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 Anti Infantry: Shredder Scourges vs Mandrakes

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Anti Infantry: Shredder Scourges vs Mandrakes   Tue Apr 03 2018, 16:27

@LordSplata wrote:
Nice points Dizzie,  I hadn't taken into account just straight up Warriors.    Not sure I'd use SC's though,  the additional fire isn't great for their price (10 points extra for two shots extra as opposed to 2 extra warriors being 12 points).   I'm probably more likely to run a couple of DL's in there to create an even better distraction and over saturation of targets

Thanks amish, will have to look into the shredders.  I had it very wrong before then.

Double check my math tho if someone can, (im dyslexic so sometimes i hit things wrong).

I didnt think they would be better than Mandrakes shooting honestly, i was going in expecting mandrakes being better. Mandrakes for sure are a mix unit, you need to shoot and melee with them.

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Dizzie
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PostSubject: Re: Anti Infantry: Shredder Scourges vs Mandrakes   Tue Apr 03 2018, 16:37

Hey Splata long time no see  Shocked

@LordSplata wrote:
  I'm probably more likely to run a couple of DL's in there to create an even better distraction and over saturation of targets

Dark lances are not bad, you do have that stratagem that lets you shoot before fleeing so your guys don't flee, plus its not as if you can't shoot it at other vehicles, though i don't like the minus 1.
This is dakka warriors, we need more dakka and most importantly, to be able to move about and shoot, not as if we are short on dark light, so i think a lot of this will come down to preference, It will be interesting to see the warrior builds a few weeks after the codex drop.

At rapid fire range its 12 shots compared to 8 for your dudes, but it is at max squad already. Is the shredder 18" now?, i thought i saw that before but was unconfirmed? which was going to bring me to my next point about scourges carrying them but if it is 18" that's great.


Last edited by Dizzie on Tue Apr 03 2018, 16:41; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : points were off)
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Lord Asvaldir
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PostSubject: Re: Anti Infantry: Shredder Scourges vs Mandrakes   Tue Apr 03 2018, 16:39

Shredders is still 12", you probably saw that obsidian rose can make the shredder range 18", but that can't actually effect scourges so they are stuck with range 12". Not the end of the world for them though, 12" range can still work with deep strike and if you need to have them shoot then drop back into cover there's always fire&fade. Mandrakes are definitely tougher targets with the -1 to hit, but having scourges fire&fade back into cover isn't bad since it makes them +3 armor.

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Anti Infantry: Shredder Scourges vs Mandrakes   Tue Apr 03 2018, 16:45

@Lord Asvaldir wrote:
Shredders is still 12", you probably saw that obsidian rose can make the shredder range 18", but that can't actually effect scourges so they are stuck with range 12". Not the end of the world for them though, 12" range can still work with deep strike and if you need to have them shoot then drop back into cover there's always fire&fade. Mandrakes are definitely tougher targets with the -1 to hit, but having scourges fire&fade back into cover isn't bad since it makes them +3 armor.

18" shredders is a good option IMO, that means you can almost always stay in a much safer spot.

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PostSubject: Re: Anti Infantry: Shredder Scourges vs Mandrakes   Tue Apr 03 2018, 16:54

Yeah obsidian rose would be super handy for scourges, both haywire blasters and shredders would benefit a lot from the trait but o well, no obsessions for scourges. Just will have to make do with the 12" range.

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Dizzie
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PostSubject: Re: Anti Infantry: Shredder Scourges vs Mandrakes   Tue Apr 03 2018, 16:59

TBH there's no real easy answer for this, for which is the outright winner and i'm glad to see it, means we have balance, when you factor in stratagems, obsessions, survivability and utility it gets even more confusing.

At 12" i doubt i would ever run shredders on scourges it just opens them up to charge range, i know they can still run away and shoot but it just seems like too much high risk for the other weapon options they have available. Its likely my scourges will run with HWB mostly and be on tank hunting duties, maybe run with pure shard carbines from time to time but i really don't see shredders as a good option for them.

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LordSplata
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PostSubject: Re: Anti Infantry: Shredder Scourges vs Mandrakes   Wed Apr 04 2018, 11:55

@Dizzie, Yeah, i took a hiatus while we waited for the codex, just got bored of the index and feeling underpowered.

Wow. I just ran the numbers for Shredders. I take it back and then some. They are infantry demolishing kings. That re-roll, wow.

Ooh. This is interesting, if you take 16 warriors with rilfes and 4 with shredders, you do better points per wound against MEQ (19.73ppw, 7.70 wounds) than if you take the splinter cannons in the squad 14 warriors, 4 shredders 2 SC, (20.02ppw, 8.59 wounds). All because shredders do amazing ppw's!
14 points for a warrior that does 1.04 damage against a MEQ per shooting phase. Huge!

And it just makes the Obsidian rose ability even better.

I am excited.
As you say Dizzie, so many options! I love it!
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Anti Infantry: Shredder Scourges vs Mandrakes   Wed Apr 04 2018, 11:59

Yeah we have way to many options now! (Pst, thats a good thing).

