Anyway, I have a wish and a question.
After designing the shooty Kabal lists, how would a close combat oriented list look like? I would mix some blocks of Wyches with small groups of Reavers to tie up the enemy first turn and just because I like them, I'd add in some Grotesques. Maybe a Talos and a Cronos, the first as a different threat vector and the latter one could buff the Wyches. As you mentioned, they're smelly ... but I like their looks.
The question in my mind is, how do I use the Archons buff on the Warriors in the Raiders? If I read this correctly, it will not be applied to them as long as they are in their transports. With the longer range on the weapons from Obsidian Rose (which I really like!), there's no point to get out of them, or is there?
So while the Archons are sitting in their Venom / Raider near the Raiders carrying the Warriors, they're doing nothing apart from trying not to get shot and maybe snipe something with a Blaster?

While writing this, something else came to my mind. I've seen you switch the Dark Lance in the Warrior squads for Splinter Cannons in your last post (or so ... there's so many of them recently Very Happy) and I think, they are a better choice than the Dark Lance. SC are cheaper, don't get the -1 to hit for a Heavy weapon and hit several times. With all the other darklight weapons floating around in the lists, the single shot BS4 Dark Lances on the Warrior squads seemed not so good.

Speaking about Dark Lances - I did not yet do the math of Disintegrators vs Dark Lances, did you? Did anyone else do this yet?

Thanks, Seja

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Dark Elf Dave
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PostSubject: Re: HERO's 8th Ed. articles and requests   Tue Apr 10 2018, 10:59

I really do hope people can move away from the old tactic of having their Archon sit in a Venom with a trusty 2+ to hit Blaster and stay out of the fight...the HQ is now viable to be built into a combat character or character assassin or a tank type character. So many options, lots of fun to be had.

It is time for people to take note of the new rules and realise that Archons hiding in a Venom are being wasted.
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PostSubject: Re: HERO's 8th Ed. articles and requests   Tue Apr 10 2018, 11:27

I play a combination of DE, and Harlequins. Mostly since in previous editions Harlequins used to be in the DE codex.
Right now I am mostly in doubt about the best way to divide my army in detachments. With the index I had a DE Battalion, a Harlequin Patrol, and an Aeldari Outrider with just Reavers, Hellions and a Craftworld Farseer Skyrunner as an HQ.
However, if I keep my army like that, I won't be able to use any obsessions at all. If I divide my original Battalion into 3 Patrols (Coven, Cult and Kabal) I'll have too many detachments, since apparently most places stick to max 3 detachments.
I would love to read something about this. How to divide detachments, and what's the best way to combine DE and Harlequins (and maybe Craftworlds).

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PostSubject: Re: HERO's 8th Ed. articles and requests   Tue Apr 10 2018, 11:50

Bubble wrap for deployment and when its required with new codex / general first turn deployment and tactics. Great articles!
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PostSubject: Re: HERO's 8th Ed. articles and requests   Tue Apr 10 2018, 14:37

Regarding HQs:

- I'd like to see some more on Archon tactics - mostly in terms of what units to run them with. Especially if you're not just shoving one at the back with 3 Ravagers.

- I'd also like to see some discussion on good HQ builds that don't involve artefacts or warlord traits.

- Maybe something on Cult/drug combinations for Wych units?


@Dark Elf Dave wrote:
I really do hope people can move away from the old tactic of having their Archon sit in a Venom with a trusty 2+ to hit Blaster and stay out of the fight...the HQ is now viable to be built into a combat character or character assassin or a tank type character.  So many options, lots of fun to be had.

It is time for people to take note of the new rules and realise that Archons hiding in a Venom are being wasted.

Would it not make sense to have a bit of both? As in, have him shooting for the first turn or two and then have him come out and fight after that?

I know he's good in combat now, but he's also still by far the best ranged HQ we have.

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PostSubject: Re: HERO's 8th Ed. articles and requests   Tue Apr 10 2018, 15:14

@HERO wrote:
I will warn you ahead of time that I don't have any Reavers currently because I've lent them out to a friend and never got them back, I lost a Razorwing somehow during a move, and I don't have any Coven units because they're smelly.  No really, I just never got into Coven, it's not my thing.  What I do have is Dark Eldar, Eldar and Harlequins.  This also means I have Ynnari by default whether you like it or not!

Wait, we just got a powerful new codex and you're making excuses to not have particular models? Think of it as a reason to remedy that gap in your collection once and for all. lol!

Really, though, thanks for the articles so far. I've been reading and commenting along both here and elsewhere.

