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 I don't like the drugs, but the drugs like me

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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: I don't like the drugs, but the drugs like me   Fri Apr 06 2018, 17:14

Something striked me today.

- 19pts for Reavers with T4-5, W2, and first turn charge...

- 14pts for Hellions with access to S5, A3, D2...

- 8pts for wyches with access to S5, A3, D1...

- 50ish pts Succubus with a relic to make her S6, AP-3 D3 damage...

Holy crap, is Cult actually playable ?  Shocked  And yes, yes it is.  Twisted Evil


So never mind me, but i'm building my Cult list, and it will go like this :

Cult of Red Grief FA detachment (vanguard something?)

- Succubus with Blood glaive (WL trait to be tested) and mvt/cardio drug

- 12 reavers with T drug

- 12 reavers with Hit drug (actually useful when you charge first turn)

- 20 Hellions with S or A drug



Cult of the Cursed Blade Battalion :

- Succubus with LD drug (coz useless)
- Succubus with A drug
- 10 wyches with either S or A drug (depending on target), and 2*hydra gaunts+shardnet
- 10 wyches with either S or A drug (depending on target), and 2*hydra gaunts+shardnet
- 10 wyches with either S or A drug (depending on target), and 2*hydra gaunts+shardnet
- 3 Raiders


- 5 Scourges with HWB
- 5 Scourges with HWB
- 5 Scourges with HWB


My local GW hasn't delivered my Codex yet (grmlmlml truck problem... Evil or Very Mad  ) but this looks like it would fall under the 1750 treshold, and boy, will it be fun to use...

Probably a bit light on AT though.

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withershadow
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PostSubject: Re: I don't like the drugs, but the drugs like me   Fri Apr 06 2018, 17:28

I don’t consider Hellions playable, although the stratagem makes it tempting. I would pretty much always give them T4. Unless your opponent is just swimming in heavy bolters, that bump is a significant assist to their survival chances.
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PostSubject: Re: I don't like the drugs, but the drugs like me   Fri Apr 06 2018, 17:30

I want to try this. I would supplement with Razorwings, or possibly a black heart detachment. I would consider swapping some (but not all) of the HWB scourges with blaster scourges.

Finally, I wouldn't overlook birds/ beasts for screens.
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PostSubject: Re: I don't like the drugs, but the drugs like me   Fri Apr 06 2018, 17:31

I want to play them in that comp before I pronounce myself on their playability.
Sure, the enemy can destroy them if he focuses, but will he be able to? With so many reavers and scourges on his face turn 1, I'm not sure hellions will be a priority.

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PostSubject: Re: I don't like the drugs, but the drugs like me   Fri Apr 06 2018, 17:38

I like it, horde of wyches/reavers/hellions just rushing up the field full speed seems like a very fun list to me, and man does it really feel so much more playable now. I do think for cult lists though you're going to want some fliers, ideally probably two razorwings since they provide such good firesupport now. Probably stick with dark lances over dissie cannons on them since you need the anti tank. If the list would go up to 2k that would probably be fairly easy to fit in.

Sure you could also add in what seems it may turn into the fan favorite, the spearhead detachment with 3 ravagers, but I feel like you should stick to the theme, pure cult should be fun so I'd roll with it.

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Chippen
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PostSubject: Re: I don't like the drugs, but the drugs like me   Fri Apr 06 2018, 18:46

But light on AT, but you still have points for Blasters and Grav talons everywhere. You can also add some more Blaster/HWB Scourge into the Outrider too.

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PostSubject: Re: I don't like the drugs, but the drugs like me   Fri Apr 06 2018, 21:07

I've got a few questions when it comes to using Reavers:

1) Do you think it's better to run them as one big unit or a few small ones? I used to prefer the latter (and it would help unlock an Outrider Detachment), but it makes it more of a pain in terms of handing out drugs.

2) Which Cult do you think is best for Reavers?

3) Which drug do you think is best for them?

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PostSubject: Re: I don't like the drugs, but the drugs like me   Fri Apr 06 2018, 21:28

@Soulless Samurai wrote:
I've got a few questions when it comes to using Reavers:

1) Do you think it's better to run them as one big unit or a few small ones? I used to prefer the latter (and it would help unlock an Outrider Detachment), but it makes it more of a pain in terms of handing out drugs.

