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Elfric
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PostSubject: Agents of Vect strategem    Sat Apr 07 2018, 15:32

This is a very powerful, if not expensive, counter strategem and really could be the difference in how a match could turn out.

In what circumstances would this be justifiable to use? Could you also use this to stop someone successfully seizing the initiative?
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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Agents of Vect strategem    Sat Apr 07 2018, 15:50

It's justified to take that as an option at a tournament. Just to screw with the mind and plan of your opponent.
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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: Agents of Vect strategem    Sat Apr 07 2018, 16:11

To prevent the avatar of khayne from resurrecting.
To stop any '' shoot twice '' stratagem.
Maybe to stop fire prisms from twin linking onto your tantalus.
To stop the 'moral immunity' stratagem from stopping that important unit to flee.

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Dalakh
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PostSubject: Re: Agents of Vect strategem    Sat Apr 07 2018, 16:24

Prevent a 10 man stack of dark reapers with farseer support from blasting the everliving frak out of what you're about to deep strike into their face.
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AzraeI
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PostSubject: Re: Agents of Vect strategem    Sat Apr 07 2018, 17:38

@Dalakh wrote:
Prevent a 10 man stack of dark reapers with farseer support from blasting the everliving frak out of what you're about to deep strike into their face.

now that you mention it, if i deepstrike a unit in front of them, and then a character behind the unit, would they be able to target the character even if he is not the closest model?
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Squidmaster
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PostSubject: Re: Agents of Vect strategem    Sat Apr 07 2018, 20:41

Strategem I would DEFINITELY put a stop to:

THE AVATAR RESURGENT
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Dalakh
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PostSubject: Re: Agents of Vect strategem    Sat Apr 07 2018, 22:54

@AzraeI wrote:
@Dalakh wrote:
Prevent a 10 man stack of dark reapers with farseer support from blasting the everliving frak out of what you're about to deep strike into their face.

now that you mention it, if i deepstrike a unit in front of them, and then a character behind the unit, would they be able to target the character even if he is not the closest model?

I don't think they could because the stratagem says "Your unit can immediately shoot at that enemy unit as if it were the shooting phase". Phase in which you wouldn't be able to target the character in question if it was farther than the unit.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Agents of Vect strategem    Sat Apr 07 2018, 23:31

Not rules related so moving to tactics - Count Adhemar

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Dr.Morbid
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PostSubject: Re: Agents of Vect strategem    Tue Apr 10 2018, 00:42

I have a question to that: If I roll a 1 can I use another CP to re-roll it?
I think yes, but there might be a rule against this.

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Voidhawk
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PostSubject: Re: Agents of Vect strategem    Tue Apr 10 2018, 00:55

@Dr.Morbid wrote:
I have a question to that: If I roll a 1 can I use another CP to re-roll it?
I think yes, but there might be a rule against this.

You can, and almost certainly should. (Unless you've already used a command re-roll that phase of course.)
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AzraeI
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PostSubject: Re: Agents of Vect strategem    Tue Apr 10 2018, 00:56

@Dr.Morbid wrote:
I have a question to that: If I roll a 1 can I use another CP to re-roll it?
I think yes, but there might be a rule against this.

command reroll stratagem:
"You can reroll any single dice"

chapter approved limits of command:
cant reroll dice determining who goes first, deploys on wich side and seizes, and battle if the battle ends
nothing in your way to blow all your cp for one stratagem
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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: Agents of Vect strategem    Tue Apr 10 2018, 00:57

You can ABSOLUTELY use the re-roll to affect the stratagem, just means your now spending 4CP to stop a single enemy stratagem (with the enemy probably getting their CP back).

This will be gold for armies that can get the CP's required to fund the ability. Keep in mind the Warlord Trait Labyrinthine Cunning will allow you to roll off for the enemy CPs, regardless if it gets refunded (so double CP generation most likely). If you can come to the party with more CP than the enemy, they should shake.

Now that I have had time to digest, we do have enough Mercs in our army that a Kabalite Brigade is possible...

BTW, this cant affect stratagems that happen before the game to DS units, like our own WWP.
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helvexis
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PostSubject: Re: Agents of Vect strategem    Tue Apr 10 2018, 02:21

im still looking forward to the agent of vect sub battles that will inevitably go on when black heart v black heart happens.

