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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: New best loadout for Scourges   Wed Apr 04 2018, 22:53

I have 1 unit each, HL, HWB, DL, Blaster, but.... no shredders lol

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PostSubject: Re: New best loadout for Scourges   Wed Apr 04 2018, 23:11

@Skari wrote:
I like the idea of the shredders, especially with the -1 ap.  The haywires might be back baby! 4 D3 shots move + shoot and the added range might be their ticket for success... also helps bypass great saves and invuls on certain vehicles.

oh yeah HWB's are back, math hammer they do ok, but the potential to do more damage on those 6's makes them scary, especially at how cheap they are
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PostSubject: Re: New best loadout for Scourges   Wed Apr 04 2018, 23:15

@Dizzie wrote:
@Skari wrote:
I like the idea of the shredders, especially with the -1 ap.  The haywires might be back baby! 4 D3 shots move + shoot and the added range might be their ticket for success... also helps bypass great saves and invuls on certain vehicles.

oh yeah HWB's are back, math hammer they do ok, but the potential to do more damage on those 6's makes them scary, especially at how cheap they are

And the fact they are less than 100pts

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PostSubject: Re: New best loadout for Scourges   Wed Apr 04 2018, 23:52

Ordered another box of scourges with my codex just so I could assemble some with HWB, really looking forward to using them especially against a friend who plays crons, as quantum shielding won't help at all. I'll probably try shredders as well at one point, but I'll need another box of scourges for that.

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PostSubject: Re: New best loadout for Scourges   Thu Apr 05 2018, 01:20

Shredders are great but are very short range
I'd rather use splinter cannons and shads for an anti infantry drop for longer range 16"
Go shredders if you have support for the closer work
Or heat Lance's for characters/elite assasination
Blasters are best for general AT
Haywire is good but more for finishing off wounded armour
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BlackCadian
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PostSubject: Re: New best loadout for Scourges   Thu Apr 05 2018, 07:11

Some great comments here, I love that there seem to be more options now than „heat lance or hwb“

Regarding the short shredder range, I suppose we could use the fire and fade stratagem if we fear for our Scourges safety, that could help.

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PostSubject: Re: New best loadout for Scourges   Thu Apr 05 2018, 09:09

Double checking, the HWB changes are only the D3 shots and points reduction right?
Because, (and this is without re-roll wounds because that changes everything) they are only better if a few niche scenarios of toughness or against vehicles with invuln saves. The idea of the mortal wounds is nice, but it really isn't going to prove very effective, especially as enemy armor has more wounds than it can really deal out.

Against wounded targets it is a "Sure thing" weapon as the varience is quite tight due to the lots of single wounds nature of the weapon.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: New best loadout for Scourges   Thu Apr 05 2018, 10:14

@LordSplata wrote:
Double checking,  the HWB changes are only the D3 shots and points reduction right?
Because, (and this is without re-roll wounds because that changes everything) they are only better if a few niche scenarios of toughness or against vehicles with invuln saves.    The idea of the mortal wounds is nice, but it really isn't going to prove very effective, especially as enemy armor has more wounds than it can really deal out.

Against wounded targets it is a "Sure thing" weapon as the varience is quite tight due to the lots of single wounds nature of the weapon.

I did the math somewhere? IDK where, but HWB was 1 wound less than Blaster WITHOUT any 6's to wound. Thats pretty good for the 25 ish odd points you save. and 6 wound will make up for the missing 1 damage normally.

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Last edited by amishprn86 on Thu Apr 05 2018, 10:23; edited 1 time in total
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LordSplata
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PostSubject: Re: New best loadout for Scourges   Thu Apr 05 2018, 10:23

I rushed that last msg and wasn't clear.
The haywire does slightly better damage at t8+.

If the vehicle has an invulnerable save the haywire is better and In those cases the 6 really does make up the extra damage.

At below 7 AND without a invuln the blaster does a better job

Edit: the cheapness helps get their ppw down, but it exaserbates the 5th member of the squad tax
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PostSubject: Re: New best loadout for Scourges   Thu Apr 05 2018, 11:37

@LordSplata wrote:
I rushed that last msg and wasn't clear.
The haywire does slightly better damage at t8+.

