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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Venom or Raider?   Tue Apr 03 2018, 19:45

With the changes in points and such, how do you think the Raider and Venom are stacking up against one another?

Regarding the Venom, I saw a lot of people say that the extra Splinter Cannon wasn't worth it (with the Index version). Do you think that's still the case?
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Lord Asvaldir
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PostSubject: Re: Venom or Raider?   Tue Apr 03 2018, 20:07

Hard to say I think just yet, both seem fairly solid. Seems like the disintegrator raider is definetly going to become a popular choice, just 80pts and an excellent way to get in more dissie cannons into the list. Course many of us only have dark lance raiders, which is fine I think dark lance is still solid. I want to like splinter racks, but I think they are a bit expensive, probably better to keep raiders cheaper. I'll at least give them a shot.

Issue I think with splinter cannons on venoms is it's just not worth 10pts to go up 2 shots at a slightly longer range, the real tipping point is the twin linked splinter rifle is free, leaving the venom at a nice and cheap 65pts. That 10pts difference really stacks up if you're taking say 4-5 venoms, take all the extra splinter cannons off and you're looking at almost a 5-6th venom.

I think in the end the choice comes down to if you're taking more 5 man squads or 10 mans. I like taking both, so I will likely continue mixing raiders and venoms, especially because the variety looks nice.

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Archon_91
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PostSubject: Re: Venom or Raider?   Tue Apr 03 2018, 20:11

Well as we don't really know what the splinter cannon has become, if it's changed to rapid 6 then I would say yes. If it's rapid 3 still than I would is it mostly for smaller elite units of Incubi and for the HQ's.
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Lord Asvaldir
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PostSubject: Re: Venom or Raider?   Tue Apr 03 2018, 20:21

Rapid 6, no way that's happening that would be a little crazy, 24 shots on a venom at 18". Plus I haven't heard any rumors anywhere of its profile changing, while we have heard stuff like the haywire blaster changing to d3 shots and shredders tod6 and -1 ap, so I doubt there's any change for the SC.

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Causalis
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PostSubject: Re: Venom or Raider?   Tue Apr 03 2018, 21:23

I use the Raider and Venom quite differently. Raiders transport my melee units (Wyches, Wracks etc.) so that they may get relatively unharmed into melee. The Venoms are my small gunships. I load them up with Warriors w/ a Blaster per Squad and maybe an PGL on the Sybarite. They fly around the board to apply pressure and hunt infantry.

The problem with taking 10 Warriors in a Raider for me is that I then have to either footslog my melee units, which means they'll just get shot off the board or I have to deepstrike them using precious CP.
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PostSubject: Re: Venom or Raider?   Tue Apr 03 2018, 21:37

In the Index, Venom won with no challenge, for me.

Right now.....the Raider can be usefull actually, if you wanna take 10 Kabals, or just you HQ with somebody.

But that -1 to hit is enormous....it will be pretty hard to left the Venom at home.
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Lord Asvaldir
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PostSubject: Re: Venom or Raider?   Tue Apr 03 2018, 22:23

@Causalis wrote:
I use the Raider and Venom quite differently. Raiders transport my melee units (Wyches, Wracks etc.) so that they may get relatively unharmed into melee. The Venoms are my small gunships. I load them up with Warriors w/ a Blaster per Squad and maybe an PGL on the Sybarite. They fly around the board to apply pressure and hunt infantry.

The problem with taking 10 Warriors in a Raider for me is that I then have to either footslog my melee units, which means they'll just get shot off the board or I have to deepstrike them using precious CP.

Raiders are definetly solid for assault units since you probably don't want to run a bunch of small 5 man assault units, but I don't think that means 10 man warrior units are bad. Depending on your list you're going to want to have a few 10 man units in raiders, or if you're say focusing more on kabal you'll have room for warriors in raiders. In my initial list for Saturday I'm going for a balance, I'll have 10 warriors and 10 wyches in raiders, while wracks will be footslogging with a haemonculus. Since wracks aren't a big threat and actually technically tougher than a raider with prophets of flesh trait, I feel like they will do alright footslogging. We'll see how that goes though.

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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: Venom or Raider?   Tue Apr 03 2018, 22:26

The whole debate basically boils down to : do you prefer volume of poison, or volume of DL.

1 Raider squad is 4 Darklight shots, and 14 poison shots.

2 Venom squads (even if they are not the same price) are 2 Darklight shots, and 36 poison shots.

I value my darklight more than my poison, so i prefer raiders. But i understand the appeal in the volume of poison venoms offer.