Player 1: i use fire and fade to get my scourge the hell out of dodge after i just whiffed all their blaster shots.
Player 2: I use Agents of Vect to deny this, rolls 2, suck it they shall die to warrior shooting oh so soon.
Player 1: ... But wait i use Agents of Vect to to deny your Agent of Vect, rolls 1, cra...
Player 2: SUCK IT.
Player 1: i command reroll that, rolls 6, suck it yourself! ...
Player 2: ... Gods dammit Vect why have you betrayed me so.
Vect: because fate is fickle and so am i  
a feint maniacal laughter is heard
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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: Agents of Vect strategem    Tue Apr 10 2018, 02:44

The best thing is when the opponent use a 2-3 CP stratagem. Then you block it with 3 CP stratagem.

Then you have Labyrinth Cunning...


Agents+Cunning is freaking awesome (I would say even umbalanced). Tested myself to day, Cunning+Prophets Trait (+D3) and I was able to use Agents like 2-3 times in a single game.
It's embarassing...
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Lord Asvaldir
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PostSubject: Re: Agents of Vect strategem    Tue Apr 10 2018, 04:04

It's not unbalanced, people seem to forget that cunning has a 1/6 chance of going off. For every game where you make back a ridiculous 6-7 cp with the trait, you're going to have a game where you get only a single cp back or none. Still think it's a great trait, just not as great as many think it is.

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helvexis
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PostSubject: Re: Agents of Vect strategem    Tue Apr 10 2018, 04:56

@Lord Asvaldir wrote:
It's not unbalanced, people seem to forget that cunning has a 1/6 chance of going off. For every game where you make back a ridiculous 6-7 cp with the trait, you're going to have a game where you get only a single cp back or none. Still think it's a great trait, just not as great as many think it is.

This one!! it is a great trait but it is far from reliable, the Coven cp gain is far more reliable as a method to gain command points but has far less potential gain. so take both Smile at worst you break even
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shadowseercB
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PostSubject: Re: Agents of Vect strategem    Tue Apr 10 2018, 05:36

@Elfric wrote:
This is a very powerful, if not expensive, counter strategem and really could be the difference in how a match could turn out.

In what circumstances would this be justifiable to use? Could you also use this to stop someone successfully seizing the initiative?

I have used it against my opponent trying to attack again in melee with his Chaos Space marines stratagem at the end of the fight phase.

Against a reroll to wound on melta gun that would have destroyed a Talos pain engine.

Stopping a C'tan from generating other "spells".

Prevent my opponent from Rerolling a failed save.

Prevented a reroll on mortal wounds from a spell that could have killed Lilith.

Prevented Wrath of Mars from being used on Mechanicus robots.

And others that I cant think of.

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Alezya
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PostSubject: Re: Agents of Vect strategem    Tue Apr 10 2018, 07:46

@Elfric wrote:
This is a very powerful, if not expensive, counter strategem and really could be the difference in how a match could turn out.

In what circumstances would this be justifiable to use?

Pfouuu the list goes on:

-Preventing "The walking dead" stratagem on poxwalkers: I will use this stratagem to make sure that these low cultists will be powerful boosted poxwalkers (1 CP). Nope nope.
-Preventing the "hey! i have a 40-men unit of cultists who are now only 5 people! They will come up to 40 again and will pop up from the edge of the battlefield" (2 CP). Nope nope.
-Preventing the "I now destroyed your Ravagers with my 3 Obliterators. I will now do that again on these Ravagers" (2 CP). Nope nope.
-Preventing the +2 Bonus to cast on stuff like Magnus for his supersmite (2 CP). Nope nope.
-You happen to kill the sorcerer with Warptime. Your opponent will use 1 CP to swap one of his spell for a mandatory warptime: Nope it with Agents of Vect.
-Preventing the "interception" stratagem mostly used on Dark Reapers.
-Preventing the "fire & fade" stratagem on Eldars.
-Preventing the "Avatar reborned" stratagem. Though I never saw any games with the Avatar yet...
-Preventing the "Linked fire" stratagem for Fire Prism.
-Preventing the "I will cast another spell" stratagem on various codices.
-Preventing a dramatic reroll that would make the difference:
The opponent rolls 1 on the D6 dmg that would kill your ravager/HQ/whatever you want to save at all cost: Reroll the 1? nope nope.  
The opponent couldn't cast that crucial warptime to get his tzaangors in good range of closing your first line? He wants to reroll one of the dice through CP reroll? no my friend! You're good to go with your 8+ roll (assuming he has brayhorn).
-You did a lot of dmg in a very big blob, and you want that unit destroyed at the morale check because they are sitting on objectives/they are annoying/they are in your deployment/you don't like them/whatever. Your opponent is going to use 2 CP to auto success the morale check. You don't want that: Boom! Agents of Vect! In ya face!
-Preventing another Agents of Vect stratagem that would counter one of yours! Very Happy
-You killed Guilliman. Your opponents rolls to see if he comes back: not. Reroll with CP: Noooo Guilliman is dead and will stay so!
And the list goes on and on...