Along the lines of Archon bubble-wrap, I'd love to see some tactics for the melee Archon builds. Your lists so far haven't included any Incubi, which is the only bodyguard that would fit into a Kabal-only detachment. Wyches are another, but do you really need a second blender next to Succubi builds available to us?
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PostSubject: Re: HERO's 8th Ed. articles and requests   Tue Apr 10 2018, 15:43

@Soulless Samurai wrote:
Regarding HQs:


@Dark Elf Dave wrote:
I really do hope people can move away from the old tactic of having their Archon sit in a Venom with a trusty 2+ to hit Blaster and stay out of the fight...the HQ is now viable to be built into a combat character or character assassin or a tank type character.  So many options, lots of fun to be had.

It is time for people to take note of the new rules and realise that Archons hiding in a Venom are being wasted.

Would it not make sense to have a bit of both? As in, have him shooting for the first turn or two and then have him come out and fight after that?

I know he's good in combat now, but he's also still by far the best ranged HQ we have.

The Archon was only the best ranged HQ in the index simply because it could carry a Blaster and I have no intention of giving it a Blaster...I just don't think the index rules will last once all the codex have been released.

Also seriously...the most basic troops can carry Blasters and the only difference between them and your Archon is 2+ vs. 3+ to hit.  I would argue that for the points you were always better off having Blaster born on a Venom than a Blaster Archon on a Venom.

The problem before was the Archon couldn't handle CC...now he can boss CC!  Get the Succubus and the Archon into combat together and you are going to kill things!
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PostSubject: Re: HERO's 8th Ed. articles and requests   Tue Apr 10 2018, 15:58

I'd like to see a "common lists you encounter at tournaments/competitive play and how to beat them with DE" type thing. Could be a recurring topic as well.

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PostSubject: Re: HERO's 8th Ed. articles and requests   Tue Apr 10 2018, 16:00

@Dark Elf Dave wrote:

The Archon was only the best ranged HQ in the index simply because it could carry a Blaster and I have no intention of giving it a Blaster...I just don't think the index rules will last once all the codex have been released.

Okay, but that's still your choice. Until the Index rules are removed, the Archon can take a Blaster. And that makes him our best ranged HQ by a standard mile.

Also, if you're looking for a non-Index weapon, there's always the Soul Seeker. Not as effective against vehicles, but could make for some amusing tricks/tactics, given that it can snipe characters and doesn't need LoS.

Is it as good as his melee? Probably not. But I think there's something to be said for being able to shoot character from 18" away, behind a wall. Very Happy

I'm guessing its not your thing, but it does appeal to me.

(It's also an artefact, so subsequent Archons would have to either take the dreaded Blaster or else focus on melee. Or do both.)

@Dark Elf Dave wrote:

Also seriously...the most basic troops can carry Blasters and the only difference between them and your Archon is 2+ vs. 3+ to hit.  I would argue that for the points you were always better off having Blaster born on a Venom than a Blaster Archon on a Venom.

I don't remember ever disputing that.

That said, if you're comparing the Archon to other units, I feel obliged to point out that an Archon without artefacts or warlord traits compares unfavourably to Incubi in melee.

And, yeah, I know that an Archon with the Djin Blade and Hatred Eternal will probably outdo them. But then what's your second Archon doing? What's your third Archon doing?

@Dark Elf Dave wrote:
The problem before was the Archon couldn't handle CC...now he can boss CC!  Get the Succubus and the Archon into combat together and you are going to kill things!

Would these be Archons and Succibi with the aforementioned artefacts and warlord traits, or are they killing things with the basic Huskblade and power-fist-but-much-worse Glaive?


I am curious about one thing though (which goes back to the topic I requested) - what unit are you putting your melee Archon with? And if you're mixing subfactions to put him with Grotesques or such, can I ask what you'd put him with if you were doing pure Kabal?

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PostSubject: Re: HERO's 8th Ed. articles and requests   Tue Apr 10 2018, 16:26

I think the HQ's only really start to get really boss with relics yes...but you don't (always) pay for the relics so I'm not too picky over that point. Without a relic then they are decent, but not as scary.

I won't ever play a pure Kabal list...to drop all that flavour from Cults would be a crime for me Sad and I love Coven as well!

BUT if I did run a pure Kabal list I would start to look into the Archons Court as my CC Archons retinue. There is enough versatility there, especially when fitting models onto a transport. It is super fluffy as well.

