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WS0007
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PostSubject: Re: And here is our codex...   Sun 8 Apr - 22:54

@CptMetal wrote:
@Ubernoob1 wrote:
Sooo...on the line of "possible constructive ideas" what about an option for an actual "Venom Sky Chariot" since it's still being called that in certain places like some of the novels? Make a unit entry for at least the Archon, if not one or both of the other main HQs as well. No transport capacity but built in HQ stats like how the other chariot units work. Give it the character keyword like the necrons command barge so it could still be a warlord with trait, could hide behind other units with it having less than 10 wounds, etc. I think it'd be an interesting idea, would still represent the Archon riding a venom alone, would be a bit of a heralding back to 3e vect rules, and would be a new unit entry without actually requiring a brand new model.

I like that idea!
Under the Wych cult entry in the new codex they mention true born watching raids in real time floating above the combat zone in pleasure barges this idea may not be far off if sales are good now!
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Dark Elf Dave
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PostSubject: Re: And here is our codex...   Mon 9 Apr - 5:42

If you could put 6 in a Venom who would you put in the Venom?

It feels like a waste to me to have an Archon perched on a gun boat. I would want to get him into combat.

If you want to put your Archon with Incubi then you can...just give him a Raider.
If you want to put him with a Court then you can...give him either a Venom or Raider.
If you want to put him with 5 Kabs then you can...just give them a Raider.
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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: And here is our codex...   Mon 9 Apr - 5:53

@Dark Elf Dave wrote:
If you could put 6 in a Venom who would you put in the Venom?

It feels like a waste to me to have an Archon perched on a gun boat.  I would want to get him into combat.

Well, maybe we'd feel differently if he wasn't stuck with a crap Aura that magically stops working when he gets into a vehicle. Or if his Court didn't go blind whenever they're on the same transport as him. Wink

@Dark Elf Dave wrote:
If you could put 6 in a Venom who would you put in the Venom?

It feels like a waste to me to have an Archon perched on a gun boat.  I would want to get him into combat.

But you're assuming that you'll always be happy with a Raider instead.

Maybe I'm remembering, but I'm pretty sure Venoms are supposed to be desired by a lot of Archons as personal transports for them and their favoured Incubi, Trueborn or Court.

I appreciate that Trueborn don't exist anymore, but still.

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Dark Elf Dave
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PostSubject: Re: And here is our codex...   Mon 9 Apr - 6:08

Forget the fluff for a moment...

You can transport your Archon with pretty much any combo you want...if you use a Raider. I just don't see why this is a huge problem.

Back on fluff...

I don't see Archons really wanting to have wings implanted so that they can get around the battlefield faster when there are safer options available. And also Vect was always riding around in a pimped out Raider.

Now back on the aura's. I don't want any of my characters sitting on a Venom/Raider for the whole battle. I want them to do what they are good at and that requires that they all get into combat most of the time...then you can use your aura's.
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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: And here is our codex...   Mon 9 Apr - 6:24

@Dark Elf Dave wrote:

I don't see Archons really wanting to have wings implanted so that they can get around the battlefield faster when there are safer options available.

This seems like a bit of a stretch. If Archons wanted to play it safe then they wouldn't put themselves on the front line in the first place. And any melee weapons they carried would be for decoration only.

I mean, I can understand some - maybe even most - Archons preferring transports. However, it seems like there would be a reasonable number who would enjoy the thrill of flying themselves. Maybe they prefer to hang with the scourges rather than with any of the ponces in their court. Maybe they started as a Scourge, but with more ambition and more interest in the politics of the Dark City. Or, hell, maybe they're still a Scourge first and operate much like the Baron did in 5th (more of a mercenary/gang-leader than a true Archon).

Or, hell, maybe they want the best of both worlds - they have wings but still choose to fly around on their personal Venom most of the time. And if it gets shot down, well they just open their wings and step off onto empty air.

Here's the thing - the Archon is the only HQ Kabal have. I really think we can't be so rigid with his fluff - because, in spite of his name, he has to represent every possible HQ. He's an Archon, but he's also a Dracon. And a Gang Leader. And a Corsair Pirate. And an Incubus Lord.

You get what I mean, right? If we had several different Kabal HQs, then I could understand wanting to stick rigidly to the Archon's fluff. But when he's standing in for every other HQ, I don't think it's unreasonable to be a bit more flexible with him.

I mean, even if he had the option of wings, you'd still have the option of playing him strictly to fluff and never taking them, right?

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Dark Elf Dave
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PostSubject: Re: And here is our codex...   Mon 9 Apr - 6:54

And he can be all of those things while chilling on his Raider...and then you take him off his Raider charge something and kill it.

