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Lord Asvaldir
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PostSubject: Re: Talos wargear   Wed Apr 11 2018, 18:35

You're not wrong about the extra ap being really useful for flails, and probably macro-scalpels as well but I agree with Azrael, +4 invul is just great.

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withershadow
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PostSubject: Re: Talos wargear   Fri Apr 13 2018, 09:24

Don’t forget the +1 S from Urien for S8 Scalpels.

With power from pain, you’re hitting on 2+ and wounding on 2+.
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PostSubject: Re: Talos wargear   Fri Apr 13 2018, 09:36

@withershadow wrote:
Don’t forget the +1 S from Urien for S8 Scalpels.

With power from pain, you’re hitting on 2+ and wounding on 2+.

True but against nearly anything without a very good save you are better of with s6 and reroll
it will wound pretty much everything on a 3+ with a reroll which is better than a 2+.
You also double the attacks, which means that anything without multiple wounds or a save of 4+ or better suffers more damage flails than with scalpels.
Coven of twelve makes the flails become even better.
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withershadow
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PostSubject: Re: Talos wargear   Fri Apr 13 2018, 10:33

I intend on Prophets, but sure, AP matters. The math on the previous page suggested chainflail was only marginally better vs Guard/Cultists due to the lesser AP, while worse vs everything else. I’ll throw a flail in the unit just for variety, but it won’t be my go to armament.
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PostSubject: Re: Talos wargear   Fri Apr 13 2018, 18:30

@withershadow wrote:
I intend on Prophets, but sure, AP matters. The math on the previous page suggested chainflail was only marginally better vs Guard/Cultists due to the lesser AP, while worse vs everything else. I’ll throw a flail in the unit just for variety, but it won’t be my go to armament.

Because the math on the previous page everything but GEQ had a 3+ save or better.

If the math is done for demons, orks, gaunts, genestealers, eldar, necrons, tau it all is either equal or in favour of the flails.
Consider it like this, flails reroll to wound, which means for anything other than t= 7 or 12 or 13 each hit gives a larger chance to wound (yes this also goes for t4 and 6)
Now consider you get 10 attacks versus 6
Which means anything with a save worse than 4+ it is equal or in favour of the flails.
10 on a 4+ =>5
6 on a 4+ap2 thus 6+ =>5

Pretty much any single wound infantry that are not wearing power armour and the flails come out on top.
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Leninade
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PostSubject: Re: Talos wargear   Fri Apr 13 2018, 21:33

What you give up is a bit of your versatility, you have to keep in mind that having a talos with two scalpels doesn't have a desired target- one of the few units we have with that luxury. I'd rather take the 6 attacks and plan around board control instead of "what units does this need to deal with?"
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Mononcule
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PostSubject: Re: Talos wargear   Sat Apr 14 2018, 00:09

I think that a long range or high mobility unti can be built as a specialist, but with the talos I prefer versatility. He isnt fast enough to chase his favorite target.
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hexxenwyrd
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PostSubject: Re: Talos wargear   Wed May 02 2018, 18:13

So I'm just getting into dark eldar, and building some talos because I love the model. Have a craftworld army so was thinking of adding a 3 talos spearhead detachment, with scourges because scourges.
While prophets of flesh seem good if you're going heavily into coven for the urien buff, and giving all of your grotesques and wracks a 4++ instead of a 5++ save, for just talos the Coven of Twelve ability seems good.
Having a base 3+ armor means that you don't always rely on the invuln save, and +1 ap means the chain flail does work even against armored infantry, and the macro scaple can dig into most anything.
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withershadow
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PostSubject: Re: Talos wargear   Wed May 02 2018, 19:17

You’re also giving up the +1S, but sure.

I don’t like single Talos units, though, inefficient for stratagems so they are far less impactful.
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hexxenwyrd
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PostSubject: Re: Talos wargear   Wed May 09 2018, 15:18

so in all this somehow the most important question was not asked.

Hook macroscalpel or clever macroscalpel?
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LordSplata
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PostSubject: Re: Talos wargear   Thu May 10 2018, 05:54

Thanks to this topic, I found an error in the mathhammer spreadsheet.  I previously had chain flails listed as -1 AP.
This has now been adjusted, and I would recommend redownloading it if you use it. Mathhammer Calculator v2.0

As said above, macro scalpels have a lot more versatility than chain flails, while only being a little worse when they are not the best option.  
Additionally they do D2 damage, which when you look at our army as a whole very little does this type of damage, while with our new codex, hordes aren't nearly the problem they were before.

Based on this I'm going macro scalpels all the way to the bank.

On which Coven to use.  The 4+ save is where I may end up, but testing out the moral damaging one is what I want to give a really good try first.  The sheer negatives you can stack are incredible!
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Talos wargear   Thu May 10 2018, 11:07

I still put Chain/Scalpel on mine just b.c invul save units.

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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: Talos wargear   Thu May 10 2018, 11:11

@amishprn86 wrote:
I still put Chain/Scalpel on mine just b.c invul save units.

Does the chain help that much with invulnerable saves?

I'd have thought most units with invulnerable saves would have multiple wounds - so whatever you gained from the chains' extra attacks, you'd lose to the Scalpel's 2 damage.

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Talos wargear   Thu May 10 2018, 11:31

@Soulless Samurai wrote:
@amishprn86 wrote:
I still put Chain/Scalpel on mine just b.c invul save units.

Does the chain help that much with invulnerable saves?