2) Which Cult do you think is best for Reavers?

3) Which drug do you think is best for them?

1. Both have a use. A large big squad can take advantage of drugs and any stratagems and grav talons for several mortal wounds in one melee phase to spike damage and battleshock. Small squads are able to engage shooting units to lock them down

2. Red Grief, absolutely, because it emphasizes their main advantage: speed. Cursed blade does little, since they have a set S value on their weapons and only very large 9+ units would have to start worrying about morale. Strife is nice for that extra attack, too. Normally strife is my least favorite, but if you want Lilith, you gotta strife!

3. A or T. For small units, you can use the less popular options, like +2" movement so they can engage even further targets, or +1 to hit since red grief can engage on first turn, etc.
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PostSubject: Re: I don't like the drugs, but the drugs like me   Fri Apr 06 2018, 21:31

1) I'll be running small, no upgrade units to tie up as much as i can. i really want to use min units to lock down important enemy shooting T1.

2) red greif, allows for T1 charges.

3) toughness, the damage drugs are better suited for your damage dealers, reavers are mainly a unit that you shove down the enemies throat because they are fast and surprisingly resilient. the ws drug is second best because it is useless on most other units, and you can use it before pfp kicks in.

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PostSubject: Re: I don't like the drugs, but the drugs like me   Fri Apr 06 2018, 21:51

How about S7 cursed blade hellion? great for AT. (Hellions S4 with their glaive, +1 for the cult, +1 for the drug, and double-drug when you strike)
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PostSubject: Re: I don't like the drugs, but the drugs like me   Fri Apr 06 2018, 22:41

@withershadow wrote:

1. Both have a use. A large big squad can take advantage of drugs and any stratagems and grav talons for several mortal wounds in one melee phase to spike damage and battleshock. Small squads are able to engage shooting units to lock them down

2. Red Grief, absolutely, because it emphasizes their main advantage: speed. Cursed blade does little, since they have a set S value on their weapons and only very large 9+ units would have to start worrying about morale. Strife is nice for that extra attack, too. Normally strife is my least favorite, but if you want Lilith, you gotta strife!

3. A or T. For small units, you can use the less popular options, like +2" movement so they can engage even further targets, or +1 to hit since red grief can engage on first turn, etc.

@wormfromhell wrote:
1) I'll be running small, no upgrade units to tie up as much as i can. i really want to use min units to lock down important enemy shooting T1.

2) red greif, allows for T1 charges.

3) toughness, the damage drugs are better suited for your damage dealers, reavers are mainly a unit that you shove down the enemies throat because they are fast and surprisingly resilient. the ws drug is second best because it is useless on most other units, and you can use it before pfp kicks in.

Thanks for replying, guys.

The thing is, I was under the impression that Reavers were one of the harder-hitting Wych units (Blasters, S4 AP-1 attacks, can deal Mortal Wounds when they charge etc.). If they're just a fast tarpit, what do you consider hard-hitting units in a pure Cult list?

Or is the idea to use Cult stuff just to tarpit, and then have a Kabal detachment to act as the hammer?

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PostSubject: Re: I don't like the drugs, but the drugs like me   Fri Apr 06 2018, 22:54

@Soulless Samurai wrote:
@withershadow wrote:

1. Both have a use. A large big squad can take advantage of drugs and any stratagems and grav talons for several mortal wounds in one melee phase to spike damage and battleshock. Small squads are able to engage shooting units to lock them down

2. Red Grief, absolutely, because it emphasizes their main advantage: speed. Cursed blade does little, since they have a set S value on their weapons and only very large 9+ units would have to start worrying about morale. Strife is nice for that extra attack, too. Normally strife is my least favorite, but if you want Lilith, you gotta strife!

3. A or T. For small units, you can use the less popular options, like +2" movement so they can engage even further targets, or +1 to hit since red grief can engage on first turn, etc.

@wormfromhell wrote:
1) I'll be running small, no upgrade units to tie up as much as i can. i really want to use min units to lock down important enemy shooting T1.

2) red greif, allows for T1 charges.

3) toughness, the damage drugs are better suited for your damage dealers, reavers are mainly a unit that you shove down the enemies throat because they are fast and surprisingly resilient. the ws drug is second best because it is useless on most other units, and you can use it before pfp kicks in.

Thanks for replying, guys.