My point is that this isn't as big of a game play problem as some are making it out to be. Some (perhaps not you) are even suggesting we ask GW what they were thinking...I think it is pretty obvious they were thinking - you stick your Archon in a Raider.
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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: And here is our codex...   Mon 9 Apr - 7:08

@Dark Elf Dave wrote:
And he can be all of those things while chilling on his Raider

How exactly can he have wings and hang with Scourges by 'chilling in his Raider'? Neutral

@Dark Elf Dave wrote:

My point is that this isn't as big of a game play problem as some are making it out to be.

You seem to be saying that because this isn't a problem for you, it shouldn't be a problem for anyone.

@Dark Elf Dave wrote:
Some (perhaps not you) are even suggesting we ask GW what they were thinking...I think it is pretty obvious they were thinking - you stick your Archon in a Raider.

So can we remove all Bikes, Jump Packs, Thunderwolves etc. from Marine HQs and tell them that the solution is to put their HQs in Rhinos? Can we remove all Jetbikes and Wings from Eldar HQs and tell them to put their HQs in Wave Serpents?

Since apparently 'put your HQ in a transport' is the universal solution to everything.

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Dark Elf Dave
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PostSubject: Re: And here is our codex...   Mon 9 Apr - 7:47

A HQ in a transport IS the universal and theme fitting solution yes...of which I have no problem with at all.
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PostSubject: Re: And here is our codex...   Mon 9 Apr - 7:57

I don't think an Archon should get wings, or a jetbike. Doesn't fit his fluff in any way at all. And an Haemonculus on a jetbike seems even more stupid.
That said, I do think we should have more HQ options. I really wish the baron on a skyboard was still an option, or that we had a Scourge HQ for example. And aside from a Tantalus, we have no way to put 10 Wyches with a Succubus, or 10 Wracks with an Haemonculus together on one transport. But I also don't want to be forced to seperate them in order to transport them. The best thing about our HQ's are the Aura's :/ Right now, the only way of keeping those units together, is footslogging, or using CP to deepstrike.
And especially since Harlequins do get to board 1 transport with a Troupe AND their HQ, it seems just stupid that we can't.

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|Meavar
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PostSubject: Re: And here is our codex...   Mon 9 Apr - 8:47

I think for an archon or even haemonculous the problem is not that big. Most coven units have similar movement as the haemonculous, so he can keep up with them either in a vehicle or on foot.
Archons are sort of ok, although he cannot keep up with the vehicles. The biggest issue is for the fast units who now cannot have an HQ to support them, hellions and scourges move more than any character and it is nearly impossible to keep a character near them, but the biggest problem is our reavers. Even with 3 inch extra from disembarking from a vehicle no charracter comes even close to keeping up with a a charging reaver.
Now I agree wer are complaining here on a perfectly good and working codex. But I do find it silly none our HQ options can take a bike/wings/hoverboard while they are all melee oriented and thus have to get into cc.
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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: And here is our codex...   Mon 9 Apr - 9:00

@Gelmir wrote:
That said, I do think we should have more HQ options. I really wish the baron on a skyboard was still an option, or that we had a Scourge HQ for example.

I would happy accept a Scourge HQ in lieu of a winged Archon. I was just trying to make use of the HQs we actually have (with a winged Archon standing in for a Scourge HQ).

It would also give us an HQ that can be used in any detachment, regardless of Kabal/Coven/Cult.

I guess we've got Drazhar for Incubi, but what about a Mandrake HQ?

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PostSubject: Re: And here is our codex...   Mon 9 Apr - 9:26

I've just won 20-0 against high competitive ynneari player in local tournament (ETC format), and then lost 15-5 to another ynneari, cus of my last round mistake (14 mins to end the game and at that time result was 11-9 for me). This codex is just awesome, and the thing I like the most is that there seems like there is more than only one/two list(s) for competitive.
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PostSubject: Re: And here is our codex...   Mon 9 Apr - 9:54

Archons didn’t have wings as an option in any previous book as far as I recall. Bikes would be almost too nice of an option, all our lords would be the same. A lot fewer modeling opportunities with bike riders.
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PostSubject: Re: And here is our codex...   Mon 9 Apr - 9:59

@withershadow wrote:
Archons didn’t have wings as an option in any previous book as far as I recall. Bikes would be almost too nice of an option, all our lords would be the same. A lot fewer modeling opportunities with bike riders.

Well, the reason I suggest wings is partially to differentiate them a bit more from Succubi and partially for aesthetic reasons - Archons seem far closer to Scourges, and even used to wear Ghostplate armour themselves, whilst Succubi seem to have more in common with Reavers and Hellions.