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Lord Asvaldir
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PostSubject: Re: Venom or Raider?   Tue Apr 03 2018, 23:48

Well with disintegrator cannons being so cheap now, those should factor into that decision as well, but I think I'd rather focus my disintegrator cannons on ravagers and leave dark lances on my raiders.

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Britishgrotesque
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PostSubject: Re: Venom or Raider?   Tue Apr 03 2018, 23:53

I think running a mix of venom and raider is beneficial right now.

Venoms work better with a single blaster/shredder(Yes they arent awful now, although blaster is still better)

Raiders with splinter racks + cannons or 2 blasters and a lance both work well. Although it's harder to get the blaster into range than it is with venoms.
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PostSubject: Re: Venom or Raider?   Tue Apr 03 2018, 23:55

I mean if you're running flayed skull raiders have 1 higher movement than base venoms, so not with that obsessions which is what I will very likely be using.

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PostSubject: Re: Venom or Raider?   Wed Apr 04 2018, 03:45

I honestly dont like Venoms at all, but... i'll play with 2 of them only b.c i like the looks and they fit my theme, i need at these 2 to show my theme lol.

I'm seriouslly thinking of buying 2 more starweavers, 2 troupes and converting them into my DE theme just to play with the Wych style i like, hard hitting and weapons that deal real damage.

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PostSubject: Re: Venom or Raider?   Wed Apr 04 2018, 04:08

What do you have against venoms?

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PostSubject: Re: Venom or Raider?   Wed Apr 04 2018, 04:26

@Lord Asvaldir wrote:
What do you have against venoms?

Poison vs S6
5++ vs 4++
5 cap vs 6 cap
0ap vs chance at ap


I have played venoms many... many... times and i have play starweavers just as much if not more, and the starweavers always does loads more work.

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PostSubject: Re: Venom or Raider?   Wed Apr 04 2018, 06:34

Fair enough, not having an ap value is a bit of a bummer considering how expensive splinter cannons are. 10pts isn't terrible, but it's probably still a bit much, and considering splinter cannons are the only weapon option for venoms their effectiveness definetly effects how good the venom is. That being said I do really like having venoms just as small transports, so I will probably continue mixing raiders and venoms in my list, probably with an equal amount of both.

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PostSubject: Re: Venom or Raider?   Wed Apr 04 2018, 08:07

Well, in the index, Venoms were overpriced and I can get why the Starweaver was obviously better.

But now with the drop points and the Flayed Skull Obsession, you have a cheap way to bring out 12 no-cover poisoned shots (damn Devastators in cover!), rerolling 1 (without any Archon) moving 19". I find Venom now really huge!


But the real thing that makes them shine for me is that -1 to hit. It is one of the best rules of the game and every one that can bring it, will do it (es. Alaiotc, Tigurius, etc..)
We can field a large part of the army with this, mixing Venoms and flyers.
Actually I like the Raiders if I need some antitank. 10 Kabals w/2 blasters+DL into Raider w/DL are the new trueborns. The cost is similar, you only get one -1 to hit into one DL, but you get more body (wounds) and still shoot a better poison than the Venom one before (14 shots at 12" with splinter racks).

I like them both, just seeing the Raider as more specialyzed, were the Venom it's just more solid (again, -1 to hit is huge, expecially against special rules like Plasma or Tesla guns).
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PostSubject: Re: Venom or Raider?   Wed Apr 04 2018, 08:26

I like venoms and double SCs every time. It felt like an expensive upgrade in the index, it's more palatable in the codex. Its not just the extra shots, it's getting those extra shots at 18", which just happens to be blaster range. 12" RF range leaves the venom far too open to charges imo.

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PostSubject: Re: Venom or Raider?   Wed Apr 04 2018, 09:47

@amishprn86 wrote:
@Lord Asvaldir wrote:
What do you have against venoms?

Poison vs S6

Wait, are Disintegrators S6 now? I think I missed that.
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PostSubject: Re: Venom or Raider?   Wed Apr 04 2018, 09:49

@Soulless Samurai wrote:
@amishprn86 wrote:
@Lord Asvaldir wrote:
What do you have against venoms?

Poison vs S6

Wait, are Disintegrators S6 now? I think I missed that.

No, i was compare to Starweavers, they get shuriken cannons

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PostSubject: Re: Venom or Raider?   Wed Apr 04 2018, 09:50

@amishprn86 wrote:
@Soulless Samurai wrote:
@amishprn86 wrote:
@Lord Asvaldir wrote:
What do you have against venoms?

