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Lord Asvaldir
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PostSubject: Re: Talos wargear   Mon Apr 09 2018, 02:39

You sure about the liquifier? Yeah 2d6 automatic hits is nice, but it's expensive for what it does and the random ap is irritating. You're also giving up a close combat weapon, so not sure about that either. Especially since the talos is mainly a melee monster I don't see the need for another shooting weapon.

The weapon that interests me most is the chainflails. No ap sucks, but with 10 attacks I'm wondering if it's worth taking, and you can still save a macro-scalpel for higher damage/ap.

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withershadow
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PostSubject: Re: Talos wargear   Mon Apr 09 2018, 04:37

Not sure if worth it.

vs. T4 Sv3+
6 scalpel attacks = 2.6 D2 wounds get through.

10 flail attacks = 2.9 D1 wounds get through.


It does get better if they have crap saves.

vs T3 Sv5+
6 scalpels = 5 D2 wounds get through
10 flails = 6.4 D1 wounds get through
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colinsherlow
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PostSubject: Re: Talos wargear   Mon Apr 09 2018, 05:05

I like the macro scalples because they seem the most versatile to me. I would take urien if Intale a talos unit. He brings each macro talos to st8, ap2 and D2. And that st8 brings the numbers up a good bit against MEQ. Chain flails are great. I just want more ap doing multiple damage is solid. Makes the talos much better against bigger targets. The chain flails make the talos on slight better against GEQ, but that is pretty much the only good target for them. For the price I go for the more versatile cc weapons.

As for guns. I like to have at least 1 stinger pod for a solid assault weapon. Probably a stinger for all 3 in a unit because the 1st turn the talos will probably advance, shoot assault weapons and use the fire and fade strat to move them up the field. Solid!

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Silverglade
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PostSubject: Re: Talos wargear   Mon Apr 09 2018, 05:11

Not sure where you get your math from withershadow.   I have wildly different numbers than yours.

vs. MEQ
10 attacks: Hit 6.67 times, wound a total of 5.9 times (after re-rolls), so 1.98 D1 wounds after saves
6 attacks: Hit 4 times, wound 2.67 times, so 1.33 D2 wounds after saves

vs. GEQ
10 attacks: Hit 6.67 times, wound a total of 6.48 times (after re-rolls), so 4.3 D1 wounds after saves
6 attacks: Hit 4 times, wound 3.33 times, so 2.78 D2 wounds after saves


Important to note that on the MEQ line, each one of the scalpel attacks will kill one 2 wound model like primaris marines.

The chain flail is also 1 point cheaper (not that 1 pt makes a huge difference).    So vs. GEQ hordes, almost double the effectiveness.   Vs. higher T and multi wound models, the scalpel definitely becomes better.

As stated above, stick Urien nearby, and the macroscalpel is the clear winner vs. any infantry.


Last edited by Silverglade on Mon Apr 09 2018, 05:16; edited 1 time in total
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shadowseercB
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PostSubject: Re: Talos wargear   Mon Apr 09 2018, 05:15

@Lord Asvaldir wrote:
You sure about the liquifier? Yeah 2d6 automatic hits is nice, but it's expensive for what it does and the random ap is irritating. You're also giving up a close combat weapon, so not sure about that either. Especially since the talos is mainly a melee monster I don't see the need for another shooting weapon.

The weapon that interests me most is the chainflails. No ap sucks, but with 10 attacks I'm wondering if it's worth taking, and you can still save a macro-scalpel for higher damage/ap.

Good point, 22 points are expensive for the twin-liquifier gun on one model compared to the 3 points for the Chainflail.  I have been using liquifiers on my grotesques and they are very useful when cultists or scarabs (anything T3 I suppose) come charging at you especially if they can run and charge.  Both weapons are anti-horde but no AP on chain-flails may matter.  

I think ultimately the Talos would get more kills with a liquifier and macro-scalpel than with a chain-flail especially if you use the stratagem Cruel Desception which allows a unit that falls back to shoot and charge again.  Very useful against Astra Militarum especially since it is a thing again in tournaments for players to spam guardsmen meat walls as a delivery system for 3-5 custodes HQ Characters on bikes behind them and the standard to make any imperium units fearless requires a lot of killing.