I get your point though. We can super buff one Archon...but what do we do with the next one? Thankfully I won't be taking a 2nd or 3rd Archon. I think there are better reasons to take one Kabal and two Cults for the vision I have currently.
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PostSubject: Re: HERO's 8th Ed. articles and requests   Tue Apr 10 2018, 16:48

@Dark Elf Dave wrote:
I think the HQ's only really start to get really boss with relics yes...but you don't (always) pay for the relics so I'm not too picky over that point.  Without a relic then they are decent, but not as scary.

I won't ever play a pure Kabal list...to drop all that flavour from Cults would be a crime for me Sad and I love Coven as well!

I can understand that. Cult isn't really my thing, but I do love Coven.

Are you using a 3 Patrols type army?

@Dark Elf Dave wrote:

BUT if I did run a pure Kabal list I would start to look into the Archons Court as my CC Archons retinue.  There is enough versatility there, especially when fitting models onto a transport.  It is super fluffy as well.

Yeah, I think you're right.

I know it's a terrible idea, but I was musing about running an Archon with some Mandrakes on a transport. Razz

@Dark Elf Dave wrote:

I get your point though.  We can super buff one Archon...but what do we do with the next one?  Thankfully I won't be taking a 2nd or 3rd Archon.  I think there are better reasons to take one Kabal and two Cults for the vision I have currently.

Can I ask what units you're running your various HQs with?

Oh, one other thing - do you like running multiple HQs in the same unit? I ask because it's something I'm always hesitant to do (seems like a lot of eggs in one basket).

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PostSubject: Re: HERO's 8th Ed. articles and requests   Tue Apr 10 2018, 17:04

“Your thoughts”, or stuff you’ve pilfered and gleaned from this forum? Razz

I kid, it’s good to have essentially summaries of many of our discussions all in one place without having to scroll past Blasterborn debates. Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: HERO's 8th Ed. articles and requests   Tue Apr 10 2018, 17:16

It'd be nice to see some tips on getting HQ's into combat. Is transporting worth it over footslogging? Is it worth it trying for a T1/T2 charge, or should our HQ's be a beta striking unit? How does a Black Heart Archon size up against a Doomseer? And finally, what's the best way to deal with hordes? Has the Shredder risen like the Mandrake and Pyrovore from the depths of comical uselessness to fill an anti-infantry role?

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PostSubject: Re: HERO's 8th Ed. articles and requests   Tue Apr 10 2018, 17:35

To second the request on how to get your HQ's into combat, do you see deepstriking a command raider with all the HQ's? (besides the Black Heart archon babysitting the ravagers in the back)

To get some work out the HQ's first round seems like you still have to give them blasters to shoot when the screaming jets land, or give them blast pistols and fire and fade the raider into blast pistol range (assuming you can find a spot that the raider can't be surrounded). I guess the big question is how often is there a spot 6" away from something that isn't at risk of having the raider surrounded.




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PostSubject: Re: HERO's 8th Ed. articles and requests   Tue Apr 10 2018, 19:55

@sejason wrote:
First of all ... thanks for reactivating your blog and sharing your thoughts with us.
The recent move of many sites to review everything in a video or a podcast is not something I like - I'm a little old-school here, preferring the wirtten word over the spoken one Wink

Your List Building Guide post a few days ago was inspiring to me, even though it is just simple thinking.
In most lists I mix things up instead of trying to stay at a chosen theme and thus my success rate is kinda .... mixed Wink That's not a bad thing, as I only play casual games with friends, but winning or getting a close outcome is still nice.

Anyway, I have a wish and a question.
After designing the shooty Kabal lists, how would a close combat oriented list look like? I would mix some blocks of Wyches with small groups of Reavers to tie up the enemy first turn and just because I like them, I'd add in some Grotesques. Maybe a Talos and a Cronos, the first as a different threat vector and the latter one could buff the Wyches. As you mentioned, they're smelly ... but I like their looks.
The question in my mind is, how do I use the Archons buff on the Warriors in the Raiders? If I read this correctly, it will not be applied to them as long as they are in their transports. With the longer range on the weapons from Obsidian Rose (which I really like!), there's no point to get out of them, or is there?
So while the Archons are sitting in their Venom / Raider near the Raiders carrying the Warriors, they're doing nothing apart from trying not to get shot and maybe snipe something with a Blaster?

While writing this, something else came to my mind. I've seen you switch the Dark Lance in the Warrior squads for Splinter Cannons in your last post (or so ... there's so many of them recently Very Happy) and I think, they are a better choice than the Dark Lance. SC are cheaper, don't get the -1 to hit for a Heavy weapon and hit several times. With all the other darklight weapons floating around in the lists, the single shot BS4 Dark Lances on the Warrior squads seemed not so good.

