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Calyptra
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PostSubject: Using a different cult/kabal/coven   9/4/2018, 00:12

I just want to make sure I have this right.

As I understand it, if I'm playing a cult/kabal/coven that doesn't have its own rules, I choose whichever obsession I like, but I don't get access to the associated strategems and artefacts. So, for example, if I'm using the Hex and decide to use the Dark Creed's obsession, I wouldn't also be able to use the Dark Creed's strategems and artefacts.

Is that correct?

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PostSubject: Re: Using a different cult/kabal/coven   9/4/2018, 00:22

You are correct, yes, but for mechanics you can just say you are whatever established Cult/Kabal/Coven.

This is only really relevant when there are special characters or other unique units associated with your "successor" army. Since you're making one up that has no real rules, it doesn't matter.

If there was a Cult of Insidious Spankings special character, and they had the same obsession as the Cult of Strife, you couldn't have Lilith and that special character in the same detachment and have them count as red strife.
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Dalakh
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PostSubject: Re: Using a different cult/kabal/coven   9/4/2018, 07:40

No, if you say your The Hex coven counts as the Dark Creed you can use it's unique traits, starts and wargear as well. It's basically a straight count as.


Last edited by Dalakh on 9/4/2018, 07:42; edited 1 time in total
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withershadow
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PostSubject: Re: Using a different cult/kabal/coven   9/4/2018, 08:15

@Dalakh wrote:
No, if you say your The Hex coven counts as the Dark Creed you can use it's unique traits, starts and wargear as well. It's basically a straight count as.

Yes, that is what I said.

Now if there really was a Hex coven that had the same obsession as Dark Creed, and they had their own unique character or unit, you couldn't play the Hex and still use Dark Creed stratagems.
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Calyptra
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PostSubject: Re: Using a different cult/kabal/coven   9/4/2018, 08:43

I see where it says you can choose one of the obsessions, but unless I'm missing it, it doesn't say you count as being the group whose obsession you chose. So if the Hex can choose the Prophets' obsession but doesn't count as being the Prophets, wouldn't that mean they don't get the trait, artefact, and strategem?

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Squidmaster
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PostSubject: Re: Using a different cult/kabal/coven   9/4/2018, 09:52

Ultimately, by choosing an Obsession you are saying "counts as that Kabal". In all regards.
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shadowseercB
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PostSubject: Re: Using a different cult/kabal/coven   9/4/2018, 12:02

@Calyptra wrote:
I see where it says you can choose one of the obsessions, but unless I'm missing it, it doesn't say you count as being the group whose obsession you chose. So if the Hex can choose the Prophets' obsession but doesn't count as being the Prophets, wouldn't that mean they don't get the trait, artefact, and strategem?

In your example if Hex picked Prophets they would count as prophets granting you everything in the prophets library of items and warlord traits and stratagems and you may use Urien Rakarth as well.

Pg. 114 of Codex

"If you have chosen a Kabal, Wych Cult or Haemonculus Coven that does not feature on these lists, you can choose the Kabal, Wych Cult or Haemonculus Coven Obsession (respectively) that best suits the fighting style and battlefield strategies of the warriors that hail from it."

So you can pick which ever Kabal, Wych Cult or Haemonculus Covens obsessions you want that are available in their list.   Just pretend Hex does not exist when choosing.

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Silverglade
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PostSubject: Re: Using a different cult/kabal/coven   9/4/2018, 15:14

Techinically..... you wouldn't be able to use Urien in the example given as he is Prophets of Flesh.

(Obviously most people would be fine with "counts as")

They actually clarify this specifically in the BA codex and say that if you take a successor chapter, you don't have access to any of the chapter specific artifacts.

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PostSubject: Re: Using a different cult/kabal/coven   9/4/2018, 15:23

i dont see the problem here? is it from a modelling pov? because if i buy a metric frak of wracks and run them unpainted across the board with a 4++ calling them prophets, it shouldnt matter. so if your coven is painted like the hex, there shouldnt be a problem as the hex is not available for obsessions
i see the differences with the space marines, where named characters cant lead successor chapters, but what stops you from saying: yeah these silver guys with robes are actually dark angels, see heres my azrael model
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Kantalla
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PostSubject: Re: Using a different cult/kabal/coven   10/4/2018, 03:34

As far as the rules say, there is a section in the Codex on p114 that says:
"If you have chosen a Kabal, Wych Cult or Haemonculus Coven that does not feature on these lists, you can choose the Kabal, Wych Cult or Haemonculus Coven Obsession (respectively) that bests suits the fighting style and battlefield strategies of the warriors that hail from it."