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shadowseercB
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PostSubject: Re: Talos wargear   Mon Apr 09 2018, 05:43

I believe Silverglade's math is correct meaning chain-flails may not be worth taking at all.

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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: Talos wargear   Mon Apr 09 2018, 09:36

@Calyptra wrote:
I'm amused that apparently nobody is even considering the ichor injector.

I'm considering one on my Haemonculus. Very Happy

@withershadow wrote:
Anyone planning on backing up their Talosi with a Cronos? It seems really bad, but maybe the healing thing will work more often than I think.

To my mind it's like voluntarily paying for an extra tax HQ. Except it's in your Heavy Support slot for some reason.

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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: Talos wargear   Mon Apr 09 2018, 10:08

@Lord Asvaldir wrote:
You sure about the liquifier? Yeah 2d6 automatic hits is nice, but it's expensive for what it does and the random ap is irritating. You're also giving up a close combat weapon, so not sure about that either. Especially since the talos is mainly a melee monster I don't see the need for another shooting weapon.

The weapon that interests me most is the chainflails. No ap sucks, but with 10 attacks I'm wondering if it's worth taking, and you can still save a macro-scalpel for higher damage/ap.

I tried Taloi a lot, and when they don't charge is a pain.
With +1 attack in melee I'm going to kill 1 model, or doing 2 dmg to someone big.
A liquefier give me some punch even if I miss the charge, helping a lot against T3 wounds (which can tarpit my Taloi more than necessary), and even some overwatch against enemy charges (said T3/4 tarpit units).
In the worst scenario, I'm still doing more damages over time with the Liquefier than the additional CC weapon.

Yeah it's not cheap, but open up a lot of chances for me.
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Alezya
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PostSubject: Re: Talos wargear   Tue Apr 10 2018, 08:10

@Gorefather wrote:
@withershadow wrote:
Anyone planning on backing up their Talosi with a Cronos? It seems really bad, but maybe the healing thing will work more often than I think.

The Cronos is actually super important for a Coven beatstack. The heal is negligible, but rerolling 1s to wound is soooo nice.

Even with the reroll of 1s  to wound (you have to be within 6"), personally I think Cronos is just garbage (maybe the only we have ?). Specially if you play your Talos with chain flails.
Reroll 1s to hit would have been a thing for example.
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Hen Tai, the tentacle guy
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PostSubject: Re: Talos wargear   Tue Apr 10 2018, 08:37

The cronos is really cheap now, though. And if you overhype his capabilities to your oponent, he can soak up some fire that would otherwise hit other important stuff. I’ll keep one behind or in front of my taloi or grots.

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Hellstrom
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PostSubject: Re: Talos wargear   Tue Apr 10 2018, 10:17

So, a Talos charges a unit of Marines and on average will kill 1 (.33) model. Does no one else think that's terrible? Add to the fact that without a stratagem of some sort, 3 Lascannons will almost definitely kill it well before it gets to actually charge.
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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: Talos wargear   Tue Apr 10 2018, 10:39

@Hellstrom wrote:
So, a Talos charges a unit of Marines and on average will kill 1 (.33) model. Does no one else think that's terrible?  Add to the fact that without a stratagem of some sort, 3 Lascannons will almost definitely kill it well before it gets to actually charge.

I get a slightly higher figure (~1.78), but that's barely any batter.

It does seem pillow-fisted, compared to other monsters. Especially when it comes to damage. Most monsters have at least one weapon that does d6 damage or a straight 3 damage, but the best we can manage is d3. And that's with a weapon that gives -1 to hit but only adds 2 to our strength, rather than doubling it.

Anyone know why it lost a pip of strength and toughness?

