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 3 Patrols might not be best

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Quauchtemoc
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PostSubject: Re: 3 Patrols might not be best   Tue Apr 03 2018, 23:36

@Trueborn44 wrote:
@teenageangst Honestly I've never found myself absolutely clamoring for a single unit. I'm not saying it doesn't come up but generally I'll want two of whatever it is because we die quick.

You're right to some degree on HQ bloat, but like I said it's not optimised because I threw it together in 10 minutes. I think you could probably drop atleast 1 Haeme and most of the wracks and make the POF battalion into a vanguard or the elite option and still have 9CP on average. I don't even really feel that it's that bloated though, because aside from the Archons, the other HQ feel very competitively priced for what they do.

Even the archon cost is fine i think, the problem is just the lack of CC cabal units
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TeenageAngst
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PostSubject: Re: 3 Patrols might not be best   Tue Apr 03 2018, 23:40

@Trueborn44 wrote:
@teenageangst Honestly I've never found myself absolutely clamoring for a single unit. I'm not saying it doesn't come up but generally I'll want two of whatever it is because we die quick.

You're right to some degree on HQ bloat, but like I said it's not optimised because I threw it together in 10 minutes. I think you could probably drop atleast 1 Haeme and most of the wracks and make the POF battalion into a vanguard or the elite option and still have 9CP on average. I don't even really feel that it's that bloated though, because aside from the Archons, the other HQ feel very competitively priced for what they do.

HQs are still going to be the worst units we have IMO per effective points. I often want to throw in just one unit, usually as a screen buffer or a backfield babysitter or some other small but absolutely crucial role that now cannot be filled without having to drag along 70 points worth of useless HQ tax.

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Trueborn44
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PostSubject: Re: 3 Patrols might not be best   Tue Apr 03 2018, 23:41

@Quauchtemoc wrote:
@Trueborn44 wrote:
@teenageangst Honestly I've never found myself absolutely clamoring for a single unit. I'm not saying it doesn't come up but generally I'll want two of whatever it is because we die quick.

You're right to some degree on HQ bloat, but like I said it's not optimised because I threw it together in 10 minutes. I think you could probably drop atleast 1 Haeme and most of the wracks and make the POF battalion into a vanguard or the elite option and still have 9CP on average. I don't even really feel that it's that bloated though, because aside from the Archons, the other HQ feel very competitively priced for what they do.

Even the archon cost is fine i think, the problem is just the lack of CC cabal units

Incubi and mandrakes. Mandrakes especially, they got a buff to their AP in CC and a points drop. Whether Incubi are remotely competitive remains to be seen, but either way you can get CC units in your Kabal list even if you're tight on detachments. Trueborn are gone as well now, so what exactly are we gonna take in elites anyway?
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PostSubject: Re: 3 Patrols might not be best   Tue Apr 03 2018, 23:52

@TeenageAngst wrote:
HQs are still going to be the worst units we have IMO per effective points. I often want to throw in just one unit, usually as a screen buffer or a backfield babysitter or some other small but absolutely crucial role that now cannot be filled without having to drag along 70 points worth of useless HQ tax.

Not arguing that our HQs are super duper amazing. I actually think they are pretty good, but I do see where you're coming from. However, I've made a list there as a core that uses all 3 subfactions and has room to be cut down points wise to include those other units for screening etc. if you need them. What are you intending to use as a screen btw?
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Britishgrotesque
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PostSubject: Re: 3 Patrols might not be best   Tue Apr 03 2018, 23:55

Archon with a huskblade/blast pistol shadowfield and the flayed skull warlord trait is a thing to fear now.

Huskblade being +1 str and the flayed skull warlord trait giving +1 str means he is a beatstick.
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PostSubject: Re: 3 Patrols might not be best   Wed Apr 04 2018, 00:02

I've been reluctant to toss around ideas for list building because I don't have the book in my lap and the people who do have been pulling a Reece with their insider knowledge, looking down on us plebs and asking us infantile rhetorical nonsense questions instead of just giving us straight answers. That being said I run Dark Eldar very differently than anyone else I know, 7th or 8th.

I was intending to use a single Talos or a unit of Grotesques as a much needed anti-screen-killer behind the screen of Kabalites I typically run. However if I can't use those models without breaking my detachments then I'm up a creek without a paddle.

