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amishprn86
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PostSubject: 3 Patrols might not be best   Tue Apr 03 2018, 15:42

Lets just say 3 is limited for Comp play for now.

3 Patrols IMO might not actually be what we want (Many of us already thought that it might not be). B.c i want at least 4-5 Black Heart Ravagers, but i dont want Black heart Kabals, and i dont want Wyches.

The more and more i'm making lists the more and more i dont want 3 Patrols, i'm looking at;

Black Heart: Spearhead - Ravager spam
Red Grief: Outrider - Reaver Spam
Kabal: Battalion - Kabal Spam (IDK what one i want yet)

The thing is, i wont need 2 Troop spots for ones i dont want (Wyches/black heart) so i can effectivly save points there, i still want 3-4 Kabals but that will always be the case, but im only down 30pts for taking a 2nd Archon over.

This is giving me 1 more CP than 3 Patrols (BF +3, Bat +3, OR +1, SH+1) for 8CP, 3 Patrols is only 7CP




Just food for thought

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: 3 Patrols might not be best   Tue Apr 03 2018, 15:46

Yeah, all my lists have been built around a BH Spearhead as my starting point. For friendly play I'm then looking at adding 3 patrols to that for the extra CP and to fit in the 2 extra warlord traits from Alliance of Agony. If points allow I'd probably then go for a battalion as well for 11 CPs.

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PostSubject: Re: 3 Patrols might not be best   Tue Apr 03 2018, 16:48

Yeah, I've been thinking about this. 3 patrols seems like it's going to be an option, but not necessarily compulsory or the best option... which is good! That kind of flexibility is exactly what I was hoping for from the Codex.
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PostSubject: Re: 3 Patrols might not be best   Tue Apr 03 2018, 17:14

I'm playing an Aeldari army with mostly Drukhari, but also some Harlequins. Mostly because I loved the lore of Harlequins back in 5th when they were still in the Dark Eldar Codex.
So far, I have a pure Drukhari Battalion detachment as my main army, an Outrider detachment for Reavers/Scourges/Hellions (not sure about how to divide those 6 spots between those 3 options yet though) and a Patrol detachment for my Harlequins. Not really optimal, I know, but I don't really have enough models yet to do anything else. And one Battalion + one Outrider already gives me the same CP as 3 Patrol detachments, and demands the same 3 HQ. And I use a mix of Wyches, Kabalites, Wracks and Harlequin Troupes anyway.
If I add another detachment, it will probably be a Vanguard detachment. I already have Incubi and Trueborns, and I am planning on buying a box of Mandrakes.
The only thing that really bothers me about my army so far, is that I am kind of forced to use a Craftworld Farseer Skyrunner as HQ for my Outrider detachment. It's the only Craftworld model I have, and I would prefer to stick to just Drukhari and Harlequins. (I love dark humor, and plan to make it a theme here. Razz ) My first and third detachments are pure Drukhari and pure Harlequins, but my second detachment is Aeldari because we have no fast HQ. :/
I really wish the Baron was still in our Codex. :c

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sethlight
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PostSubject: Re: 3 Patrols might not be best   Tue Apr 03 2018, 17:27

@amishprn86 wrote:
Lets just say 3 is limited for Comp play for now

If it wasn't, would that change your builds?
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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: 3 Patrols might not be best   Tue Apr 03 2018, 17:28

@amishprn86 wrote:
Lets just say 3 is limited for Comp play for now.


...and that's all, folks!!!



If they're not going to write some new guideline for Tournaments for DE (like, unlimited Patrol for theme), 3 Patrol will never be a thing in a competitive way.

If they cut out the limit of 3 Detatchment, instead.....
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PostSubject: Re: 3 Patrols might not be best   Tue Apr 03 2018, 17:31

@Cerve wrote:
@amishprn86 wrote:
Lets just say 3 is limited for Comp play for now.


...and that's all, folks!!!



If they're not going to write some new guideline for Tournaments for DE (like, unlimited Patrol for theme), 3 Patrol will never be a thing in a competitive way.

If they cut out the limit of 3 Detatchment, instead.....

Truth be told, I would be surprised if they didn't make an exception for DE. It's literally in the codex to do this. The rule was put in place to help stop Astro cheese.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: 3 Patrols might not be best   Tue Apr 03 2018, 17:31

Why can you only use a Farseer? You can make a Shadowseer or Troupe Master from a Troupe Box, its not hard, and you can make an Archon from Kabals as well, just add some greenstuff for a cape (or just use masking tape, take an 1x1 inch piece to itself and cut out a cape lol) add extra spikes/shoulder pads to make him look bigger.

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PostSubject: Re: 3 Patrols might not be best   Tue Apr 03 2018, 17:55

@Count Adhemar wrote:
Yeah, all my lists have been built around a BH Spearhead as my starting point. For friendly play I'm then looking at adding 3 patrols to that for the extra CP and to fit in the 2 extra warlord traits from Alliance of Agony. If points allow I'd probably then go for a battalion as well for 11 CPs.

