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Lord Asvaldir
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PostSubject: Re: New best loadout for Scourges   Fri Apr 06 2018, 17:40

Yeah majority of tanks ain't +2, more likely that you'll have to deal with something with an invuls save or a special rule that reduces damage like the wave serpent and necron vehicles. In those cases hwb is pretty solid.

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Dizzie
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PostSubject: Re: New best loadout for Scourges   Fri Apr 06 2018, 19:59


Yeah now that i think about it, no i don't play against a lot of 2+, just not played much this edition yet, when i wrote this i thought it was 2+, don't know why lol, just write that off to my lack of experience this edition
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LordSplata
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PostSubject: Re: New best loadout for Scourges   Sat Apr 07 2018, 00:36

@Garion d6 damage averages 3.5 damage. If you factor that in you arrive at the same numbers I have. Once you factor that in the points per wound are not all that different between the blaster and the HWB against a rhino.

It is interesting how this is panning out, because while you are sacrificing anti elite infantry damage with the HWB you get extra range and the opportunity for more models on the table, which is harder to kill yet gives you more drops in the deployment phase (and more deepstrike drops which have to be balanced against a non deepstrike drop)
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PostSubject: Re: New best loadout for Scourges   Tue Apr 10 2018, 17:07

Since blaster scourges are quite expensive and a priority target for the opponent, I’ve been eyeballing Dark Lances. Yes, you pay 3 extra points or whatever, and suffer a minus to hit when moving, but that 18” extra range means you can land somewhere very safe (outside of any small arms range or even the speediest charge).
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shadowseercB
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PostSubject: Re: New best loadout for Scourges   Tue Apr 10 2018, 17:25

I would put haywire on Scourges because they are one of the few units that can take haywire and how effective haywire is it would be nice to have in a list. I put blasters and dark lances on other units, most can take some kind of dark light weaponry.

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Gelmir
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PostSubject: Re: New best loadout for Scourges   Tue Apr 10 2018, 17:30

This is also why I still intend to use (Index) Trueborn. I have 2 units of Scourges as anti-tank with Haywire. I like the Trueborns with lots of Dark Light on a Venom with 2 Splinter Cannons as sort of an all-round contingency plan.

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PostSubject: Re: New best loadout for Scourges   Tue Apr 10 2018, 17:51

Oh sure, I got the two haywire units ready to be built, I am just ruminating on the third one.
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PostSubject: Re: New best loadout for Scourges   Tue Apr 10 2018, 17:57

In that case I agree. Haywire are more specific, only good vs vehicles. Dark Light is also good agains big monsters, so I wouldn't use too much Haywire in one army either.
In that case I do like the idea of more range. Depending on the terrain, I would drop them on some tower or something, with a big part of the battlefield within 36" of my Dark Lances, and just stay there as long as there's stuff to shoot at.

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PostSubject: Re: New best loadout for Scourges   Tue Apr 10 2018, 19:26

I think it is also relevant to remember that the HWB is still 2 Str 4 Ap-1 shots. It actually outperforms the blaster somewhat against random GEQ equivalents, ironically enough, especially since it is so much cheaper. Not every turn leaves you with optimal targets. Blasters are fired at many targets in actual games.
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Rocmistro
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PostSubject: Re: New best loadout for Scourges   Tue Apr 10 2018, 21:16

So, brand new player here, and Scourges are one of my first units (bought 2 kits).

I'm used to playing Marines, so lots of MSU. Do you guys run Scourges MSU or bigger units for ablative wounds. I presume you use all 4 gun slots since they are so cheap, too, right?
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: New best loadout for Scourges   Tue Apr 10 2018, 21:20

@Rocmistro wrote:
So, brand new player here, and Scourges are one of my first units (bought 2 kits).

I'm used to playing Marines, so lots of MSU.  Do you guys run Scourges MSU or bigger units for ablative wounds.  I presume you use all 4 gun slots since they are so cheap, too, right?

MSU, they are not survivable enough like Marines to take extra bodies. They are DE vs of Devastators , but with better movement and DS.

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lament.config
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PostSubject: Re: New best loadout for Scourges   Tue Apr 10 2018, 21:44

I'm thinking blasters are they way to go. Dark lances or haywire isn't bad either I think.