Poison vs S6

Wait, are Disintegrators S6 now? I think I missed that.

No, i was compare to Starweavers, they get shuriken cannons

Ah, sorry. I get you now.
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PostSubject: Re: Venom or Raider?   Wed Apr 04 2018, 10:03

Yes, venoms are cheaper now, but always wounding on 4's and a large amount bouncing off army is just a bad feeling.  I play with 8 Harlequins vehicles and i must say, the 4++ vs 5++ and the Str with some AP really helps for than you would think.

Its why i'm only playing with 2 Venoms.

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PostSubject: Re: Venom or Raider?   Wed Apr 04 2018, 11:18

Thanks for replying, everyone.

Makes me wish I didn't own 5 Venoms and only 3 Raiders. Razz

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PostSubject: Re: Venom or Raider?   Wed Apr 04 2018, 11:26

@Soulless Samurai wrote:
Thanks for replying, everyone.

Makes me wish I didn't own 5 Venoms and only 3 Raiders. Razz

Well... with that said there is a good argument for MSU venoms with 5 guys and a blaster.

122pts is cheap for it, where a starweaver is 99pts alone.  5 of those is just 610pts, you could spam 10 of them and thats barely over 1/2 your army.  

Thats a lot of fire power, thats (10 shots or 16) so thats 100-160 poison shots and 10 blasters.

To add, b.c they are Cheap, you dont care if they die as much as a Raider with 10 guys and 2 blasters, you can now spend 500-600pts of Ravagers/RWJF and then a few points for Archons on foot to buff the Venoms shooting and Ravagers DC's.

You could do
9 Venoms, 50 kabals, 10 blaster 1220pts
5 Ravagers x3 DC 625pts
3 Archons


90-140 poison re-rolls on 60-120
45 Discannon shots, re-rolls
10 Blasters

is it boring? IDK i havent played it, kinda looks fun to me, but doesnt have anything unique about it. But it has 0 Threats, everything is so common your opponent wont know what to do lol.



I think i just talked myself into trying this list out.... well sh Exclamation t

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PostSubject: Re: Venom or Raider?   Wed Apr 04 2018, 12:22

It's a nice idea, but I fear 5 Ravagers and 9 Venoms is rather more than I own, and I can't afford to invest in that many at present. Sad

I take your point, though.

I've got a few more questions if you've got time:

1) Am I right in thinking that you're including the extra Splinter Cannons on those Venoms?

2) What are your thoughts on 10-man Kabalite squads in Raiders with Disintegrators Splinter Racks? As opposed to, say, just taking 5-man squads to get more Raiders in a list (and leave space for HQs, if needed).

3) Do you think Agonisers and/or PGLs are worthwhile buys on Kabalites?

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PostSubject: Re: Venom or Raider?   Wed Apr 04 2018, 12:38

@Soulless Samurai wrote:
It's a nice idea, but I fear 5 Ravagers and 9 Venoms is rather more than I own, and I can't afford to invest in that many at present.  Sad

I take your point, though.

I've got a few more questions if you've got time:

1) Am I right in thinking that you're including the extra Splinter Cannons on those Venoms?

2) What are your thoughts on 10-man Kabalite squads in Raiders with Disintegrators Splinter Racks? As opposed to, say, just taking 5-man squads to get more Raiders in a list (and leave space for HQs, if needed).

3) Do you think Agonisers and/or PGLs are worthwhile buys on Kabalites?

A) you dont need to go that far, 5 Venoms will work, you need to build your list knowing a lot of your poison comes from Venoms and not kabals

1) yes i took 2 Splinter cannons (all mine are already model that way)

2) Im ok with it, tho IDK the damage ratio vs venoms in a points sense, to me it seems to fill the AI role but has Anti-heavy infantry options now for a little more points (this is my set up that i like).

3) I always take Agonisers and PGL if i play my main TAC list, will have 3 of them and 3 Blast Pistols most likely. Thats b.c i like to melee with kabals (yes i melee with my Kabals) on trn 3 the game is finishing up and you get way more damage if you can get into melee.

Against Marines even 5mans, they cant kill kabals in 1 round, not even in 2 rounds, and we do more damage only b.c we have an AP weapon, against tau, same thing, against Orks and Nids?... not so much.

I'll normally have 2 list, 1 TAC fun list, that has a bit of everything, then my Hyper Comp list that is for winning and only winning.

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