The thing is, I was under the impression that Reavers were one of the harder-hitting Wych units (Blasters, S4 AP-1 attacks, can deal Mortal Wounds when they charge etc.). If they're just a fast tarpit, what do you consider hard-hitting units in a pure Cult list?

Or is the idea to use Cult stuff just to tarpit, and then have a Kabal detachment to act as the hammer?

Well now the wych herself are the hard hitting unit, but you can still play the reaver as a hammer i thing, with unit of 9 ,+1 tougness and gravitic i think its still a dangerous unit
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PostSubject: Re: I don't like the drugs, but the drugs like me   Fri Apr 06 2018, 22:54

I really don't think of cult units as a tarpit anymore. Just compare say wyches to wracks. Base stats, yeah maybe wyches are somewhat equal to wracks, wyches can technically be same toughness better invul, but throw in a haemonculus and prophets of flesh on the wracks and now you have a t5 +4 invul, and their save works all the time not just in cc. I'd much rather take wych units as assault damage dealers because now wyches can have a variety of stats based on drugs, but they are usually going to be at least 3 attacks s4 or 4 attacks s3.

Reavers can be outfitted to do damage with grav talons, the flyover stratagem and blasters along with a good drug, but I think that depends on taking a big unit to take advantage of all those facts. Small reaver units I wouldn't think of as tarpits, but more just units that can move incredibly fast and ensure your opponent's good shooting units like say a unit of heavy weapon teams are locked in cc and can't shoot first turn.

Hellions on the other hand are always going to be damage dealers, they are technically the weakest cult unit and can't tarpit at all. No matter what obsessions you're taking they are damage healers.

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PostSubject: Re: I don't like the drugs, but the drugs like me   Fri Apr 06 2018, 23:26

I'm going to write about this next, but the TLDR is, I'm starting to like Wych Cults, but only in small sizes.

First, they have really cheap HQs and Troops.

This gives us one of the easiest Battalions to throw into our KABAL (who I will preach is our mainstay) as allies.

Example:
2x Succubus
3x Squads of Min Wyches with Agonizer/BP/Shardnet

2 Succubus with Wyches in 1 Raider, the other 2x5 in the other Raider. Buy your Raiders off the Black Heart market for safety reasons.

Boom, you just added +3 CP to your army wanting to take Wyches in the first place.

Sprinkle rest to taste: Looking at your Reavers.

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PostSubject: Re: I don't like the drugs, but the drugs like me   Fri Apr 06 2018, 23:30

Wyches can have 5 s3, 4 s4, or 3 s5.
The first one isn't great, the second one is optimal, and the latter is great to wound t8 on 5+ (allowing some heavy duty).

Hellions are a very specific tool. They are the only multiwound dealers in cult, and thus they have to hunt multiwounds targets. Outside from that they pretty much suck, but they can down a tyrannid tyrant pretty fast.

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PostSubject: Re: I don't like the drugs, but the drugs like me   Fri Apr 06 2018, 23:42

I think overall, Strife might be the best mathematically if we're just looking at damage delivery through Raiders. The big one here is that it benefits Agonizers which is something strength doesn't benefit.

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PostSubject: Re: I don't like the drugs, but the drugs like me   Fri Apr 06 2018, 23:52

For me, cursed blade is clearly the best. Let's say you want your wyches to have 4s4 attacks, which is imo the best spot.
You can go adrenalight + cursed blade.
Or strife + black lotus.

If you go strife + black lotus, you'll have 3s4 attacks, +1 on the charge.
If you go cursed blade + adrenalight, you have 4s4 all the time, plus the moral immunity.

The real thing is that strife has a good stratagem, and a good warlord trait... But in obsessions cursed blade is the winner imo.

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PostSubject: Re: I don't like the drugs, but the drugs like me   Fri Apr 06 2018, 23:59

I'd agree with that assessment, it seems like a solid catch-all trade if you just want to throw in a just a couple of cult units to support the rest of the force. Another note, strife is the trait that probably benefits all three of the main cult units equally, as strife does very little for reavers, while red grief doesn't benefit wyches a whole lot.

That being said in my first game tomorrow I'll be trying red grief as I probably plan on focusing on reavers for my wych force.

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PostSubject: Re: I don't like the drugs, but the drugs like me   Sat Apr 07 2018, 00:14

Succubi are looking really good, and I'm liking that there seems to be good builds for them regardless of which Cult you choose.