Pretty much this..

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PostSubject: Re: 3 Patrols might not be best   Tue Apr 03 2018, 17:56

@amishprn86 wrote:
Why can you only use a Farseer? You can make a Shadowseer or Troupe Master from a Troupe Box, its not hard, and you can make an Archon from Kabals as well, just add some greenstuff for a cape (or just use masking tape, take an 1x1 inch piece to itself and cut out a cape lol) add extra spikes/shoulder pads to make him look bigger.

I got a new list I'm brewing right now that has a Black Heart Battalion and Alaitoc Patrol. Gotta get a Farseer in there with 2x Hemlocks man.

Black Heart on T4 + PGL + Hemlocks + Mind War might result in some hilarity as well.

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: 3 Patrols might not be best   Tue Apr 03 2018, 17:58

Thats understandable for sure, but it sounded like @Gelmir didnt want his Farseer in his list.

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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: 3 Patrols might not be best   Tue Apr 03 2018, 18:05

It really depends on your strategy IMO. The problem I see with patrols are :

- 1 troop needed. If you play Black Heart this is a problem (Black Heart is strong for vehicles, but sucks for infantry).

- Only 2 special slots : this is a problem for ravagers, for FA spam in Cult... Only elite isn't hurt by this (because we have so little elite anyway now that trueborns are gone).

- Only 3 troops : this can hurt the spam strategy. Having to take 1 Archon per 3 venom-squad is a bit of a pain in the arse, especially since you're gonna affiliate them all to the same subfaction.

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PostSubject: Re: 3 Patrols might not be best   Tue Apr 03 2018, 18:06

@amishprn86 wrote:
Thats understandable for sure, but it sounded like @Gelmir didnt want his Farseer in his list.

That's just because the Farseer would be the only Craftworld in my entire army. Seems silly. I'd prefer a Drukhari HQ since the entire detachment is Drukhari already. But a footslogging Haemonculus as HQ leading a bunch of Reaver jetbikes just seems ridiculous.

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PostSubject: Re: 3 Patrols might not be best   Tue Apr 03 2018, 18:12

@Gelmir wrote:
@amishprn86 wrote:
Thats understandable for sure, but it sounded like @Gelmir didnt want his Farseer in his list.

That's just because the Farseer would be the only Craftworld in my entire army. Seems silly. I'd prefer a Drukhari HQ since the entire detachment is Drukhari already. But a footslogging Haemonculus as HQ leading a bunch of Reaver jetbikes just seems ridiculous.

If you do that you dont get the Cult rules, just take a succubus and walk her, you can get 10"/12" movements so its not like its a problem.

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PostSubject: Re: 3 Patrols might not be best   Tue Apr 03 2018, 18:38

I've been thinking along these same lines as well.  Right now, (depending on the warlord traits ofc) I'm really liking that stratagem that gives us 3 warlords.  3 patrols seems pretty light imo, especially for tournament play.  I threw together bare bones for a 3 battalion list that I would run and came up to around 1550 points.  This was thrown together REALLY quick, just to get some rough numbers.  But that will still leave another 450 points for a few more units and special weapons.

I'm by no means saying that this is the best build, just simply for reference

Bascially:
2xArchon
3x5 warriors (1 blaster) each in a venom with Dual SC (still not sure if that's the best loadout though)

2xHaemonculus
3x10 wracks - on foot for screen

2xSuccubus
3x10 wyches - each in Raider with DL


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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: 3 Patrols might not be best   Tue Apr 03 2018, 19:02

Battalions need 2 HQs Smile

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PostSubject: Re: 3 Patrols might not be best   Tue Apr 03 2018, 19:23

@Mppqlmd wrote:
Battalions need 2 HQs Smile

Hahaha! Thanks! I wish I a good excuse for that one!

I'll edit my post to account for it!
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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: 3 Patrols might not be best   Tue Apr 03 2018, 19:30

But this is an interesting point : unless you want to try a lot of different obsessions, going with 3 battalions is better than going with 6 patrols. 6 HQs, but 9 CP instead of 8. And no problems with tourneys' limits.

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PostSubject: Re: 3 Patrols might not be best   Tue Apr 03 2018, 19:35

Personally, I'm considering taking a Kabalite Batallion along with a Coven Vanguard (for Grotesques and the extra D3 CP). But this is mostly due to the models that I own and the playstyle I got used to in 7th edition.


I loved my Hammer and Anvil army in 7th and hope to reproduce just that.

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PostSubject: Re: 3 Patrols might not be best   Tue Apr 03 2018, 20:18

@Mppqlmd wrote:

- Only 3 troops : this can hurt the spam strategy. Having to take 1 Archon per 3 venom-squad is a bit of a pain in the arse, especially since you're gonna affiliate them all to the same subfaction.