Also, given how beautiful our Scourge models are, I think I can be forgiven for wanting at least one to be more than just a single-wound mook. Wink

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PostSubject: Re: And here is our codex...   Mon 9 Apr - 10:05

I'm tempted to just model one anyway using scourge wings, would be a cool model and could run him in a scourge outrider detachment.
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PostSubject: Re: And here is our codex...   Mon 9 Apr - 10:14

You can place 9 Wracks or 4 Grots (I think) in a Raider and have room for a Haemy...the only downside to this is that you lose the 2nd special weapon option for the Wracks...I just don't see that as a huge issue.

You can have 5-9 Incubi and have an Archon. You don't lose out on any weapon options. I don't see this as a problem.

You can have 5-9 Kabs with an Archon on a Raider and you lose the option of a heavy weapon...I do see this as a slight problem but it really isn't a game changer.

With the Court options you can choose either a Venom or a Raider and you lose nothing in terms of weapon options based on numbers in the squad. I don't see this as a problem.

You can have 5-9 Wyches riding in a Raider with a Succubus. I forget whether in the new codex (only read it briefly saturday) you can take Wych weapons 3 per 9 in the unit still??? If so you lose nothing by choosing 9. I don't see this as a problem.


The transports we have are decent transports. The Raider can be used to transport any variation you see fit. The Venom for me I am a little unsure of. Do I ever only want to transport only 5 models? In terms of CC units I would always want more than 5...Wyches and Incubi I would usually want more than 5. Maybe dropping 5 Kabs down on an objective is an option or just having Blasters loaded on Venoms is an option I suppose.
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PostSubject: Re: And here is our codex...   Mon 9 Apr - 10:22

@Dark Elf Dave wrote:
You can place 9 Wracks or 4 Grots (I think) in a Raider and have room for a Haemy...the only downside to this is that you lose the 2nd special weapon option for the Wracks...I just don't see that as a huge issue.

You can have 5-9 Incubi and have an Archon.  You don't lose out on any weapon options.  I don't see this as a problem.

You can have 5-9 Kabs with an Archon on a Raider and you lose the option of a heavy weapon...I do see this as a slight problem but it really isn't a game changer.

With the Court options you can choose either a Venom or a Raider and you lose nothing in terms of weapon options based on numbers in the squad.  I don't see this as a problem.

You can have 5-9 Wyches riding in a Raider with a Succubus.  I forget whether in the new codex (only read it briefly saturday) you can take Wych weapons 3 per 9 in the unit still???  If so you lose nothing by choosing 9.  I don't see this as a problem.


The transports we have are decent transports.  The Raider can be used to transport any variation you see fit.  The Venom for me I am a little unsure of.  Do I ever only want to transport only 5 models?  In terms of CC units I would always want more than 5...Wyches and Incubi I would usually want more than 5.  Maybe dropping 5 Kabs down on an objective is an option or just having Blasters loaded on Venoms is an option I suppose.

What about if you want a mobile HQ who isn't in a transport?

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PostSubject: Re: And here is our codex...   Mon 9 Apr - 10:23

@Dark Elf Dave wrote:
You can place 9 Wracks or 4 Grots (I think) in a Raider and have room for a Haemy...the only downside to this is that you lose the 2nd special weapon option for the Wracks

So this option has a downside.

Quote :
You can have 5-9 Incubi and have an Archon.  You don't lose out on any weapon options.

Or you could try to put them in a Venom and have erm...zero Incubi and an Archon. So this option has a downside.

Quote :
You can have 5-9 Kabs with an Archon on a Raider and you lose the option of a heavy weapon.

So this option has a downside

Quote :
With the Court options you can choose either a Venom or a Raider and you lose nothing in terms of weapon options based on numbers in the squad.  I don't see this as a problem.

Yay! An option with no downside!

Quote :
You can have 5-9 Wyches riding in a Raider with a Succubus.  I forget whether in the new codex (only read it briefly saturday) you can take Wych weapons 3 per 9 in the unit still???  If so you lose nothing by choosing 9.  I don't see this as a problem.

You can only have 1 special weapon in a unit of less than 10. So this option has a downside.

Still, 1 option without a downside is still fantastic, right? Right?

It would have been extremely easy to simply increase the transport capacity of the vehicles or play around with special/heavy weapon availability or unit sizes. GW did none of this so we're still in the ridiculous situation of our HQ's being less mobile than virtually any other army's. Granted, we have a much better codex this time around but it's still needlessly annoying and the fixes require no new models so there really isn't an excuse.