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DevilDoll
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PostSubject: Re: Anti Infantry: Shredder Scourges vs Mandrakes   Wed Apr 04 2018, 12:26

what about a tantalus deep striking with 15 shredder scourges inside? ^_^
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Dizzie
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PostSubject: Re: Anti Infantry: Shredder Scourges vs Mandrakes   Wed Apr 04 2018, 14:54

@DevilDoll wrote:
what about a tantalus deep striking with 15 shredder scourges inside? ^_^

I went back to read the FAQ but its only raiders and venoms that cannot transport Hellions or Scourges. So this is perfectly legit for the moment.

@Splata i really cant remember being on here much at all at the start, except when i was lurking from time to time, last place i remember talking to you was over in LO before we all moved over here years ago, but yeah i have not played too much either, codex has been dire, which is why i'm back too.
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Dr.Clock
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PostSubject: Re: Anti Infantry: Shredder Scourges vs Mandrakes   Wed Apr 04 2018, 15:59

In my outings with the Index list I was using 2x6 Mandrakes as a skirmish screen for 3x6 Scourges, and it worked really well. With the points on both going down this will remain a solid core of my strategy... the two units together make a solid hammer for outflanking/encircling the enemy after the first turn joust, and their deployment shenanigans mean they can capitalize on any enemy movement mistakes in turn 1 or 2.

So in essence, my vote is for BOTH! You should be able to squeeze the 200 or so points you need to bring down a unit of each, with the Scourges running interference with their high M rate and the Mandrakes running in there with their S4 1ap CC attacks to mop things up and keep the enemy from coordinating a strong counter-punch. From the enemy back field or flank the two together should be able to neuter almost any infantry on the drop.

That said, blasters on Scourges are still worth their weight in gold - my list is blaster and DL scourges to give a solid anti-heavy compliment to the Mandrake infantry mop crew. Not all infantry is so kind as to mill around outside of metal bawkses, so being able to drop into LoS of out of the way transports and then threaten the contents with Mandrakes is super helpful in allowing a skimmer force to continue to play standoff into the late game, and keep the enemy bottled up.

All this chatter around shredders is interesting... if you can't afford multiple Scourge units then a unit of 8 or so with 2 blasters and 2 shredders could make for a great 'jack of all trades' unit.

While it would be cool to be able to give these two units Obsessions, I freely admit that 24" blasters on Scourges would be a holy terror : /

Happy Hunting,

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PostSubject: Re: Anti Infantry: Shredder Scourges vs Mandrakes   Wed Apr 04 2018, 18:17

@LordSplata wrote:
Nice points Dizzie,  I hadn't taken into account just straight up Warriors.    Not sure I'd use SC's though,  the additional fire isn't great for their price (10 points extra for two shots extra as opposed to 2 extra warriors being 12 points).   I'm probably more likely to run a couple of DL's in there to create an even better distraction and over saturation of targets

Thanks amish, will have to look into the shredders.  I had it very wrong before then.
The point comparison is certainly apt (should have been 5 points for the splinter cannons, but whatever), but you don't have the option of buying two more warriors if you are in a Raider, or are already at the 20-man size.

I don't really understand the previous math, however, it was determined that even though the splinter cannons do more wounds overall (effectively 4 extra shots @<18"), due to their cost the overall efficiency of the unit is actually less?

While I am not fond of the splinter weapons in general, I do like how the poison rule makes headmath easy to perform. The splinter cannon helps this because it brings the effective number of rifles in a 10-man squad to 10 with 2 special weapons.

I have been considering the viability of a Poison Tongue mob of Warriors WWPing into action with an Archon that ran up to support (so would be turn 2+).

Not counting the 4 shredders that are in both squads, we have:
Squad A: 16 splinter rifles = 32 shots re-roll 1s to hit/wound = 14.45 wounds
Squad B: 14 rifles + 2 cannons = 40 shots with re-rolls = 18.07 wounds.

20 points for 3.5 extra wounds before saves doesn't seem bad.
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LordSplata
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PostSubject: Re: Anti Infantry: Shredder Scourges vs Mandrakes   Thu Apr 05 2018, 09:51

"it was determined that even though the splinter cannons do more wounds overall (effectively 4 extra shots @<18"), due to their cost the overall efficiency of the unit is actually less?" Yes, although this was run without any obsessions with the warriors coming bog standard out of the box.

Interestingly with an obsession the points per wound (ppw) for squad A and Squad B (including shredders) come out almost equal (with the no SC's coming out ever so slightly ahead).

With that said. The opportunity cost of losing those extra wounds is quite high, and it is probably worthwhile spending the extra points for those extra wounds.

@Dissie, Oh wow! Yeah I recognised your name before but just figured it couldn't be you! haha, Shows why we keep our names between forums!
Poor old LO, but I'm pelase we ended up on the same forums as I always enjoyed your point of view on things; stinger pistol's creating an exploding train of models was a great rules debate!
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