If the vehicle has an invulnerable save the haywire is better and In those cases the 6 really does make up the extra damage.

At below 7 AND without a invuln the blaster does a better job

Edit: the cheapness helps get their ppw down, but it exaserbates the 5th member of the squad tax

Is that with the 6 deals more wounds and Points cost per wound?

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PostSubject: Re: New best loadout for Scourges   Thu Apr 05 2018, 11:58

@amishprn86 wrote:
@LordSplata wrote:
Double checking,  the HWB changes are only the D3 shots and points reduction right?
Because, (and this is without re-roll wounds because that changes everything) they are only better if a few niche scenarios of toughness or against vehicles with invuln saves.    The idea of the mortal wounds is nice, but it really isn't going to prove very effective, especially as enemy armor has more wounds than it can really deal out.

Against wounded targets it is a "Sure thing" weapon as the varience is quite tight due to the lots of single wounds nature of the weapon.

I did the math somewhere? IDK where, but HWB was 1 wound less than Blaster WITHOUT any 6's to wound. Thats pretty good for the 25 ish odd points you save. and 6 wound will make up for the missing 1 damage normally.

Do you think you can dig up that math? I have a hard time finding anything in the explosion of posts since the codex previews. Razz

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PostSubject: Re: New best loadout for Scourges   Thu Apr 05 2018, 12:27

I can do really quick math right now, im at work so double check it if someone can, i'm doing napkin math so to say and rounding a bit, im adding the 6 to wound also (just 1 since 4d3 average is 8 hits, meaning 1 1/3 6's rolling) and the 6 will deal 2D instead of 1 (can do 3D sure, but can also deal 1 damage, i marked it as 2D)

HWB Vs Rhino = 5.25 wounds
Blast vs Rhino = 6.25 wounds

So like i said 1 less wound (I guess i did have the 6 in there on old math).

HWB Scourges are 92pts
Blaster Scourges are 128pts

IDK how they are doing points per wounds, i think they are doing it base 100? but if Scourges are only doing +1 wound for +36pts, its clear that 1 wound isnt worth 36pts when 5 for 92pts is 1/2 that (lol literally 18.4pts).

Tho Blasters can hurt other things like MC's etc..

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PostSubject: Re: New best loadout for Scourges   Thu Apr 05 2018, 13:38

I was working with a HWB as 10 pts, rather than 8. So that was one issue there, and definitely makes them better.
But I can only get a squad of HWBs to 4.56 wounds vs a rhino.
Each scourge doing 1.11 damage.
Which is .222 (2x2/3x1/3x1/2) damage from the normal profile and 0.889 (2x2/3x(1/3+2x1/6))damage from the mortal wounds
I can't see anything wrong with my numbers.
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PostSubject: Re: New best loadout for Scourges   Thu Apr 05 2018, 13:44

@LordSplata wrote:
I was working with a HWB as 10 pts, rather than 8. So that was one issue there, and definitely makes them better.
But I can only get a squad of HWBs to 4.56 wounds vs a rhino.
Each scourge doing 1.11 damage.
Which is .222 (2x2/3x1/3x1/2) damage from the normal profile and 0.889 (2x2/3x(1/3+2x1/6))damage from the mortal wounds
I can't see anything wrong with my numbers.

EDIT: I think i did 1 thing wrong, its not a full chance to get 1 wound of a 6, its 0.83 chance.

IDK how much that would effect it tho. Regardless, its still 4.22 wounds no matter what and 0.83% chance to do additional MW's

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PostSubject: Re: New best loadout for Scourges   Thu Apr 05 2018, 14:11

I'm not sure I understand the .83 from a six thing. You get 1 mortal wound from a wound roll of 4 or 5 and then on a 6 you get an average of 2 woundswhich adds to .66 (1/6+1/6+2*1/6)
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PostSubject: Re: New best loadout for Scourges   Thu Apr 05 2018, 14:15

@LordSplata wrote:
I'm not sure I understand the .83 from a six thing. You get 1 mortal wound from a wound roll of 4 or 5 and then on a 6 you get an average of 2 woundswhich adds to .66 (1/6+1/6+2*1/6)

Yes but 8 shots = 5 hits, 1/6 chance of 5 dice to roll a 6.