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PostSubject: Re: 3 Patrols might not be best   Wed Apr 04 2018, 00:03

I think it's only +1 strength when the archon charges/is charged/heroically intervenes but yeah definetly not a bad combat character, especially if there's a solid melee weapon relic to stack on there.

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PostSubject: Re: 3 Patrols might not be best   Wed Apr 04 2018, 00:19

Whilst TeenageAngst is coming on quite strong, I think he's right about the whole detachment thing.

We really don't seem to be a good army to split up in this manner.

- We're one of the smallest armies at the moment. It really doesn't seem like we have enough models for this sort of thing, and they've even removed 2 of our units in the process (Bloodbrides and Trueborn). Would it not have made more sense to do this to Eldar or Chaos or one of the larger Imperium armies? As it is, it feels like 7th edition Admech - where you had enough units for maybe one small codex, but split into 2 completely separate armies. One didn't even have a HQ choice.

- It seems like they want us to spam our HQs, but didn't consider that when designing said HQs. Unlike IG Company Commanders or Necron Overlords, ours suffer from diminishing returns. Their auras aren't great to begin with (can only affect ~1/4 of our army, can't affect units in transports, can't affect units when the HQ is in a transport - and they have no other mobility etc.), and only get worse en masse. Even from a more fun perspective, like the 'squad leader' idea I was messing around with, I quickly ran into the problem that there are just so few things our HQs can support. They don't have the mobility to keep up with any fast units (so using them to buff Hellions, Reavers or Beasts is out), they can't buff "mercenaries" (so no using them with Mandrakes, Scourges or Incubi), they can't buff while in transports (so no using them with Kabalites in a Raider, and using them with Medusae is either useless or suicide). There's just no end to the units they can't buff. Crying or Very sad

- This might not be so bad if our HQs were cheap, except they're really not. We've only got one cheapish one, and even she is markedly more than Warlocks or Company Commanders. And only one of our factions can even take her. The other two are stuck with 70-80pt HQs, which seems quite expensive.

- There's also no choice in HQs. Cult get to pick between 'a Succubus' and 'another Succubus'. Coven get to choose from 'a Haemonculus' and 'another haemonculus'. Kabal get to pick between 'an Archon' and 'nothing'. This is the sort of thing I mean. Would it not have been better to start with an army with a lot of HQs - so that each faction has some proper choice?

Anyway, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to go off on a rant. It's just that I've been messing around with some lists (using the leaked points and such), and I'm finding this to be a real pain. I can't just take a fun unit on its own (e.g. a Talos I want to use) - I have to give it its own detachment, including HQ and troops (at minimum). Also, I'm constantly left needing more HQs than I know what to do with, and which get prohibitively expensive very quickly.

Maybe there will be something in the actual codex that will help with this?

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PostSubject: Re: 3 Patrols might not be best   Wed Apr 04 2018, 00:27

Im not going to say anything negative till i have 10-15 games.

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PostSubject: Re: 3 Patrols might not be best   Wed Apr 04 2018, 00:35

I'm still waiting for @HERO or someone else with the book in their mitts to tell us how they dealt with it while play testing. I would hate to think they weren't thorough.

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PostSubject: Re: 3 Patrols might not be best   Wed Apr 04 2018, 02:15

@TeenageAngst Exept cabal what do you want in your DE army ? I was thinking about this brigade thing and i have the feeling its really easy to get a "cheap" one

Edit: Ok so we can do this:

HQ : Archon *3 :210 Pt

Elite: 5 Mandrake *3 : 240 pt

Troup: 5 Warrior*6: 180 Pt

Fast attack: (5 Scourge,4 Haywire)*3 : 336 Pt

Support: (3 DL Ravager )*3=375 Pt

Total: 1341 Point


Last edited by Quauchtemoc on Wed Apr 04 2018, 02:32; edited 2 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: 3 Patrols might not be best   Wed Apr 04 2018, 02:19

