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 I don't like the drugs, but the drugs like me

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HERO
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PostSubject: Re: I don't like the drugs, but the drugs like me   Sat Apr 07 2018, 00:43

F the luck or more dice, throw the right weapons into the mix, like Agonizers or BPs that +1 Strength doesn't benefit. If you're looking to inflict wounds, bring shh that ACTUALLY inflicts wounds.

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Woozl
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PostSubject: Re: I don't like the drugs, but the drugs like me   Sat Apr 07 2018, 00:43

For a wych-heavy army (where you aren't just filling slots for CP to get at reavers or something, but instead relying on them for board control and damage output), I wonder if cult of the cursed blade will end up being all but mandatory for the morale control.
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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: I don't like the drugs, but the drugs like me   Sat Apr 07 2018, 00:48

@HERO wrote:
@Soulless Samurai wrote:
@HERO wrote:
Another generic Warlord Trait I love on the attack stacked Succubus is the 6s = Mortal Wounds.  That's really freaking strong man.. especially from T3-onwards.

What changes on T3? Aren't you already hitting on 2s with rerolls?

No no my friend, something much better happens.

Flensing Fury means you ADD 1 to Hit rolls, which is different than +1 to Hit.  This allows you to proc things that typically need 6s to activate on 5s instead.

Yeah, but unless I'm mistaken you only get Mortal Wounds on a wound roll of 6+, not a hit roll of 6+. So +1 to hit still doesn't help them activate.

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PostSubject: Re: I don't like the drugs, but the drugs like me   Sat Apr 07 2018, 00:49

@Soulless Samurai wrote:
@HERO wrote:
@Soulless Samurai wrote:
@HERO wrote:
Another generic Warlord Trait I love on the attack stacked Succubus is the 6s = Mortal Wounds.  That's really freaking strong man.. especially from T3-onwards.

What changes on T3? Aren't you already hitting on 2s with rerolls?

No no my friend, something much better happens.

Flensing Fury means you ADD 1 to Hit rolls, which is different than +1 to Hit.  This allows you to proc things that typically need 6s to activate on 5s instead.

Yeah, but unless I'm mistaken you only get Mortal Wounds on a wound roll of 6+, not a hit roll of 6+.

Dang, my mistake. No book on me, thought it was to Hit. Well, WHIPPING Succubus it is then!

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Dizzie
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PostSubject: Re: I don't like the drugs, but the drugs like me   Sat Apr 07 2018, 01:01

@Woozl wrote:
For a wych-heavy army (where you aren't just filling slots for CP to get at reavers or something, but instead relying on them for board control and damage output), I wonder if cult of the cursed blade will end up being all but mandatory for the morale control.

I don't think so, here's how i see it, if your wyches are getting shot at they won't be much use anyway so having that morale is not going to help much.
On the flip side of that, if wyches make combat, they are where they need to be and will not die fast, generally they will tarpit for a few turns and either win or lose through attrition, this gives you time to win fights elsewhere and not have to deal with your opponents filth for a few turns.
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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: I don't like the drugs, but the drugs like me   Sat Apr 07 2018, 01:33

@Dizzie wrote:
@Woozl wrote:
For a wych-heavy army (where you aren't just filling slots for CP to get at reavers or something, but instead relying on them for board control and damage output), I wonder if cult of the cursed blade will end up being all but mandatory for the morale control.

I don't think so, here's how i see it, if your wyches are getting shot at they won't be much use anyway so having that morale is not going to help much.
On the flip side of that, if wyches make combat, they are where they need to be and will not die fast, generally they will tarpit for a few turns and either win or lose through attrition, this gives you time to win fights elsewhere and not have to deal with your opponents filth for a few turns.

That's not true. With new nets, even 5 survived wyches can tarpit an enemy infantry unit. .And still getting objectives.

I love 20-20-20 Wyches with S4 and morale buff
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Quauchtemoc
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PostSubject: Re: I don't like the drugs, but the drugs like me   Sat Apr 07 2018, 01:34

@Soulless Samurai wrote:
@HERO wrote:
@Soulless Samurai wrote:
@HERO wrote:
Another generic Warlord Trait I love on the attack stacked Succubus is the 6s = Mortal Wounds.  That's really freaking strong man.. especially from T3-onwards.

What changes on T3? Aren't you already hitting on 2s with rerolls?

No no my friend, something much better happens.

Flensing Fury means you ADD 1 to Hit rolls, which is different than +1 to Hit.  This allows you to proc things that typically need 6s to activate on 5s instead.

Yeah, but unless I'm mistaken you only get Mortal Wounds on a wound roll of 6+, not a hit roll of 6+. So +1 to hit still doesn't help them activate.