2.22 normal wounds 2 MW's but 1 is a 6 most the time for D3 instead of 1, so minimum 4.22, then 5.22, max 6.22

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PostSubject: Re: New best loadout for Scourges   Thu Apr 05 2018, 15:26

Ok, so our numbers don't match in a couple of places
4 spurge w HWB:
Normal wounds I have 0.88 (8 shots x 2/3 hit x1/3wound x 1/2 save)
4and 5 mortal wounds 1.77 (8 shots x 2/3 hit x 1/3 4or5)
6+ mortal wounds 1.77 (8 shots x 2/3 hit x 1/6 rolling-a-six x 2 damage-on-average)

I think the normal wounds is the biggest discrepancy between our results
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PostSubject: Re: New best loadout for Scourges   Thu Apr 05 2018, 15:30

Yeah, i think so too, i might have done someting worng, let me get a calculator out (Im kinda working atm)



4d3 = 8 shots, 5 hits (5.334) 5 to wound = 1.667 wounds that are normal, then 6+ saves


Edit:
No matter how i do it im still more than you on the base.

Im getting always at least no matter what 1.5 wounds for normal. I did however did the 1st math wrong b.c i completely for got about its -3ap and not -4ap so they still get a save.

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PostSubject: Re: New best loadout for Scourges   Thu Apr 05 2018, 16:19

I run the math too:

8 shoots avg, 3+ TH = 5.333 hits

normal wounds : 4+ TW = 1.77777 wounds to be saved -> 0.5925 damage after saves

mortal wounds (4 <= TW <= 5) x 1D each : 1.77777 damage
mortal wounds (6+ TW) x D3D each (assuming 2D) : 1.77777 damage

total damage : 4,1481

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PostSubject: Re: New best loadout for Scourges   Thu Apr 05 2018, 16:39

You got something different too LOL

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PostSubject: Re: New best loadout for Scourges   Thu Apr 05 2018, 17:11

I so loved the faces of my opponents, when they see my scourges and ask me, how much lances are there???

Normally, the next sentence is: That must go...

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PostSubject: Re: New best loadout for Scourges   Thu Apr 05 2018, 17:29

@amishprn86 wrote:
You got something different too LOL

I've found out what's wrong in my results: I forgot to factor in the HWBL AP in the normal wounds  Mad

Here are the correct values:

8 shoots avg, 3+ TH = 5.333 hits
normal wounds : 4+ TW = 1.77777 wounds to be saved -> 0.8888 damage after saves
mortal wounds (4 <= TW <= 5) x 1D each : 1.77777 damage
mortal wounds (6+ TW) x D3D each (assuming 2D) : 1.77777 damage

total damage : 4,4444

Edit:

I've run the Blaster too:

hits: 4 shoots, 3+ TH = 2.666 hits
wounds: 3+ TW = 1.7777 wounds with now saves allowed.
total damage = 1.7777 x D6 (average 3) = 1.7777 x 3 = 5.3333
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Garion
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PostSubject: Re: New best loadout for Scourges   Thu Apr 05 2018, 18:14


Point wise, one point of damage of the HWBL squad cost us 32 pt / 4.444 dmg = 7,2 pt/dmg

One point of damage from the Blaster squad cost us 68 pt / 5.333 dmg = 12.75 pt/dmg

(I'm only factoring in the point cost of the weapons becasue we have to buy the 5 Scourges either way)

The 128pt of the Blaster squad would buy an ipothetical 5-HWBL squad (with 12 pt to spare)

5 HWBL will put out 5.555 damage against that same Rhino
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PostSubject: Re: New best loadout for Scourges   Fri Apr 06 2018, 14:53

Think you guys are also neglecting that most tanks will still get a 6+ against the blaster.
which if you factor that in makes the HWB math hammering all the more sweeter.
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PostSubject: Re: New best loadout for Scourges   Fri Apr 06 2018, 17:23

@Dizzie wrote:
Think you guys are also neglecting that most tanks will still get a 6+ against the blaster.
which if you factor that in makes the HWB math hammering all the more sweeter.

Play against a lot of 2+ save tanks do you? Very Happy
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