@Teenageangst You've got me there mate. I hadn't really considered grots, probably because they'd been kinda bad for a while now.
In that case the only thing you could do is make a vanguard detachment and grab two small units of mandrakes to fill out the Elites section. Not ideal. Although on the bright side, they do seem quite reasonable. Where you planning on using three Kabal detachments for the list?
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PostSubject: Re: 3 Patrols might not be best   Wed Apr 04 2018, 03:30

@Quauchtemoc wrote:
@TeenageAngst Exept cabal what do you want in your DE army ? I was thinking about this brigade thing and i have the feeling its really easy to get a "cheap" one

Edit: Ok so we can do this:

HQ : Archon *3 :210 Pt

Elite: 5 Mandrake *3 : 240 pt

Troup: 5 Warrior*6: 180 Pt

Fast attack: (5 Scourge,4 Haywire)*3 : 336 Pt

Support: (3 DL Ravager )*3=375 Pt

Total: 1341 Point

That's about 2/3rds of your points in a detachment that is only one of the 3 factions and has no synergy. My argument isn't that a brigade can't be made. My argument is that in order to get a decent number of command points and in general have the army operate properly then you have to either waste lots and lots of points on useless units to fill out detachments or otherwise relegate yourself to only 1/3rd of the army's units. Yes, you can make a brigade, but it will suck. It didn't have to suck, and the fact we aren't allowed to combine our forces into one detachment without them losing any and all playability is a finger I'm pointing at our very own lovely in-house playtesters.

@Trueborn44 I have no intention of ever running 3 Kabal detachments so help me god.

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PostSubject: Re: 3 Patrols might not be best   Wed Apr 04 2018, 03:32

But then what do you want in your army ? Whyches ? Coven ? And why do you want so much CP ?

I dont understand the kind of synergy you are looking for actually. I mean here the only real taxe unit are the troups ( as allways) and the HQ but it would be the same if we could mix the faction.

If you want you can do the same with Coven btw, just replace Ravager with Talos. Better synergy maybe, IDK
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PostSubject: Re: 3 Patrols might not be best   Wed Apr 04 2018, 04:02

Good sysnergy is hard to do with DE (well new DE). 5th had get synergy and some of 7th did as well.

If a Beastmaster was an HQ (something i was hoping for), you can run a "Fast" moving blob/tieup/no worries Outrider with 20-30 beasts total, a bit of everything, that will protect your Melee character/units like Wyches while in Raiders and Venoms.

Reavers is the closet thing to have synergy with Wyches and they are good, Hellions are to glass for that (and honestly not enough glass damage wise).

So we understand that of Synergy? Good.

The other type of Threat, buffs, anvil and fire magnets: Easyer of them are fire magnets.
If you have a fire magnet you can move other pieces into position are a counter move, Grots and Talos "can" fill this role, so can Ravagers and Flyers. It really depends on the opponent, against IG Tank spam, Reavers are the fire magnets.

You "want" your fire magnets to be really scare but not actually "needed" or "Strong enough to take a hit" this is why spam is a thing, b.c units will die and you need those units. Having 1 unit is an Anvil.

A Tantalus or 1 large unit of Grots can be an Anvil, 1 large strong and mostly hard hitting unit, DE dont really have anvils. BUT you "dont" need anvils if you spread the threat out and force them to attack what you want to attack.
Example: with my harlequins, i have Skyweavers always in melee on turn 1, i fall back, shoot, charge again, and repeat, these units are so important to locking down tanks and stopping them from moving/shooting, that they will do everything they can to remove them, once they are gone i will throw a Troupe Master into it doing the same thing, i just alternate threats (its how i beat the stupid Razorback spam list that was winning tournaments).

When he says that list doesnt have Synergy, you are not building a list to fit all these things together, you are adding units to fill slots and not "roles".


BUT.... IMO your list has enough synergy to actually work, you have AT, AI, forward threats (mandrakes), auras and buffs, bubble wrap, long and mid range etc... since its not a complete list you can always add more of what you think you need, more damage? add weapons/bodies with weapons and flyers, more survivability? add coven detachment, more tie up units? add Reavers.

But if he is talking about just Tri cult, then thats easy to do, we for now on tho will have a small tax of an extra HQ here for there.

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PostSubject: Re: 3 Patrols might not be best   Wed Apr 04 2018, 04:05

I want all three in my army, the way it's always been. And the command points are necessary to make the units function, so you need a good number, I'd say no fewer than 9.