Now i am thinking about it the Hydra Gauntlet synergive well with this warlord trait, but i'm still not sure its worth it
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Dizzie
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PostSubject: Re: I don't like the drugs, but the drugs like me   Sat Apr 07 2018, 01:44

@Cerve wrote:


I love 20-20-20 Wyches with S4 and morale buff

I love this ^
Though would a horde wyche army work?, that morale is as juicy as the rest in this scenario, something to consider and play test i guess.
Its kinda funny we would think this could be even viable, oh how times have changed lol!
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withershadow
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PostSubject: Re: I don't like the drugs, but the drugs like me   Sat Apr 07 2018, 02:10

I don't know if 20-strong Wych units are strong. Maybe with webway portal deployment and the +1T drug? Would have to wait until turn 2 to get that re-roll on the charge from PfP.

I think 3x10 Wyches in Raiders blocking LOS to a big blob of Hellions would work better. I'd give the all the Wyches +1S or +1A, and give the Hellions +1T (give the movement to one succubus, WS to glaive succubus, and Ld to a beastmaster or something).
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LordSplata
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PostSubject: Re: I don't like the drugs, but the drugs like me   Sat Apr 07 2018, 02:40

The problem with the logic that the higher possible damage output version of two similar average weapons is that you also have more probability of getting lower damage. This can be compounded if your top damage comes out against A Target with not enough wounds to take all that damage.

On the wyches s vs a debate, if you put them into my calculator in the sticky of the discussion thread you can see a graph of all the probabalistic damage a squad will do.
Now that is better than standard averaging mathhammer!
(Please note it doesn't handle DX shot weapons yet)
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withershadow
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PostSubject: Re: I don't like the drugs, but the drugs like me   Sat Apr 07 2018, 04:18

@HERO wrote:
@Soulless Samurai wrote:
@HERO wrote:
@Soulless Samurai wrote:
@HERO wrote:
Another generic Warlord Trait I love on the attack stacked Succubus is the 6s = Mortal Wounds.  That's really freaking strong man.. especially from T3-onwards.

What changes on T3? Aren't you already hitting on 2s with rerolls?

No no my friend, something much better happens.

Flensing Fury means you ADD 1 to Hit rolls, which is different than +1 to Hit.  This allows you to proc things that typically need 6s to activate on 5s instead.

Yeah, but unless I'm mistaken you only get Mortal Wounds on a wound roll of 6+, not a hit roll of 6+.

Dang, my mistake.  No book on me, thought it was to Hit.  Well, WHIPPING Succubus it is then!
Yeah, sadly they chose to curb our enthusiasm for the +1 to hit by stopping it working on anything that may care to proc something, like ranged attacks, Incubi stratagem, or this. Ah well.
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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: I don't like the drugs, but the drugs like me   Sat Apr 07 2018, 11:06

@HERO wrote:

See, you say that, but +1 attack and +1S on Wyches literally net the same damage output vs. T4 and T5.  That's why I disagree when we're talking specifically to Wyches.

Indeed. So +1 A and +1 S are the same bonus in mathhammer.

So if you have to choice between ALWAYS +1 S or SOMETIMES +1 A, what do you pick ?
And if you gain moral immunity with the S bonus on top of that ?
That's why Cursed Blade is best. It offers a lot more, and a lot more consistently.



So the best scenario is clear to me : get +1 S from Cursed Blade, then you can pick at the start of the game if you want 4 S4 (to clear T3 and T4) or 3 S5 (to double your wounds against T8).

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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: I don't like the drugs, but the drugs like me   Sat Apr 07 2018, 11:28

@Dizzie wrote:
@Cerve wrote:


I love 20-20-20 Wyches with S4 and morale buff

I love this ^
Though would a horde wyche army work?, that morale is as juicy as the rest in this scenario, something to consider and play test i guess.
Its kinda funny we would think this could be even viable, oh how times have changed lol!  

They works.

They help a lot against any enemy DS. You create a large interdition zone all around your deploy thanks to them.
If your opponent focus them, he needs to kill all of them. And you're just losing Wyches.
It's a great place where to put your Succubi.
That net is embarassing. You can charge any Obliterator, DC, any deepstriking unit and block them with you in CC without spending any fire upon it. It helps a lot to choose your targets turn by turn.
If in good number, they still hit hard. Even without any drug!
Power Swords come back.
You obviously need to get the scenario: you have to build a list around them, and not focus too much on them. Put other eggs on the basket, get more targets on the board for your enemy, makes him struggle to shoot on your ladies.