This is honestly what bothers me most. Lack of slots for FA/HS for the patrol detachment isn't that bad because throwing an outrider/spearhead detachment on top of 3 patrols is very doable at 2k, but because of only having one character you can put into a kabal detachment I feel like spamming 5 man units in venoms is really tough now. I don't want to take 1 archon per 3 warrior units in venoms, so what I'll likely be doing is using 10 man warrior units in raiders much more often.

Issue doesn't even go away in battalions, you're still taking 1 archon per 3 warriors.

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PostSubject: Re: 3 Patrols might not be best   Tue Apr 03 2018, 20:28

@Lord Asvaldir wrote:
@Mppqlmd wrote:

- Only 3 troops : this can hurt the spam strategy. Having to take 1 Archon per 3 venom-squad is a bit of a pain in the arse, especially since you're gonna affiliate them all to the same subfaction.

This is honestly what bothers me most. Lack of slots for FA/HS for the patrol detachment isn't that bad because throwing an outrider/spearhead detachment on top of 3 patrols is very doable at 2k, but because of only having one character you can put into a kabal detachment I feel like spamming 5 man units in venoms is really tough now. I don't want to take 1 archon per 3 warrior units in venoms, so what I'll likely be doing is using 10 man warrior units in raiders much more often.

Issue doesn't even go away in battalions, you're still taking 1 archon per 3 warriors.

Yeah this is my Problem, i want like 4-6 Ravagers, but i also want 2-3 Reavers and a couple Scourges.

Im at this point now am 100% sure DE top players will not be using 3 patrols (unless there is magic comp we havent seen yet).

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PostSubject: Re: 3 Patrols might not be best   Tue Apr 03 2018, 20:32

The list I'll be playing friday will be 3 patrols (1 Black Heart with ravagers and a token 5-warrior, 1 heavy Flayed Skull with gunboats, and 1 Cursed blade for wyches and hellions).

I think i'll be tempted to include an Airwing, but I should really invest in a Voidraven, and it's pretty darn expensive.

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PostSubject: Re: 3 Patrols might not be best   Tue Apr 03 2018, 20:35

@Burnage wrote:
Yeah, I've been thinking about this. 3 patrols seems like it's going to be an option, but not necessarily compulsory or the best option... which is good! That kind of flexibility is exactly what I was hoping for from the Codex.

This was my experience playtesting the codex. I ran the triple Patrol a few times, pretty much only when I wanted to play all three sub-factions in smaller games. For the most part I ended going with my usual Battalion+Outrider+whatever struck my fancy if I needed it in 1,500-2,000pt games. It's really an option if you want it for flavor but not the build I usually ran. I found that the triple Patrol lists limited my lists more than opened up options.

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PostSubject: Re: 3 Patrols might not be best   Tue Apr 03 2018, 20:42

@Evil Space Elves wrote:
@Burnage wrote:
Yeah, I've been thinking about this. 3 patrols seems like it's going to be an option, but not necessarily compulsory or the best option... which is good! That kind of flexibility is exactly what I was hoping for from the Codex.

This was my experience playtesting the codex. I ran the triple Patrol a few times, pretty much only when I wanted to play all three sub-factions in smaller games. For the most part I ended going with my usual Battalion+Outrider+whatever struck my fancy if I needed it in 1,500-2,000pt games. It's really an option if you want it for flavor but not the build I usually ran. I found that the triple Patrol lists limited my lists more than opened up options.

Did you play any 6 patrol list? B.c if players are ok with DE doing it and tournaments too, its something i'm very interested in trying out.

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PostSubject: Re: 3 Patrols might not be best   Tue Apr 03 2018, 20:50

@amishprn86 wrote:
@Evil Space Elves wrote:
@Burnage wrote:
Yeah, I've been thinking about this. 3 patrols seems like it's going to be an option, but not necessarily compulsory or the best option... which is good! That kind of flexibility is exactly what I was hoping for from the Codex.

This was my experience playtesting the codex. I ran the triple Patrol a few times, pretty much only when I wanted to play all three sub-factions in smaller games. For the most part I ended going with my usual Battalion+Outrider+whatever struck my fancy if I needed it in 1,500-2,000pt games. It's really an option if you want it for flavor but not the build I usually ran. I found that the triple Patrol lists limited my lists more than opened up options.

Did you play any 6 patrol list? B.c if players are ok with DE doing it and tournaments too, its something i'm very interested in trying out.

Never had a need/points to run 6HQ's due to the builds that I usually run. For games in that 1,500-2,000pt range My usual go to is a Battalion and one other Onslaught/Outrider/Vangaurd detachment. 7 CP was sort of the sweet spot for those games where I felt like I was able to use the Strategems that I wanted.

Of course these were just my experiences playing in my meta. Individual results may vary.

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