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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Black Heart Transports for all!   Sat Apr 07 2018, 17:44

So the more and more i look at the codex and digest it all in, the more tricks/combos i am finding.

Black Heart is just a must for now on it seems.

Black Heart Spearhead
Archon
Ravager
Ravager
Ravager
Dedicated Transports
Raider (Or venom)
Raider (Or venom)
Raider (Or venom)
(Optional 4th)Raider

Some other DE detachment: Like Obsidian Rose, or even Wych cult, etc...
HQ (Archon)
Troop (Kabals, 5/10 mans 1/2/3 weapons)
Troop (Kabals, 5/10 mans 1/2/3 weapons)
Troop (Kabals, 5/10 mans 1/2/3 weapons)
(optional 4th unit)


This will give all your transports and Heavy vehicles a 6+++, i know it doesnt sound like a lot, but having played with 7 vehicles the other night as BH's i can say over 3-4 turns with 7 vehicles, totaling over 50 damage hitting them all, the 6+++ basically kept 1 more vehicle alive on the table compare to if it i didnt have that 6+++ save.

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PostSubject: Re: Black Heart Transports for all!   Sat Apr 07 2018, 18:01

Yup, a Black Heart Spearhead consisting of a Warlord Archon w/ the Labyrinthine Cunning trait and 3 Ravagers is so useful I'd say it should be the core of every Drukhari army. Add to that any Mandrakes, Incubi or Scourges you may want to field and any transports needed for the 6+++.

Then, you fill out your army with troops from Obsidian Rose, Poisoned Tongue, Cursed Blade, Prophets etc etc. Originally I was thinking I'd base my army around Flayed Skull, but the Black Heart Archon trait & stratagem are too good to pass up.
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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: Black Heart Transports for all!   Sat Apr 07 2018, 19:33

Nice find.

So, looks like Black Heart is a good place to put Mandrakes, Scourges and such (to unlock additional transports).

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PostSubject: Re: Black Heart Transports for all!   Sat Apr 07 2018, 19:37

For Raiders and Ravagers Black Heart is great, but I think for Venoms I think Flayed Skull might perform better. Greater move speed, ignoring cover and re-rolling 1s to hit is huge compared to a 6+++ save.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Black Heart Transports for all!   Sat Apr 07 2018, 19:53

@Burnage wrote:
For Raiders and Ravagers Black Heart is great, but I think for Venoms I think Flayed Skull might perform better. Greater move speed, ignoring cover and re-rolling 1s to hit is huge compared to a 6+++ save.

The Archon give re-rolls 1's to hit and wounds, yes you need to be close to him, just just saying.

I do agree tho, venoms are not that good using them this way, and Raiders are best,

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PostSubject: Re: Black Heart Transports for all!   Sat Apr 07 2018, 20:45

The extra move is nice on raiders too, but the 6++ does help compensate for not having the -1 to hit.

Given that you roll for each wound, though, is it really that significant vs. anti-tank firepower? It takes the average damage from a lascannon hit from 1.52 wounds to 1.27 wounds. Seems small.

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The Strange Dark One
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PostSubject: Re: Black Heart Transports for all!   Sat Apr 07 2018, 20:49

I'd rather have the extra movement from the Flayed Skull obsession, honestly. 3" can make the difference in making a charge or not.

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PostSubject: Re: Black Heart Transports for all!   Sat Apr 07 2018, 21:03

@Burnage wrote:
For Raiders and Ravagers Black Heart is great, but I think for Venoms I think Flayed Skull might perform better. Greater move speed, ignoring cover and re-rolling 1s to hit is huge compared to a 6+++ save.

What about Poison Tongue? Is rerolling 1s better or worse than a 6+++?

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Black Heart Transports for all!   Sat Apr 07 2018, 21:22

@withershadow wrote:
The extra move is nice on raiders too, but the 6++ does help compensate for not having the -1 to hit.

Given that you roll for each wound, though, is it really that significant vs. anti-tank firepower?  It takes the average damage from a lascannon hit from 1.52 wounds to 1.27 wounds.  Seems small.


In my last couple games, yes it made the difference, remember we are talking about 60+ wounds to kill 6 Vehicles (Raiders/Ravagers), if you save average, thats 10 wounds saved, that is a full vehicle that didnt die. I also used the -1 to hit on a Ravager for 2 turns (he had a AT vehicle so it was well worth it) the -1 to hit with a 5/++6+++ turn 1 he was only able to do 4 wounds to it with over 200pts AT vehicle (the Primaris one) shooting it lol.