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Calyptra
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PostSubject: Re: Talos wargear   Tue Apr 10 2018, 16:28

@Hellstrom wrote:
So, a Talos charges a unit of Marines and on average will kill 1 (.33) model. Does no one else think that's terrible?  Add to the fact that without a stratagem of some sort, 3 Lascannons will almost definitely kill it well before it gets to actually charge.

I assume you mean 3 lascannons hitting it, out of a greater number of lascannons that were shooting at it, but that shouldn't kill a Talos. 3 lascannons should be 2 wounds. If you're Prophets of Flesh, your invulnerable save should stop one of them. If you're a different coven or your dice are unkind, 2 lascannons doing 7 damage would be just enough, but your Inured to Suffering rolls should reduce that damage by 1, leaving your Talos with 1 wound remaining. A nearby Haemonculus with the Master Artisan trait would improve your Inured to Suffering rolls, and you can always spend 1 CP to restore D3 wounds.

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AzraeI
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PostSubject: Re: Talos wargear   Tue Apr 10 2018, 16:44

@Soulless Samurai wrote:
@Hellstrom wrote:
So, a Talos charges a unit of Marines and on average will kill 1 (.33) model. Does no one else think that's terrible?  Add to the fact that without a stratagem of some sort, 3 Lascannons will almost definitely kill it well before it gets to actually charge.

I get a slightly higher figure (~1.78), but that's barely any batter.

It does seem pillow-fisted, compared to other monsters. Especially when it comes to damage. Most monsters have at least one weapon that does d6 damage or a straight 3 damage, but the best we can manage is d3. And that's with a weapon that gives -1 to hit but only adds 2 to our strength, rather than doubling it.

Anyone know why it lost a pip of strength and toughness?  


why they lost a pip of strenght of toughness? to be buffed by a haemonculus of course?!
marines lost their ability to rerool ones too so they can be buffed by a captain right
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Woozl
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PostSubject: Re: Talos wargear   Tue Apr 10 2018, 16:50

Is it just me or is Master Artisan not worth it?

It turns a 6+ FNP to a 6+ FNP rerolling ones. Given that Urien seems like a VERY strong addition to a set of Talos (or more), it seems like having him in a list with Talos is a major boon that significantly offsets the alternative of a base Haemi + Master Artisan.

(You can still get Master Artisan, but it requires also having an Archon and paying a 3 CP so that Urien and the 2nd haemi can each have a WL trait, but that doesn't seem worth it).

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Lord Asvaldir
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PostSubject: Re: Talos wargear   Tue Apr 10 2018, 17:02

Master artisan definetly isn't worth it, who cares about a reroll 1s aura on fnp. Plus it's hard to consider the other the coven traits when soothsayer is so good.

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ShamPow1999
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PostSubject: Re: Talos wargear   Wed Apr 11 2018, 02:05

Actually, is the Ichor Injector the best close combat weapon we have on the Talos? My math may be wrong but:

vs. T4 3+ Save 1 Wound
Ichor:
5 attacks -> 10/3 hits -> 20/9 wounds -> 20/18 dead models
of those 10/3 hits -> 10/18 will be 6s leading to on average 20/18 dead models
That's 40/18 or 2.22 dead models
Scalpels:
6 attacks -> 4 hits -> 8/3 wounds -> 16/9 dead models
That's 32/18 or 1.78 dead models
Flails:
10 attacks -> 20/3 hits -> 40/9 wounds -> 40/27 dead models
That's 1.48 dead models

vs. T3 5+ Save 1 Wound
Ichor:
5 attacks -> 10/3 hits -> 20/9 wounds -> 100/54 dead models
of those 10/3 hits -> 10/18 will be 6s leading to on average 20/18 dead models
That's 160/54 or 2.96 dead models
Scalpels:
6 attacks -> 4 hits -> 8/3 wounds -> 8/3 dead models
That's 144/54 or 2.67 dead models
Flails:
10 attacks -> 20/3 hits -> 40/9 wounds -> 80/27 dead models
That's 160/54 or 2.96 dead models