I'd have thought most units with invulnerable saves would have multiple wounds - so whatever you gained from the chains' extra attacks, you'd lose to the Scalpel's 2 damage.

Invul infantry and even GEQ, remember its also re-roll wounds, the +1 Str isnt needed vs T3 at all, and armor 5+ or worst Invul 4+ the extra attacks are better.

GEQ Chain = 4.32
GEQ Macro = 3.33

Tzaangors Chain = 4.32
Tzaangors Macro = 2.22


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hexxenwyrd
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PostSubject: Re: Talos wargear   Thu May 10 2018, 19:44

Even vs normal MEQ the chain comes out slightly ahead.
chain= Hit chance x 3 unsaved wounds (okay 1/27 less than that).
2 macros= hit chance times x 2.77 (or the same as tzaangors)

Vs single wound models the chain is only worse at t3 3+ (and there it's close), or 2+ saves. An there aren't many 2+ save single wound models.

and you still get the macro option vs tougher models. So the question is "is being better against the targets the chain is better against, worth being slightly worse against the models the macro is better against".

If you're running coven of twelve the chain looks even better in comparison.
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withershadow
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PostSubject: Re: Talos wargear   Fri May 11 2018, 01:06

??

10x 0.83 (2+ to hit, assuming turn 3 or stratagem) x 0.89 (3+ re-roll to wound) x 0.33 (3+ save) = 2.4 wounds. So 2 marines, or 1 Primaris.

6x 0.83 x 0.83 (assuming +1S from Urien) x 0.66 = 2.73 So two, potentially 3, dead marines or 3 dead Primaris

Flails are better against 1W daemons and chaff infantry, nothing more.
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hexxenwyrd
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PostSubject: Re: Talos wargear   Fri May 11 2018, 01:13

Take the 2+ to hit out of the math, it's the same between the cases so just complicates the math.

Chain: 10 attacks X 8/9 Chance to wound (3+ rerolling) X 1/3 Chance to not save (3+ save)= 80/27
81/27= 3.

2x Macro: 6 attacks X 2/3 chance to wound (3+) X 2/3 Chance to not save (5+ Save)= 8/3= 2.3333.

You don't get to 'assume' +1s from Urien. You say "with Urien this is the comparison" then you note that in this case Urien is not with your Grot bomb.

This is a thing that really annoys me, Urien is a great buff, this is true. But don't assume he's applying to every single unit you have when making comparisons. A 6" buff bubble on a medium speed model that is buffing melee models is not going to be applying it all the time to all the models.
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withershadow
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PostSubject: Re: Talos wargear   Fri May 11 2018, 01:33

If we're talking about a big unit of Talos and a giant grot-bomb, yes, it absolutely will be applying all the time to all the models unless Urien is dead.
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hexxenwyrd
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PostSubject: Re: Talos wargear   Fri May 11 2018, 14:38

But now you don't have a grot bomb and a talos bomb. You have one big grot+talos bomb. 600+ points in a big scary melee brick.
That's far too much to 'assume' when making a general comparison.
In that particular case the chain comes out worse, because that brick has enough volume of attacks that it can chew through any small units, and you have so much committed into a big slow brick that you have to maximize how good you are against whatever might be in front of it.

But again, that's a specific case that must be stated, not something that can be taken as an assumption.
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withershadow
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PostSubject: Re: Talos wargear   Fri May 11 2018, 15:42

I think you underestimate the amount of space you can cover with a unit of large-based models when only one model needs to be within 6”. It becomes obvious if you play it out.
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hexxenwyrd
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PostSubject: Re: Talos wargear   Fri May 11 2018, 17:33

Daisy chaining with expensive melee models that seems like a great idea.
And still missing the main point, your assuming a given build in your comparison, but not acknowledging the assumption.


IF you are going for large blob of footslogging models daisy chaining around a single auea bubble, THEN your analysis is correct.
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withershadow
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PostSubject: Re: Talos wargear   Fri May 11 2018, 18:02

A 9-10 strong unit of Grotesques can spread out to cover a good chunk of the center board. Having Urien within 6" of ONE of them is not difficult. I don't know, I guess those 5 years playing Warmachine taught me how to maintain stuff within auras. I am not sure how I am not acknowledging the assumption when I specifically said "ASSUMING Urien buff". Anyway, this is clearly more personal to you than just a tactical discussion, so I will leave it at that.

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hexxenwyrd
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PostSubject: Re: Talos wargear   Fri May 11 2018, 18:18

You're right, you did say "assuming urien" my apologies.
However I did not mention urien in my comment calculating chains as better against meq. You assumed I included him when I didn't.
Then after your "assuming urien" math you made a statement that didn't include your assumption.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Talos wargear   Fri May 11 2018, 19:57

IDK if i like a 9man blob of Grots b.c of their low LD im always worried i'm going to be force to waste 2 CP on them, but everyone top tournament player is doing it, maybe mt 3x3 with 3 elewhips will test play a few times as 1x9 with 1 whip.

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PostSubject: Re: Talos wargear   Fri May 11 2018, 20:12

@amishprn86 wrote:
IDK if i like a 9man blob of Grots b.c of their low LD im always worried i'm going to be force to waste 2 CP on them, but everyone top tournament player is doing it, maybe mt 3x3 with 3 elewhips will test play a few times as 1x9 with 1 whip.

Grotesques are leadership 8, that doesn't scream low leadership to me?
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