@The Strange Dark One wrote:
I'd rather have the extra movement from the Flayed Skull obsession, honestly. 3" can make the difference in making a charge or not.

Having my vehicles left alive was more important for me, but i also have been playing with 3x3 Reavers and i dont need to get closer than i already am with Raiders/Ravagers, moving 14" was good enough, but i also was playing Obsidian Rose so i didn't need to get closer.

Not saying its a must, but i was able to live longer and do more damage which was nice.

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PostSubject: Re: Black Heart Transports for all!   Sat Apr 07 2018, 21:37

Not new, but should be encouraged:
http://www.thedarkcity.net/t17273-transport-obsession-question-and-thought

Also been heavily discussed on the fb page. I guess to some people it's new.. to the point of disbelief.
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PostSubject: Re: Black Heart Transports for all!   Sat Apr 07 2018, 21:38

@amishprn86 wrote:
...
@The Strange Dark One wrote:
I'd rather have the extra movement from the Flayed Skull obsession, honestly. 3" can make the difference in making a charge or not.

Having my vehicles left alive was more important for me, but i also have been playing with 3x3 Reavers and i dont need to get closer than i already am with Raiders/Ravagers, moving 14" was good enough, but i also was playing Obsidian Rose so i didn't need to get closer.

Not saying its a must, but i was able to live longer and do more damage which was nice.

I see the benefit of a 6+++ on a Venom which you want to have as a mobile splinter platform. Since you want to have them stick around as long as possible.

But for my Raiders I just want to deliver the payload as fast and possible and be done with them. Bonus points if they still live and contribute some shooting with Lances/Disintegrators.

In the case of Raiders, a 6+++ can't do a lot when your enemy dedicates all his shooting towards it. Or does your experience tell you otherwise? I'd be interested to hear some specifics.

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PostSubject: Re: Black Heart Transports for all!   Sat Apr 07 2018, 21:38

No no, that makes perfect sense. Depending on how you develop your list, that is the beauty of mixing our various subfactions.

Obsidian Rose warriors riding in Black Heart makes perfect sense, you can hang back at 24" and blast the crap out of stuff.  Then you don't really need the extra movement, so you are just trading ignoring cover for the 6++, which I think is more than fair with a base -4AP weapon.

The faster Raiders are better for Wych cults, in which case I think Red Grief may have the edge over the +3" of Flayed Skull.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Black Heart Transports for all!   Sat Apr 07 2018, 21:49

@HERO wrote:
Not new, but should be encouraged:
http://www.thedarkcity.net/t17273-transport-obsession-question-and-thought

Also been heavily discussed on the fb page.  I guess to some people it's new.. to the point of disbelief.

I didnt see either post, sorry, (dont like dup topics if i can help it) and didnt know people on the FB was in disbelief lol, its the DE way!



@withershadow wrote:
No no, that makes perfect sense. Depending on how you develop your list, that is the beauty of mixing our various subfactions.

Obsidian Rose warriors riding in Black Heart makes perfect sense, you can hang back at 24" and blast the crap out of stuff.  Then you don't really need the extra movement, so you are just trading ignoring cover for the 6++, which I think is more than fair with a base -4AP weapon.

The faster Raiders are better for Wych cults, in which case I think Red Grief may have the edge over the +3" of Flayed Skull.

Yep

@The Strange Dark One wrote:
@amishprn86 wrote:
...
@The Strange Dark One wrote:
I'd rather have the extra movement from the Flayed Skull obsession, honestly. 3" can make the difference in making a charge or not.

Having my vehicles left alive was more important for me, but i also have been playing with 3x3 Reavers and i dont need to get closer than i already am with Raiders/Ravagers, moving 14" was good enough, but i also was playing Obsidian Rose so i didn't need to get closer.

Not saying its a must, but i was able to live longer and do more damage which was nice.

I see the benefit of a 6+++ on a Venom which you want to have as a mobile splinter platform. Since you want to have them stick around as long as possible.

But for my Raiders I just want to deliver the payload as fast and possible and be done with them. Bonus points if they still live and contribute some shooting with Lances/Disintegrators.

In the case of Raiders, a 6+++ can't do a lot when your enemy dedicates all his shooting towards it. Or does your experience tell you otherwise? I'd be interested to hear some specifics.

Well if you are charging up fast to unload guys then i agree with you because you are not trying to keep your Raiders alive longer than 2 turns and they most likely will charge as well, the +3" is important at that point

For me 3-4 turns + is very important to keep them alive, i have 3 out of 9 vehicles alive on turn 4 the other knight, and due to lack of fire power they stayed alive the rest of the game.