The synergy I'm looking for is being able to use stratagems and claim obsessions with a detachment full of Cult, Kabal, and Coven units. Even if the rules were so that any detachment could only have one flavor of each, I would be okay with that. That would be what other armies have where each detachment has to pick a Craftworld or Chapter. Instead we have to pick 1/3rd of our army and then select what we want them to be and god forbid we have a Succubus in the same detachment as Grotesques then the entire thing goes out the window.

I want to be able to use my army as an army, not have to bungle 3 detachments together with a zillion troop and HQ taxes.

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PostSubject: Re: 3 Patrols might not be best   Wed Apr 04 2018, 04:08

@TeenageAngst wrote:
I want all three in my army, the way it's always been. And the command points are necessary to make the units function, so you need a good number, I'd say no fewer than 9.

The synergy I'm looking for is being able to use stratagems and claim obsessions with a detachment full of Cult, Kabal, and Coven units. Even if the rules were so that any detachment could only have one flavor of each, I would be okay with that. That would be what other armies have where each detachment has to pick a Craftworld or Chapter. Instead we have to pick 1/3rd of our army and then select what we want them to be and god forbid we have a Succubus in the same detachment as Grotesques then the entire thing goes out the window.

I want to be able to use my army as an army, not have to bungle 3 detachments together with a zillion troop and HQ taxes.

Well thats not possible so we have ti find a way around . So i will ask differently : for which role do you want coven and whyches ?

And i'm sorry but as long you want ton oh CP you will have ton of troups and HQ taxe. Thats the same for every army (exept IG )


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PostSubject: Re: 3 Patrols might not be best   Wed Apr 04 2018, 04:09

I'm honestly curious how @TeenageAngst was playing competitively before this release with DE?

Furthermore, to my knowledge, ITC and Games Workshop are entirely two different entities (Please correct me if I'm wrong).  It's ITC's job to create their standards and practices around GW's rules, not the other way around.  

The entire reason ITC made that rule was to help prevent armines like Astro from going even more cheese than they already are at the start of 8th.  Why would there be any reason to think DE wouldn't get an exception to the rule?  It takes all of 2 seconds to read the new rule, realize that it's out of the typical cookie cutter rules and that they need to look into it.

If ITC doesn't after a few months, ask people on the forums to ask them to make a statement.  ITC is small and 10-20 emails would be huge to them.

--

Truth be told what this really sounds like are people are upset that they need to buy new units to have the best of what the codex has to offer.... Which happens EVERY major release.
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PostSubject: Re: 3 Patrols might not be best   Wed Apr 04 2018, 04:13

@amishprn86 wrote:
Im not going to say anything negative till i have 10-15 games.

That sounds like a very good perspective, and one I'll try to stick to myself.

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PostSubject: Re: 3 Patrols might not be best   Wed Apr 04 2018, 04:14

@sethlight wrote:
I'm honestly curious how @TeenageAngst was playing competitively before this release with DE?

Furthermore, to my knowledge, ITC and Games Workshop are entirely two different entities (Please correct me if I'm wrong).  It's ITC's job to create their standards and practices around GW's rules, not the other way around.  

The entire reason ITC made that rule was to help prevent armines like Astro from going even more cheese than they already are at the start of 8th.  Why would there be any reason to think DE wouldn't get an exception to the rule?  It takes all of 2 seconds to read the new rule, realize that it's out of the typical cookie cutter rules and that they need to look into it.

If ITC doesn't after a few months, ask people on the forums to ask them to make a statement.  ITC is small and 10-20 emails would be huge to them.

--

Truth be told what this really sounds like are people are upset that they need to buy new units to have the best of what the codex has to offer.... Which happens EVERY major release.

That was my point yes. And again if the ITC dont react its not playtester ,or even GW, fault
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PostSubject: Re: 3 Patrols might not be best   Wed Apr 04 2018, 04:16

Quote :
Well thats not possible so we have ti find a way around . So i will ask differently : for which role do you want coven and whyches ?

I know it isn't possible. That's why I'm upset. Because we entrusted our own playtesters to make this work and it doesn't. Unless, of course, they have some suggestion on how to work around it. I would be all ears for them to try and explain exactly how we're supposed to bring a full army in 3 detachments with adequate CP and not have it dragged down by massive taxes.