This Agents of Vect "the nope nope" stratagem basically counters most of the stratagem stuffs that are creating broken situations in the current meta.
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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: Agents of Vect strategem    Tue Apr 10 2018, 07:56

@Lord Asvaldir wrote:
It's not unbalanced, people seem to forget that cunning has a 1/6 chance of going off. For every game where you make back a ridiculous 6-7 cp with the trait, you're going to have a game where you get only a single cp back or none. Still think it's a great trait, just not as great as many think it is.

Yea sure...it is for any CP spent for you and your Opponent.
Agents of Vect is a (nearly) 50% of taking 1 CP back, alone.
Considering that your opponent is spending too when you're using it, chances are way more than 50%.

And you use it for the entire game..

I tried it yesterday. I got almost 4 points back during the entire game. 4 points, they're a lot! It's not a 6+ for any your stratagem, it's a 6+ for any CP from both players.
And it works even if you're not in the battlefield.

Agents or Vect is balanced if you're considering to use it like once for game...but I was able to play it nearly 3-4 times in three turns, thanks to Cunning!

Still unbalanced for me. I tried it, it's too strong. I can see an incoming Errata for Labirinthe Cunning that will fix it into: "you can't roll for any CP spent before the game starting" or it will be nearly broken.


Last edited by Cerve on Tue Apr 10 2018, 12:11; edited 1 time in total
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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: Agents of Vect strategem    Tue Apr 10 2018, 10:21

Quote :
It's not a 5+ for any your stratagem, it's a 5+ for any CP from both players.

It's 6+.

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Dalakh
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PostSubject: Re: Agents of Vect strategem    Tue Apr 10 2018, 10:48

LMAO if you roll a 5+ for every single CP used no wonder you think it's OP. lol!
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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: Agents of Vect strategem    Tue Apr 10 2018, 12:11

@Mppqlmd wrote:
Quote :
It's not a 5+ for any your stratagem, it's a 5+ for any CP from both players.

It's 6+.

Yeah I know, I writed bad. But I'm saying that is nearly broken at 6+
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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: Agents of Vect strategem    Tue Apr 10 2018, 12:12

@Dalakh wrote:
LMAO if you roll a 5+ for every single CP used no wonder you think it's OP. lol!

No I just miswriting, I meaning 6+
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Hellstrom
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PostSubject: Re: Agents of Vect strategem    Tue Apr 10 2018, 15:08

It's really not though. Assuming both sides have 9 CP each, which is quite a lot, that's only going to get you 3 extra CP on average over an entire game, assuming everyone uses all of their CP. Hardly game-breaking
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Trueborn44
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PostSubject: Re: Agents of Vect strategem    Tue Apr 10 2018, 15:21

@Hellstrom Not that I'm arguing that agents is broken, but that math is too simple. 2/3 of the time when you use Vects your opponent doesn't lose the command points. So say you use Vects 3 times on 3 2CP stratagems, chances are your opponent only spent 2. However, you still get to roll for them trying to spend the command points, so it's almost like they had 13 command points to begin with. It also applies more the earlier you get to use VA, as your opponent has more turns to spend their command points and so you have more room for this to spiral further. Even still, I would hardly call it broken.
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