For me, playing vehicle heavy (3 Ravagers, 3 Raiders, 3 Venoms was my list for vehicles) it really helped a lot.

I saved about 13-15 wounds in total, keeping a Raider alive for an extra turn, kept my guys alive for an extra turn (10 warriors 2 Blasters).

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PostSubject: Re: Black Heart Transports for all!   Sat Apr 07 2018, 21:59

No worries mate.  It was more that people are freaking the F out and I'm like.. this isn't new.. and it's very DE. It's even funnier when DE players start crying; it's almost like they're used to being bad and having no tricks so having this is scary new.

But yes, I wrote about Black Heart as well a few days ago.  I think it's overall the best Kabal.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Black Heart Transports for all!   Sat Apr 07 2018, 22:14

@HERO wrote:
No worries mate.  It was more that people are freaking the F out and I'm like.. this isn't new.. and it's very DE.  It's even funnier when DE players start crying; it's almost like they're used to being bad and having no tricks so having this is scary new.

But yes, I wrote about Black Heart as well a few days ago.  I think it's overall the best Kabal.

Agree, the more i'm playing the more i want to in my Black Heart.

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PostSubject: Re: Black Heart Transports for all!   Sun Apr 08 2018, 15:55

At first I felt like BH was boring and weak but I had both my Ravagers survive effectively 15 wounds with some lucky rolls. I still think Flayed Skull is much better for most units but the pure survivability BH gives vehicles is incredibly helpful.

I'll probably run my air wing as BH now too.
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PostSubject: Re: Black Heart Transports for all!   Sun Apr 08 2018, 16:58

I wonder if Vect likes the fact his Kabal appears to have branched out to form a taxi service for the rest of Commoragh? It appears he's cornered the market...
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PostSubject: Re: Black Heart Transports for all!   Sun Apr 08 2018, 17:06

@Rusty293 wrote:
I wonder if Vect likes the fact his Kabal appears to have branched out to form a taxi service for the rest of Commoragh? It appears he's cornered the market...

He has a monopoly now, just how he likes it.
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PostSubject: Re: Black Heart Transports for all!   Sun Apr 08 2018, 17:10

The funny thing is that a BH detatchment is not necessary (right now) for play his stratagem Smile so we don't really need to play BH in list.

Anyway, fnp6+ on veichles still fine!
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PostSubject: Re: Black Heart Transports for all!   Sun Apr 08 2018, 17:22

@Cerve wrote:
The funny thing is that a BH detatchment is not necessary (right now) for play his stratagem Smile so we don't really need to play BH in list.

Anyway, fnp6+ on veichles still fine!
I have a feeling that will get FAQ'd
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PostSubject: Re: Black Heart Transports for all!   Sun Apr 08 2018, 17:30

@Crazy_Ivan wrote:
@Cerve wrote:
The funny thing is that a BH detatchment is not necessary (right now) for play his stratagem Smile so we don't really need to play BH in list.

Anyway, fnp6+ on veichles still fine!
I have a feeling that will get FAQ'd

Yeah I think it too.
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PostSubject: Re: Black Heart Transports for all!   Sun Apr 08 2018, 17:35

I have difficulty making a list without Black Heart at this point. I have saved so many raiders because of the 6+++ save and of course the other abilities.

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PostSubject: Re: Black Heart Transports for all!   Sun Apr 08 2018, 17:38

@Cerve wrote:
The funny thing is that a BH detatchment is not necessary (right now) for play his stratagem Smile so we don't really need to play BH in list.

Anyway, fnp6+ on veichles still fine!

And the Re-roll 1's to wound

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PostSubject: Re: Black Heart Transports for all!   Sun Apr 08 2018, 17:47

@amishprn86 wrote:
@Cerve wrote:
The funny thing is that a BH detatchment is not necessary (right now) for play his stratagem Smile so we don't really need to play BH in list.

Anyway, fnp6+ on veichles still fine!

And the Re-roll 1's to wound


Gne, I find it pretty situational. It's great on Ravagers, but more I think more I find safer keeping my Ravagares in DS with Screaming Jets.
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PostSubject: Re: Black Heart Transports for all!   Sun Apr 08 2018, 17:54

@Cerve wrote:
@amishprn86 wrote:
@Cerve wrote:
The funny thing is that a BH detatchment is not necessary (right now) for play his stratagem Smile so we don't really need to play BH in list.

Anyway, fnp6+ on veichles still fine!

And the Re-roll 1's to wound


Gne, I find it pretty situational. It's great on Ravagers, but more I think more I find safer keeping my Ravagares in DS with Screaming Jets.

Who says you cant do both?

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