Quote :
I'm honestly curious how @TeenageAngst was playing competitively before this release with DE?

I wasn't playing DE competitively before this codex, because I actually like to win on occasion. I played Harlequins when I wanted to actually stand a chance with an Index army.

Quote :
Furthermore, to my knowledge, ITC and Games Workshop are entirely two different entities (Please correct me if I'm wrong). It's ITC's job to create their standards and practices around GW's rules, not the other way around.

That became a fuzzy line when GW began putting their own guidelines for tournament play in their book and the ITC took it as gospel.

Quote :
Truth be told what this really sounds like are people are upset that they need to buy new units to have the best of what the codex has to offer.... Which happens EVERY major release.

I don't need to buy anything. I'm upset I can't play with the models I have the way I want to anymore.

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PostSubject: Re: 3 Patrols might not be best   Wed Apr 04 2018, 04:32

@sethlight wrote:
I'm honestly curious how @TeenageAngst was playing competitively before this release with DE?

Furthermore, to my knowledge, ITC and Games Workshop are entirely two different entities (Please correct me if I'm wrong).  It's ITC's job to create their standards and practices around GW's rules, not the other way around.  

The entire reason ITC made that rule was to help prevent armines like Astro from going even more cheese than they already are at the start of 8th.  Why would there be any reason to think DE wouldn't get an exception to the rule?  It takes all of 2 seconds to read the new rule, realize that it's out of the typical cookie cutter rules and that they need to look into it.

If ITC doesn't after a few months, ask people on the forums to ask them to make a statement.  ITC is small and 10-20 emails would be huge to them.

--

Truth be told what this really sounds like are people are upset that they need to buy new units to have the best of what the codex has to offer.... Which happens EVERY major release.

GW did their own tournament not long ago (at warhammer world) and they showed how they do tournaments and how they do their rules.

GW cant do ITC rules b.c them ETC, Nove, No-Reteat, etc.. would all want in on it, they most likely play tested and gave advise for sure and GW does watch those tournaments, but only for extremely clear broken units. But that doesnt mean they are basing rules off of those tournament rules.

Dont forget ITC/Nova/ETC/Bay all are averaging 3.5 rounds and are all completely different metas, Warhammer world was even more different than the others.

You cant change/make rules off of 1 tournament when all tournaments have different scenarios, its alsp hard to balance a game when their are many house rules.

So they are more so looking at just mass spammed units.

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PostSubject: Re: 3 Patrols might not be best   Wed Apr 04 2018, 04:37

@TeenageAngst wrote:

I don't need to buy anything. I'm upset I can't play with the models I have the way I want to anymore.

That's the crux right there.  


I'm an Ork player....  And in 7th GW thought it was funny Orks hit themselves harder than they did the enemy AND lost more units to moral than the enemy killed.  They came out and said the rule was busted!  Our main HQ had a typo in his rules that made our moral even worse!

So ya, when 6th turned into 7th, we lost our fearless, I was pissed.  Other players bought bikes to counter those trash rules for like 14$ each!  And then when 8th came around those bikes were trash because of point hikes.

SO ya.... GW tweaks the rules.  It happens. Give it a few weeks, a month tops and watch crap settle.  Use tokens to play around with builds, and that's when you can toss in a few hundred to update your army.

Lastly, your beef is with ITC, who are most likely holding back their opinion because they don't know if they are giving the DE the keys to the kingdom or even worse creating a precedent to let another army trash 'competitive' more than it already is.
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PostSubject: Re: 3 Patrols might not be best   Wed Apr 04 2018, 04:40

I love how everyone is telling me it's someone else's fault other than the people who's fault it clearly is; the playtesters who told GW to make it this way in the first place.

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PostSubject: Re: 3 Patrols might not be best   Wed Apr 04 2018, 04:41

@amishprn86 Please correct me if I'm wrong, the main beef is the 3 detachment limit correct? Which was done my ITC.

Also, just curious. For warhammer world did they have that limit? I'd be surprised if they screwed over their own army for the next one that comes around. (It wouldn't be a first though).
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