vs. T7 3+ Save Multi-Wound
Ichor:
5 attacks -> 10/3 hits -> 10/6 wounds -> 10/12 damage
of those 10/3 hits -> 10/18 will be 6s leading to on average 20/18 damage
That's 35/18 damage or 1.94 damage
Scalpels:
6 attacks -> 4 hits -> 2 wounds -> 8/3 damage
That's 48/18 damage or 2.67 damage
Flails:
10 attacks -> 20/3 hits -> 20/6 wounds -> 20/18 damage
That's 20/18 damage or 1.11 damage

vs T8 3+ Save Multi-Wound
Ichor:
5 attacks -> 10/3 hits -> 10/6 wounds -> 10/12 damage
of those 10/3 hits -> 10/18 will be 6s leading to on average 20/18 damage
That's 35/18 damage or 1.94 damage
Scalpels:
6 attacks -> 4 hits -> 4/3 wounds -> 16/9 damage
That's 32/18 damage or 1.78 damage
Gauntlet:
5 attacks -> 5/2 hits -> 5/4 wounds -> 50/24 damage
That's 37.5/18 or 2.08 damage

vs. T8 2+ Save Multi-Wound
Ichor:
5 attacks -> 10/3 hits -> 10/6 wounds -> 10/18 damage
of those 10/3 hits -> 10/18 will be 6s leading to on average 20/18 damage
That's 30/18 or 1.67 damage
Scalpels:
6 attacks -> 4 hits -> 4/3 wounds -> 8/6 damage
That's 24/18 or 1.33 damage
Gauntlet:
5 attacks -> 5/2 hits -> 5/4 wounds -> on average 20/12 damage
That's 30/18 or 1.67 damage

It's not terrible!
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withershadow
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PostSubject: Re: Talos wargear   Wed Apr 11 2018, 02:11

You only can make one attack with an injector per turn.

For the ranged component, just take the pods and use the savings on more Talos.
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PostSubject: Re: Talos wargear   Wed Apr 11 2018, 08:07

While I think there's a solid case to be made for the dual scalpel, I think the scalpel + chain-flail is the way to go. At the cost of a single scalpel attack you gain the versatility of effectively being able to weed whacker your way through light infantry. The ichor injector doesn't seem like a good choice for a Talos, and the gauntlet doesn't seem like a good choice for anyone.

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PostSubject: Re: Talos wargear   Wed Apr 11 2018, 11:38

The other build I find kind or interesting is flail+Liquifier. Pure anti-GEQ lawnmower pain engine.

Also, torturers craft definitely looks like a compelling reason to run a unit of several taloi, probably all double clraver.
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PostSubject: Re: Talos wargear   Wed Apr 11 2018, 16:59

Twin liquefier is too expensive, I'm not paying 22pts for a s3 flamer no matter what its potential ap is. Chainflail though I do want to give a shot, I'm ok with giving up a scalpel attack for the little added extra versatility. Only time I'd likely use the flail though is against GEQ.

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Calyptra
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PostSubject: Re: Talos wargear   Wed Apr 11 2018, 17:06

The chain-flail also rerolls failed to wound rolls, which makes me wonder if there might be circumstances against T 8 or 9 targets where it's a better option than the macro-scalpel.

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PostSubject: Re: Talos wargear   Wed Apr 11 2018, 17:08

Possibly, but your average t8/9 target has a high armor save and multiple wounds, and with the macro-scalpel being ap-2 with 2 damage I'd find that difficult to imagine being the case.

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PostSubject: Re: Talos wargear   Wed Apr 11 2018, 17:36

Everyone is rightly looking at prophets of the flesh, but I think Coven of the Twelve goes especially well with chainflails. The AP 1 takes them over the top so chainflail talos now tie with macroscalples against marines. Makes them better at pretty much every other 1W infantry as well. AP tends to have diminishing returns. Vs a 2+ save, the first AP doubles your wounds. The 2nd increases them by 50% and the 3rd by only 33%. The 4++ is mighty tasty, but if you can give it up, especially the chainflails benefit.
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PostSubject: Re: Talos wargear   Wed Apr 11 2018, 17:47

true but that 4++ is just so annoyingly good
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