I wish they had disintgrators in the kit because rolling out with squads if those would be absolutely brutal.
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Lord Asvaldir
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PostSubject: Re: New best loadout for Scourges   Tue Apr 10 2018, 23:29

That would be freakin sweet, unfortunately seems like infantry portable disintegrator cannon isn't a think. Guess we'll have to settle for shredders as our anti-infantry option.

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Voidhawk
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PostSubject: Re: New best loadout for Scourges   Tue Apr 10 2018, 23:50

@Rocmistro wrote:
So, brand new player here, and Scourges are one of my first units (bought 2 kits).

I'm used to playing Marines, so lots of MSU.  Do you guys run Scourges MSU or bigger units for ablative wounds.  I presume you use all 4 gun slots since they are so cheap, too, right?

Scourge are generally taken in two very different ways:

1) Treated as a devastator/special-weapon squad: minimum size, maximum guns, deep strike to take out a vulnerable/important tough unit. This is the most common use, and the one being discussed in this thread.

2) Used as mobile infantry: maximum sized squad, with special weapons only a secondary concern, used to drop onto objectives/cover to harass flanks with barrages of splinter fire from their shard carbines. They can be rather effective in this role, as a 4+ save (3+ in cover) and 3 shots at decent range can go further than you think.
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PostSubject: Re: New best loadout for Scourges   Tue Apr 10 2018, 23:54

@amishprn86 wrote:
@Rocmistro wrote:
So, brand new player here, and Scourges are one of my first units (bought 2 kits).

I'm used to playing Marines, so lots of MSU.  Do you guys run Scourges MSU or bigger units for ablative wounds.  I presume you use all 4 gun slots since they are so cheap, too, right?

MSU, they are not survivable enough like Marines to take extra bodies. They are DE vs of Devastators , but with better movement and DS.

To be fair, base Scourges are cheap enough now that it's probably not outrageous to take extra bodies as ablative wounds. Especially if you're going for shorter range heavy or special weapons so that the Shardcarbines can actually deal damage too.
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PostSubject: Re: New best loadout for Scourges   Wed Apr 11 2018, 00:45

@Gelmir wrote:
In that case I agree. Haywire are more specific, only good vs vehicles. Dark Light is also good agains big monsters, so I wouldn't use too much Haywire in one army either.
In that case I do like the idea of more range. Depending on the terrain, I would drop them on some tower or something, with a big part of the battlefield within 36" of my Dark Lances, and just stay there as long as there's stuff to shoot at.
I disagree that they are only good vs. vehicles. They function adequately well against infantry too, being roughly similar in performance to their base carbines. In fact, having a set S4 and an AP value is actually quite refreshing.

So haywire is a great option in the sense that you retain their anti-infantry capability, while also being capable of blaster-esque performance vs vehicles (and even surpassing it in certain cases if there is an invulnerable save or quantum shielding in place). I think haywire will become even more useful once the knight codex comes out and we start seeing more of the stompers on the Imperial side. It takes a lot of lances to burn one of those down, much less an army full of them.

But I’m already struggling making haywire for everyone. I am combining the heat lance and shredder to make another 3, but that still leaves me two short for the two units I have. Making another 4 sounds too tedious. Plus, dark light definitely has its place.

I do think blasters may indeed be better on the Trueborn, even with their relatively excessive price, as long as you pick the right obsession. A Venom is significantly more durable than Scourges, and any defensive stratagems used on it are doubly more effective than on Scourges.

Flayed Skull and Obsidian Rose seem the better choices. A page back people dismissed 2+ saves on vehicles, but my Guard frequently rocks 2+ on its tanks. The easiest way to get it is cover, so ignoring that is very useful. Alternatively, having a 24” effective range is also quite nice, although it really becomes 21” if you want to fully utilize the Venom. Poisoned Tongue may be potentially useful if you really emphasize their unique stratagem. You can deploy your venom(s) very aggressively, shaping enemy deployment (they will likely want to put things that can threaten the venom across from them, and things that are vulnerable to them at a distance), then HAHA! Also works if they seize on you.

