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 Venom or Raider?

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|Meavar
Hekatrix
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PostSubject: Re: Venom or Raider?   Wed Apr 04 2018, 12:51

PGL if they keep the pricing are nearly always worth it, they are just so cheap that if you have around 4 of them and there is 1 extra marine that died because of the morale thing they all made their points back, if you actually kill something it is just a bonus.

Agonizers depends a bit, I often find myself entering cc with kabalites.
Vehicle are for me often in combat, (either because I needed to absorp overwatch, stop it from shooting or got assaulted) which means I disembark the kabalites, then disengage (thus kabalites can shoot) and usually it then makes more sense to charge than to wait for the enemy to charge.
An agonizer means around 50% chance of another wound having a 5 man squads in melee is another dead marine. Just make sure you go agianst severely wounded units or true ranged units.
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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: Venom or Raider?   Wed Apr 04 2018, 14:22

@amishprn86 wrote:

A) you dont need to go that far, 5 Venoms will work, you need to build your list knowing a lot of your poison comes from Venoms and not kabals

1) yes i took 2 Splinter cannons (all mine are already model that way)

2) Im ok with it, tho IDK the damage ratio vs venoms in a points sense, to me it seems to fill the AI role but has Anti-heavy infantry options now for a little more points (this is my set up that i like).

3) I always take Agonisers and PGL if i play my main TAC list, will have 3 of them and 3 Blast Pistols most likely. Thats b.c i like to melee with kabals (yes i melee with my Kabals) on trn 3 the game is finishing up and you get way more damage if you can get into melee.

Against Marines even 5mans, they cant kill kabals in 1 round, not even in 2 rounds, and we do more damage only b.c we have an AP weapon, against tau, same thing, against Orks and Nids?... not so much.

I'll normally have 2 list, 1 TAC fun list, that has a bit of everything, then my Hyper Comp list that is for winning and only winning.

A) That's good to hear.

2) That's good. I can't remember the last time I used gunboats. Out of interest, do you think that 5-man squads in Raiders (with a Blaster) can also be worth it? Or is that wasting too much transport space?

3) Interesting. I'll try and find points for them then.

Thanks for all your help.

@|Meavar wrote:
PGL if they keep the pricing are nearly always worth it, they are just so cheap that if you have around 4 of them and there is 1 extra marine that died because of the morale thing they all made their points back, if you actually kill something it is just a bonus.

Agonizers depends a bit, I often find myself entering cc with kabalites.
Vehicle are for me often in combat, (either because I needed to absorp overwatch, stop it from shooting or got assaulted) which means I disembark the kabalites, then disengage (thus kabalites can shoot) and usually it then makes more sense to charge than to wait for the enemy to charge.
An agonizer means around 50% chance of another wound having a 5 man squads in melee is another dead marine. Just make sure you go agianst severely wounded units or true ranged units.

That makes sense. Thanks.
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Alezya
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PostSubject: Re: Venom or Raider?   Wed Apr 04 2018, 15:06

@amishprn86 wrote:

3) I always take Agonisers and PGL if i play my main TAC list, will have 3 of them and 3 Blast Pistols most likely. Thats b.c i like to melee with kabals (yes i melee with my Kabals) on trn 3 the game is finishing up and you get way more damage if you can get into melee.

Against Marines even 5mans, they cant kill kabals in 1 round, not even in 2 rounds, and we do more damage only b.c we have an AP weapon, against tau, same thing, against Orks and Nids?... not so much.

Interesting... I never play (nore played) agonizer on my Kabalites...
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withershadow
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PostSubject: Re: Venom or Raider?   Thu Apr 05 2018, 00:35

@|Meavar wrote:
PGL if they keep the pricing are nearly always worth it, they are just so cheap that if you have around 4 of them and there is 1 extra marine that died because of the morale thing they all made their points back, if you actually kill something it is just a bonus.

Agonizers depends a bit, I often find myself entering cc with kabalites.
Vehicle are for me often in combat, (either because I needed to absorp overwatch, stop it from shooting or got assaulted) which means I disembark the kabalites, then disengage (thus kabalites can shoot) and usually it then makes more sense to charge than to wait for the enemy to charge.
An agonizer means around 50% chance of another wound having a 5 man squads in melee is another dead marine. Just make sure you go agianst severely wounded units or true ranged units.

This I like, will definitely have to give these tactics a try with Poisoned Tongue. Re-rollable charges and +1 to hit from PfP, and reroll on all venom weapons should indeed make Kabalite units a terror once the game has gone on to later rounds.

Although overwatch could very swiftly end our plans!
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Venom or Raider?   Thu Apr 05 2018, 13:16

I didnt think about Poisoned Tongue being a help for them, tho I think i still like my Flawed SKulls and Black Heart, i will give it a try tho.

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PostSubject: Re: Venom or Raider?   Thu Apr 05 2018, 19:16

Also, just as a note - an obsidian rose venom has 21" rapid fire range. Small boost, but fairly significant.

Venoms i use more for anti-infantry, ranged harrassment, (and now) ferrying loose characters around

Raiders i use primarily as grot trains, and if they survive the initial drop off, they hang back and take potshots at armour
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HERO
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PostSubject: Re: Venom or Raider?   Thu Apr 05 2018, 19:26

@amishprn86 wrote:
I didnt think about Poisoned Tongue being a help for them, tho I think i still like my Flawed SKulls and Black Heart, i will give it a try tho.

Black Heart has been godlike for me.  I've said probably 16 wounds over the course of 3 turns in last night's game.

I also started with 5 CP due to buying Relics and Warlord traits, and ended with 4 after using Counterspell and Fire and Fade thanks to Cunning.

Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Venom or Raider?   Thu Apr 05 2018, 19:53

Quit using loaded dice fishing for those 6s. Very Happy

But yeah, it's a 17% increase in the number of wounds you're able to absorb.

Plus best relic, stratagem, and warlord trait, there is little reason not to include a detachment of Black Heart in every raiding party. Vect always has his representatives in place to collect his share of the bounty, after all.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Venom or Raider?   Thu Apr 05 2018, 20:34

@HERO wrote:
@amishprn86 wrote:
I didnt think about Poisoned Tongue being a help for them, tho I think i still like my Flawed SKulls and Black Heart, i will give it a try tho.

Black Heart has been godlike for me.  I've said probably 16 wounds over the course of 3 turns in last night's game.

I also started with 5 CP due to buying Relics and Warlord traits, and ended with 4 after using Counterspell and Fire and Fade thanks to Cunning.

Very Happy

Nice! Yeah i have a game tonight, hoping to take lots of pics and play 2 games

@withershadow wrote:
Quit using loaded dice fishing for those 6s. Very Happy

But yeah, it's a 17% increase in the number of wounds you're able to absorb.

Plus best relic, stratagem, and warlord trait, there is little reason not to include a detachment of Black Heart in every raiding party.  Vect always has his representatives in place to collect his share of the bounty, after all.

17% chance if you use 6 and your opponent uses 6, then you get 2 back to use 2 more, then you might be able to get another one back whahahaha

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PostSubject: Re: Venom or Raider?   Thu Apr 05 2018, 22:46

Oh, I've got another question - do you think our transports are worth including for their own sake, or are they only cost-effective for transporting units you already planned on including? If you see what I mean.

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Britishgrotesque
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PostSubject: Re: Venom or Raider?   Thu Apr 05 2018, 22:53

Well for the price of 2 raiders you can run a ravager. Venoms may be worth it though, but why not use it to transport kabs, which we need for non poison firepower?
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PostSubject: Re: Venom or Raider?   Thu Apr 05 2018, 23:58

@Britishgrotesque wrote:
Well for the price of 2 raiders you can run a ravager. Venoms may be worth it though, but why not use it to transport kabs, which we need for non poison firepower?

Well, there are a few considerations:

- I could take a Venom so that my Archon at least has the option of one (in which case putting Kabalites in it would rather defeat the purpose).

- I could have 10 Kabalites ride in a single Raider, or I could have 5 ride in 2 separate Raiders (or Venoms). Is it better to have fewer transports with more men inside, or to go full MSU and maximise transports?

Also, part of the issue is that I'm still unsure how many Kabalites I should be taking. Is it worth spamming them beyond the minimum troop requirements? Or should I just take the minimum number and then look to spend points elsewhere?

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HERO
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PostSubject: Re: Venom or Raider?   Fri Apr 06 2018, 01:36

@Soulless Samurai wrote:
@Britishgrotesque wrote:
Well for the price of 2 raiders you can run a ravager. Venoms may be worth it though, but why not use it to transport kabs, which we need for non poison firepower?

Well, there are a few considerations:

- I could take a Venom so that my Archon at least has the option of one (in which case putting Kabalites in it would rather defeat the purpose).

- I could have 10 Kabalites ride in a single Raider, or I could have 5 ride in 2 separate Raiders (or Venoms). Is it better to have fewer transports with more men inside, or to go full MSU and maximise transports?

Also, part of the issue is that I'm still unsure how many Kabalites I should be taking. Is it worth spamming them beyond the minimum troop requirements? Or should I just take the minimum number and then look to spend points elsewhere?

I'm writing an article on list build tonight that will cover most of these points.

In short, to answer your questions lightly:
> A single empty Venom for a single Archon is a poor investment.
> You should maximize your Raiders when you can unless you're using it as a command Raider (5-man Raider for room for Archons..etc). That's because with a full 10-man squad of Kabs, you unlock a Dark Lance.
> Due to the points closure of Raider to Venom, a 5-man squad of Warriors w/ Blaster in a Venom runs 112 vs. a Raider that runs 132. For 20 points, you get a Dark Lance vs. Splinter Cannons. I will almost always the Raider but thats my personal play (plus, I need more lances).
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PostSubject: Re: Venom or Raider?   Fri Apr 06 2018, 01:37

@amishprn86 wrote:
@HERO wrote:
@amishprn86 wrote:
I didnt think about Poisoned Tongue being a help for them, tho I think i still like my Flawed SKulls and Black Heart, i will give it a try tho.

Black Heart has been godlike for me.  I've said probably 16 wounds over the course of 3 turns in last night's game.

I also started with 5 CP due to buying Relics and Warlord traits, and ended with 4 after using Counterspell and Fire and Fade thanks to Cunning.

Very Happy

Nice! Yeah i have a game tonight, hoping to take lots of pics and play 2 games

@withershadow wrote:
Quit using loaded dice fishing for those 6s. Very Happy

But yeah, it's a 17% increase in the number of wounds you're able to absorb.

Plus best relic, stratagem, and warlord trait, there is little reason not to include a detachment of Black Heart in every raiding party.  Vect always has his representatives in place to collect his share of the bounty, after all.

17% chance if you use 6 and your opponent uses 6, then you get 2 back to use 2 more, then you might be able to get another one back whahahaha

Nice dude, let me know how your games go. I saw some beardy ass shh you were cooking up. I've been playing a lot, on my 4th game now. A lot of great feedback for my army (in the sense that it rips).
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Venom or Raider?   Fri Apr 06 2018, 07:07

Well i just got back and i must say. i didnt get to play anything serious we had 4 new people in the club and was just doing teaching/learning games (which is good).

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