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PostSubject: Re: And here is our codex...   Mon 9 Apr - 10:27

@Dark Elf Dave wrote:

You can have 5-9 Wyches riding in a Raider with a Succubus.  I forget whether in the new codex (only read it briefly saturday) you can take Wych weapons 3 per 9 in the unit still???  If so you lose nothing by choosing 9.  I don't see this as a problem.

I don't have the codex yet, but in the index you could have 1 special weapon in 5 wyches, or 3 in 10. So by dropping to 9 wyches, you lose 2 special weapons. To me, that is a problem.
However, I am not sure if this changed in the codex.

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PostSubject: Re: And here is our codex...   Mon 9 Apr - 10:28

@Gelmir wrote:
@Dark Elf Dave wrote:

You can have 5-9 Wyches riding in a Raider with a Succubus.  I forget whether in the new codex (only read it briefly saturday) you can take Wych weapons 3 per 9 in the unit still???  If so you lose nothing by choosing 9.  I don't see this as a problem.

I don't have the codex yet, but in the index you could have 1 special weapon in 5 wyches, or  3 in 10. So by dropping to 9 wyches, you lose 2 special weapons. To me, that is a problem.
However, I am not sure if this changed in the codex.

It hasn't changed. You can only have more than 1 Wych weapon if you have 10+ models in the squad.

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PostSubject: Re: And here is our codex...   Mon 9 Apr - 10:28

Quote :
You can have 5-9 Kabs with an Archon on a Raider and you lose the option of a heavy weapon...I do see this as a slight problem but it really isn't a game changer.


While you bring up some good points, I'd also like to point out you're losing out on another special weapon at 10, in addition to the heavy. So you're not only losing a Dark Lance, but a blaster as well with your Archon tagging along. Although, I will concede that you could potentially take a blaster on the Archon to even it out.

With Incubi, they've always been better suited to Venoms for me. 9 Incubi plus a Huskblade Archon and a Disintegrator Cannon Raider totals out to be 300 points. That's a lot of eggs in a T5 basket

Edit: Just checked the codex, wyches are still 3 Weapons per 10, unfortunately
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PostSubject: Re: And here is our codex...   Mon 9 Apr - 10:31

I'm with Dark Elf Dave on this one.   Can we stop complaining about the troop capacity in our vehicles?

They have been the 5 and 10 since 5th edition (perhaps longer, but I didn't play them back then).    And as far back as 5th ed, they did not have access to a bike or a skyboard.  

If you can't get over that, you picked the wrong army to play.    If they had changed the stats of the transports, we'd have a legitimate beef.    Since they did not, we're all whining about something that has been the case for several editions of the game.

Yes it is inconvenient.   Absolutely.     Yes it would be better if we could fit our HQ in the transport with our troops (or if we at least had better statistics around special weapons).    But this is far from catastrophic

Even if you disagree with me.   Can we move onto a more interesting discussion   Very Happy

P.s. No offense intended to anyone in particular by this. It is more of a comment on the general ongoing discussion rather than any one person's point or opinion.
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PostSubject: Re: And here is our codex...   Mon 9 Apr - 10:38

I don't even have that much of a problem with having to go down to 9 man + 1 HQ, although it's sad.. I do however have a problem with not having an HQ option for my Outrider detachment. No HQ is going to keep up with our Fast Attack units. There's no way of having Reavers or Hellions profit from the Succubus aura, except for the sheer luck of them encountering each other on the battlefield.

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PostSubject: Re: And here is our codex...   Mon 9 Apr - 10:42

@Silverglade wrote:
I'm with Dark Elf Dave on this one.   Can we stop complaining about the troop capacity in our vehicles?

They have been the 5 and 10 since 5th edition (perhaps longer, but I didn't play them back then).

True, but we also had certain units (Wracks, Mandrakes, Trueborn, Incubi, probably others) with smaller minimum unit sizes so you could fit them in a Venom with a character.

Quote :
And as far back as 5th ed, they did not have access to a bike or a skyboard.

Baron Sathonyx says hello.

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PostSubject: Re: And here is our codex...   Mon 9 Apr - 11:17

@Silverglade wrote:
 And as far back as 5th ed, they did not have access to a bike or a skyboard.  

And as far back as 3rd they had access to both.


I guess I just don't see why having Wings or Jetbikes or such for our HQs would be such a massive issue.

It would mean that those of us who want to take them with Wings or Jetbikes will have that option, whilst those who want to stick rigidly to the fluff can simply elect to never use them and instead just put them in Venoms or Raiders.

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