No, you don't need a webway portal fort them. Keep it for more juicy units (20 Kabal, 20 Hellions, 10 Grotesques etc). Wyches works amazing by creating caos in the table. They are like annoying flyes, which can tarpit down, do some damage and just deny DS or keeping objectives.

And they can die, i they are not your best unit in the list.
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The Red King
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PostSubject: Re: I don't like the drugs, but the drugs like me   Sat Apr 07 2018, 13:53

You can always use the strat to bump the wyches up a turn on the PfP chart for a turn to help with the charge.

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PostSubject: Re: I don't like the drugs, but the drugs like me   Sat Apr 07 2018, 15:17

@The Red King wrote:
You can always use the strat to bump the wyches up a turn on the PfP chart for a turn to help with the charge.

Yeah, that's true. But personally, as I said, I prefer keeping the Webway stratagem for bigger guys. So in that case I'll use that +1PfP stratagem on these ones Smile

But yes, we have a lot of occasional stratagems that works great. Like the one who allow you to retreat, fire and charge again. Those 20 Wyches will be never locked down in melee with someone...if they don't want to! (Nor those Grotesques anyway).

I love how this Codex opens new non-MSU styles of gameplay. Keeping the MSU super valuable anyway!
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PostSubject: Re: I don't like the drugs, but the drugs like me   Sat Apr 07 2018, 16:08

Agreed. My current list has a 20 wych blob that I plan to wwp, because everything else is loaded up in a vehicle.

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Khayyin
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PostSubject: Re: I don't like the drugs, but the drugs like me   Sun Apr 08 2018, 15:44

The most annoying problem with the drugs I have now is that I want to take a lot of cult units (2or 3 reavers, 2 Wyches, Succubus and Hellions). But the more units I take the more units have to choose bad drugs that are not ideal for them and don't help them at all. Its still better than roling for the drugs but mehhhh. I really don't like it.

One solution I see is to take small minimum size throw away units that get the bad drugs. But for those point I could take other better units....

Before the new Dex I usually had so few cult units that I could just choose the best drugs...


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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: I don't like the drugs, but the drugs like me   Sun Apr 08 2018, 15:47

@Khayyin wrote:
The most annoying problem with the drugs I have now is that I want to take a lot of cult units (2or 3 reavers, 2 Wyches, Succubus and Hellions). But the more units I take the more units have to choose bad drugs that are not ideal for them and don't help them at all. Its still better than roling for the drugs but mehhhh. I really don't like it.

One solution I see is to take small minimum size throw away units that get the bad drugs. But for those point I could take other better units....

I wish drugs worked differently. I'd rather you got to choose one and apply it army-wide, rather than each unit having to use a different drug.

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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: I don't like the drugs, but the drugs like me   Sun Apr 08 2018, 16:17

@Khayyin wrote:
The most annoying problem with the drugs I have now is that I want to take a lot of cult units (2or 3 reavers, 2 Wyches, Succubus and Hellions). But the more units I take the more units have to choose bad drugs that are not ideal for them and don't help them at all. Its still better than roling for the drugs but mehhhh. I really don't like it.

One solution I see is to take small minimum size throw away units that get the bad drugs. But for those point I could take other better units....

Before the new Dex I usually had so few cult units that I could just choose the best drugs...

That is actually a balancement issue Very Happy
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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: I don't like the drugs, but the drugs like me   Sun Apr 08 2018, 16:27

It's quite the opposite really.

You throw the bad drugs on your Succubi/Beastmasters, and then you can spam the +1A drug on everyone else.

The more units you have, the more you'll benefit from that +1A drug, and the stronger you'll be.

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Quauchtemoc
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PostSubject: Re: I don't like the drugs, but the drugs like me   Sun Apr 08 2018, 16:29

@Mppqlmd wrote:
It's quite the opposite really.

You throw the bad drugs on your Succubi/Beastmasters, and then you can spam the +1A drug on everyone else.

The more units you have, the more you'll benefit from that +1A drug, and the stronger you'll be.

true, and honestly this rule is fine considering their is only two really bad drug
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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: I don't like the drugs, but the drugs like me   Sun Apr 08 2018, 16:33

Eh, now that we have Red Grief i don't think there are even bad drugs.

- bonus ld is incredible for beastmasters. But if you don't play beastmaster, then you have a tax drug.

- bonus mvt, often called the "cardio succubus" drug

- bonus WS, useful on your Red Grief Reavers (agreed, it's not as good as +T or +A, but it isn"t useless).

- T, A and S are the best

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Quauchtemoc
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PostSubject: Re: I don't like the drugs, but the drugs like me   Sun Apr 08 2018, 17:01

Yeah even the +1 to hit is ok. And the +2Cd is still decent on not Cursed Blade big which unit
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