I am gonna have to try the dark lance build. Our tables frequently have nice little high points in out of the way places where setting up what is effectively a devastator squad will be useful. Plus with guaranteed cover, if they do get targeted by the enemy, Hunt from the Shadows stratagem gives them a 2+ save.
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PostSubject: Re: New best loadout for Scourges   Wed Apr 11 2018, 03:06

Slightly off topic,

But if haywire is very good against quantum shielding and invulnerable save vehicles whilst retaining decent performance against infantry, would we be better off using haywire scourges for that role and not giving so much darklight to warrior units.

i.e. Warrior units could specialize in an anti infantry role with splinter cannons and shredders, whilst the scourges back them up with haywire.

Thoughts?

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PostSubject: Re: New best loadout for Scourges   Wed Apr 11 2018, 03:16

Personally I'm going for the opposite approach, as our AI has short range (12" for shredder and optimally for rifles, 18" for cannons), while DL's and haywire have longer range. I will be running shredder scourge as my main AI alpha strike, they drop down and install a unit of 10 GEQ each unit. instakilling ~50-60pts for 90pts is a pretty good bargain, and because you WILL drop them in to cover, they get a 3+ save which is surprisingly tough against GEQ weapons, and requires dedicated enemy firepower to take out, distracting it from your main force. I prefer to bury my expensive weapons in kabalite squads as that gives them more protection, or on ravagers as range is another form of protection. The only AT i will be using on scourge is haywire, as we have enough darkilght elsewhere, and i like the variation. haywire is also more points effective.

I find that AI squads are generally kore expendable while their weapons are cheaper, but you want to protect AT more. If i do run darkilght on scourge, it will be DL as even though you lose some alpha, you gain resilience from range.

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LordSplata
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PostSubject: Re: New best loadout for Scourges   Wed Apr 11 2018, 14:38

Wait.... Do Trueborn get obsessions? They wouldn't because it isn't listed in the index right?
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PostSubject: Re: New best loadout for Scourges   Wed Apr 11 2018, 14:48

@LordSplata wrote:
Wait....   Do Trueborn get obsessions?  They wouldn't because it isn't listed in the index right?

They're listed with the <Kabal> faction keyword, so they should.
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Lord Asvaldir
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PostSubject: Re: New best loadout for Scourges   Wed Apr 11 2018, 15:58

@Gazbal wrote:
Slightly off topic,

But if haywire is very good against quantum shielding and invulnerable save vehicles whilst retaining decent performance against infantry, would we be better off using haywire scourges for that role and not giving so much darklight to warrior units.

i.e. Warrior units could specialize in an anti infantry role with splinter cannons and shredders, whilst the scourges back them up with haywire.

Thoughts?


If you consistently face crons all the time, yeah that might not be a bad idea. I'd be careful to just drop dark light from your list though, you could have a game against crons where that haywire comes in real handy, and then you're next match might be against nids were haywire is useless and you're wishing you had your darklight weapons back. So for an all comers list, I wouldn't make haywire your main anti-tank weapon, it's a supplement to blasters/dark lances, not a replacement.

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shadowseercB
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PostSubject: Re: New best loadout for Scourges   Wed Apr 11 2018, 17:58

I played Crons last night.  My two units of Haywire scourge and one unit  of 3 haywire Talos were MVP's of the game.  They did a lot of damage to infantry and vehicles while the blasters or dark lances from other units would finish them off. It was very impressive.

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Lord Asvaldir
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PostSubject: Re: New best loadout for Scourges   Wed Apr 11 2018, 18:35

Nice, good to hear that haywire really pulled through.

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PostSubject: Re: New best loadout for Scourges   Wed Apr 11 2018, 18:43

@Lord Asvaldir wrote:
and then you're next match might be against nids were haywire is useless

Please, stop with the hyperbole.

Haywire blasters are assault d3 s4 ap-1. They are far from useless vs GEQ.

Are they optimal vs hordes? No absolutely not, but they still do some work.
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Lord Asvaldir
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PostSubject: Re: New best loadout for Scourges   Wed Apr 11 2018, 19:01

Nah I stick by my statement. You wouldn't want to use haywire vs infantry because shredders are so much better, so in so that game vs nids you'd ideally want to switch out the haywire blasters.

That being said I like haywire, I think it's very good against vehicles. Just not gonna get much mileage without vehicles to deal with.

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