I guess I'm just constantly surprised by how cheap they are. Granted, many of the builds I've seen involve Relics and/or Warlord Traits, but still.

Do you think Blast Pistols are now a good investment for Succubi and Wych sergeants? (Assuming you're not taking a Wych weapon on the succubus.)


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PostSubject: Re: I don't like the drugs, but the drugs like me   Sat Apr 07 2018, 00:16

That's the main advantage of how our obsessions function, you get to cherry pick the best traits for the best units. Taking Cursed Blade for wyches and Red Grief for Reavers sounds better than taking Strife as a compromize (but that's only my opinion).

That being said, Strife allows you to play the 9-exploding-attacks-succubus-nado, which is hilariously awesome.

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PostSubject: Re: I don't like the drugs, but the drugs like me   Sat Apr 07 2018, 00:17

@Mppqlmd wrote:
For me, cursed blade is clearly the best. Let's say you want your wyches to have 4s4 attacks, which is imo the best spot.
You can go adrenalight + cursed blade.
Or strife + black lotus.

If you go strife + black lotus, you'll have 3s4 attacks, +1 on the charge.
If you go cursed blade + adrenalight, you have 4s4 all the time, plus the moral immunity.

The real thing is that strife has a good stratagem, and a good warlord trait... But in obsessions cursed blade is the winner imo.

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I can't shake how much I'm in love with the 64 point Succubus with Tryptich Whip and Blast Pistol.

With Strife, Blood Dancer, Adrenalight, you have 9 attacks that hits on 2s, re-rolling 1s, and each Hit roll of 6 turns into 3 hits. Last game, I had 14 hits with the damn girl that turned into 9 wounds against TH/SS Termies. Sure, she died eventually but it was one of the most satisfying experiences ever. She only gets better on T3 with PFP because you now have a further +1 to hit which means the exploding dice comes from 5s instead of 6s.

Another generic Warlord Trait I love on the attack stacked Succubus is the 6s = Mortal Wounds. That's really freaking strong man.. especially from T3-onwards.

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PostSubject: Re: I don't like the drugs, but the drugs like me   Sat Apr 07 2018, 00:19

@Mppqlmd wrote:
That's the main advantage of how our obsessions function, you get to cherry pick the best traits for the best units. Taking Cursed Blade for wyches and Red Grief for Reavers sounds better than taking Strife as a compromize (but that's only my opinion).

That being said, Strife allows you to play the 9-exploding-attacks-succubus-nado, which is hilariously awesome.

See, you say that, but +1 attack and +1S on Wyches literally net the same damage output vs. T4 and T5. That's why I disagree when we're talking specifically to Wyches.

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PostSubject: Re: I don't like the drugs, but the drugs like me   Sat Apr 07 2018, 00:19

@HERO wrote:
Another generic Warlord Trait I love on the attack stacked Succubus is the 6s = Mortal Wounds.  That's really freaking strong man.. especially from T3-onwards.

What changes on T3? Aren't you already hitting on 2s with rerolls?

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PostSubject: Re: I don't like the drugs, but the drugs like me   Sat Apr 07 2018, 00:25

@Soulless Samurai wrote:
@HERO wrote:
Another generic Warlord Trait I love on the attack stacked Succubus is the 6s = Mortal Wounds.  That's really freaking strong man.. especially from T3-onwards.

What changes on T3? Aren't you already hitting on 2s with rerolls?

No no my friend, something much better happens.

Flensing Fury means you ADD 1 to Hit rolls, which is different than +1 to Hit. This allows you to proc things that typically need 6s to activate on 5s instead.

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PostSubject: Re: I don't like the drugs, but the drugs like me   Sat Apr 07 2018, 00:34

Something i never liked about math hammering is it ignores the potential, 5 s3 attacks has the potential to do a lot more, however you are right, working it out by average it is considered the worst option.
I was thinking the same about the haywire blaster and blaster debate too, I think people get too hung up on the averages and just flat out ignore what the unit can potentially do overall.

From 5 s3 to 4 s4 the difference in overall wounds against t4 is 2 total, 11.33 vs 13.66 not factoring in special weapons and anything else. For the sake of 2 wounds would you rather not test your luck and roll more dice, i know that math hammer certainly never seems to work for me in a real game.


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