That is clear the Obsessions count, but not necessarily the Relics or Stratagems.

The mention of "battlefield strategies" implies Stratagems, but doesn't outright say it. The Blood Angels ruling implies a simple approach of saying "counts as Dark Creed" isn't necessarily right. Do Blood Angels successors gain some kind of special rules?

From a purely RAW perspective, I think your original interpretation is right. However, from an intention point of view, I can't imagine the game designers would want members of the Coven of Lazy Unpaintedness to have a game advantage over your glorious artworks. I struggle to imagine anyone objecting to you saying all my The Hex Coven models are using Dark Creed rules in their entirety.

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AzraeI
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PostSubject: Re: Using a different cult/kabal/coven   10/4/2018, 16:50

if you play a blood angels successor you wouldnt be able to use most of the stratagems in their own codex, because it says: "substitute BLOOD ANGELS with the successor name on the datasheets" not the stratagems, so no extra relics, no hellfire shot etc
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Kantalla
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PostSubject: Re: Using a different cult/kabal/coven   10/4/2018, 19:48

I don't own Blood Angels Codex. Is there a benefit to being a successor chapter?

If so, then it might be for balance reasons they take away some of the benefits of the pure chapter choice, and limiting any counts as benefits would be overly harsh. If not it lends weight to not getting Stratagems, Relics and Warlord Traits from a different Kabal / Cult / Coven.

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Lord Asvaldir
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PostSubject: Re: Using a different cult/kabal/coven   10/4/2018, 20:23

Nope, not benefit at all.

I feel like the whole names thing really doesn't matter. I'm going to make my own kabal, make all the lore and background for it, but I'll be using flayed skull traits/relics/stratagems. Really shouldn't be that big a deal.

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AzraeI
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PostSubject: Re: Using a different cult/kabal/coven   10/4/2018, 20:29

no there are only disadvantages playing a successor chapter, you cant take the named characters for example
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PostSubject: Re: Using a different cult/kabal/coven   11/4/2018, 07:24

Except for Gabriel Seth, who is Fleshtearees only if I remember correctly?

I think in this case “counts as” implies a straight substitution; if a=b, and c=b, then a=c.

My army, a, counts as army b. Stratagem c applies to army b. Since a=b, stratagem c also applies to army a.

At least, that’s how I plan to play it Smile
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AzraeI
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PostSubject: Re: Using a different cult/kabal/coven   11/4/2018, 15:11

yes exactly, gabriel seht is the exception
i would, i do also play it this way with my custom chapter/sept/kabal/dynasty
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PostSubject: Re: Using a different cult/kabal/coven   11/4/2018, 20:55

From what I've seen it doesn't matter at all from a local pick up game standpoint. However, it could come up in a tournament. That said, Flesh Tearers being spelled out in the codex is probably the biggest issue as you can't have Seth and the BA artifacts in the same detachment.

I have a home brew Cult that is a "counts as" Strife army and I haven't had an issue in any tournament.
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PostSubject: Re: Using a different cult/kabal/coven   12/4/2018, 01:18

The illegal combination of seth and that artifact is why that BA dude who was leading pulled himself from...Adepticon? since he didn't think he could legally fix the list through simple removal iirc.

Interestingly in our case I don't think that would matter since the codex literally tells us to substitute the variable cult and coven tags for lelith and urien respectively for matched play list building purposes.
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PostSubject: Re: Using a different cult/kabal/coven   16/4/2018, 23:56

So are we sort of saying:

If I start a brand new Kabal, I can then choose to either pick any of the 4 Named Kabal obsessions & not have access to Stratagems & Relics, as I'm not 1 of the 4 named Kabals.

Or, I start a new Kabal & say it's a count as Named Kabal & just call it whatever I want. But I get relics & stratagems?
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Kantalla
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PostSubject: Re: Using a different cult/kabal/coven   17/4/2018, 00:12

It's totally reasonable to say my custom painted Coven uses the rules for say Prophets of Flesh. You could even run a Master Haemonculus with Urien rules. That means all rules includes relics / traits / obsessions / stratagems.

Just don't be a naughty Blood Angels player and use base chapter traits and subfaction characters.

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