Speaking about Dark Lances - I did not yet do the math of Disintegrators vs Dark Lances, did you? Did anyone else do this yet?

Thanks, Seja

You can find some excellent work done by @Lordsplata on the math behind Dark Lances vs. Dissies. In general, Dark Lances are better vs. T6 and T7 targets while Dissies are better vs. T4/5 and funny enough, almost equal vs. T8. The extra -1 AP also helps vs. non-invul 2+ AS targets.

I've already written some articles on more melee oriented lists, but they're without Coven units. Do these suffice, or are you looking for something else more specifically? All the lists I've built so far are Kabal and Cults.

As for Archons and buffs, I'm writing an article today that will talk about this more in-depth. It's one my #1 to add.
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PostSubject: Re: HERO's 8th Ed. articles and requests   Tue Apr 10 2018, 19:56

@Dark Elf Dave wrote:
I really do hope people can move away from the old tactic of having their Archon sit in a Venom with a trusty 2+ to hit Blaster and stay out of the fight...the HQ is now viable to be built into a combat character or character assassin or a tank type character.  So many options, lots of fun to be had.

It is time for people to take note of the new rules and realise that Archons hiding in a Venom are being wasted.

I haven't had my Living Muse Archon sit in a Raider for quite some time. I think as long as we have the option to take a 18" Blaster that hits on 2s, we should not waste that opportunity. There are times where you will have them out of the Raider to provide bonuses, and times where he's safer inside so you can act as a mini-Ravager. Yes, we did improve in our melee options, but this doesn't mean you have to get him into melee as a requirement (especially in a shooty list).
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PostSubject: Re: HERO's 8th Ed. articles and requests   Tue Apr 10 2018, 19:57

@Gelmir wrote:
I play a combination of DE, and Harlequins. Mostly since in previous editions Harlequins used to be in the DE codex.
Right now I am mostly in doubt about the best way to divide my army in detachments. With the index I had a DE Battalion, a Harlequin Patrol, and an Aeldari Outrider with just Reavers, Hellions and a Craftworld Farseer Skyrunner as an HQ.
However, if I keep my army like that, I won't be able to use any obsessions at all. If I divide my original Battalion into 3 Patrols (Coven, Cult and Kabal) I'll have too many detachments, since apparently most places stick to max 3 detachments.
I would love to read something about this. How to divide detachments, and what's the best way to combine DE and Harlequins (and maybe Craftworlds).

I already have something written for Eldar, I'll do Harlequins next! Smile Once the new book comes out, I will be playing DE/Harlequins or Aeldari soup depending on what's good.
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PostSubject: Re: HERO's 8th Ed. articles and requests   Tue Apr 10 2018, 20:00

@Chippen wrote:
I'd like to see a "common lists you encounter at tournaments/competitive play and how to beat them with DE" type thing. Could be a recurring topic as well.

This is a great idea, I've added it.

I've also added the "how to get HQs into battle" conversation. Right now, I think either a forced flank with Screaming Jets + Reavers might be a good delivery mechanism. However, I'm also very aware that 20 Wyches with WWP might be worthwhile as well.
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PostSubject: Re: HERO's 8th Ed. articles and requests   Tue Apr 10 2018, 20:15

I've requested this on your facebook post but I'm going to go ahead and echo it here.

I'd love to see some detailed discussion on how to approach the movement phase as DE. Unit placement seems to be the key my success as a DE player and I'd love to see how more experienced players than me approach about it.

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PostSubject: Re: HERO's 8th Ed. articles and requests   Tue Apr 10 2018, 20:53

An article on just flyers? Voidraven and Razorwing with a discussion on the bonuses of each obsession they can take?
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PostSubject: Re: HERO's 8th Ed. articles and requests   Tue Apr 10 2018, 21:19

@FrankyMcShanky wrote:
I've requested this on your facebook post but I'm going to go ahead and echo it here.

I'd love to see some detailed discussion on how to approach the movement phase as DE.  Unit placement seems to be the key my success as a DE player and I'd love to see how more experienced players than me approach about it.


Yup! I've also bumped this up in priority so it will be after the bubble-wrapping guide today.
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PostSubject: Re: HERO's 8th Ed. articles and requests   Tue Apr 10 2018, 23:42

Having read all the articles you linked, having a full battle report might be good. Reading down the evolving lists is interesting, but we never see the incidents that change your mind about things.
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PostSubject: Re: HERO's 8th Ed. articles and requests   Wed Apr 11 2018, 00:04

Do an article on how to run a mixed brigade.

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