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 Anti Infantry: Shredder Scourges vs Mandrakes

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Lyceus
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PostSubject: Anti Infantry: Shredder Scourges vs Mandrakes   Mon Apr 02 2018, 17:22

I really would appreciate some updated chart from the mathhammer gurus here. Is there already one?

Scourges with shredders(92p) or stock(60p) vs mandrakes(80p).

Are they even better then kabalites in venoms?
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Chippen
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PostSubject: Re: Anti Infantry: Shredder Scourges vs Mandrakes   Mon Apr 02 2018, 17:35

I won't go through all the trouble of combining the squads and whatnot, but here's 1 weapon of each type you wanted against both GEQs and MEQs. This does not count assault for the Mandrakes as I'm not 100% sure what the new Glimmersteel Blade stats are.

New Shredder kills 1.46 GEQ, .65 MEQ
Shardcarbine kills .67 GEQ, .33 MEQ
Baleblast kills .96 GEQ, .56 MEQ

That's one weapon each.

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FrankyMcShanky
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PostSubject: Re: Anti Infantry: Shredder Scourges vs Mandrakes   Mon Apr 02 2018, 20:26

@Chippen wrote:
I won't go through all the trouble of combining the squads and whatnot, but here's 1 weapon of each type you wanted against both GEQs and MEQs. This does not count assault for the Mandrakes as I'm not 100% sure what the new Glimmersteel Blade stats are.

New Shredder kills 1.46 GEQ, .65 MEQ
Shardcarbine kills .67 GEQ, .33 MEQ
Baleblast kills .96 GEQ, .56 MEQ

That's one weapon each.

Is that factoring in the Baleblasts mortal wounds?
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mynamelegend
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PostSubject: Re: Anti Infantry: Shredder Scourges vs Mandrakes   Mon Apr 02 2018, 21:11

Yes, those are factoring in the Mortal Wounds, I can tell you that right now.

The points-per-wound on a 5 man squad of Scourges with 4 Shredders, a 5 man squad of Scourges with nothing, a 5 man squad of Mandrakes, are as follows.

Shredder Scourges: 14.13 PWW versus GEQ, 31.4 PPW versus MEQ.
Bare Scourges: 17.91 PPW versus GEQ, 36.36 PPW versus MEQ.
Mandrakes: 16.66 PPW versus GEQ, 28.57 PPW versus MEQ.

For comparison, here's the same numbers for a 5-man unit of Kabalites in a 2x Splinter Cannon Venom, and a 10-man unit of Kabalites in a Splinter Rack Disintegrator Raider. Assuming Flayed Skull obsession.

5 Kabalites in a Venom cost 105 points and cause 5.7 GEQ kills and 2.84 MEQ kills. Meaning 18.42 PPW versus GEQ, 36.97 PPW versus MEQ.

10 Kabalites in a Dissie Raider with Splinter Racks costs 150 points and cause 7.81 GEQ kills and 4.12 MEQ kills. Meaning 19.2 PPW versus GEQ, 36.41 PPW versus MEQ.


Teal Deer: Shredder Scourges for Guard, Mandrakes for Marines. Most options are close enough to each other for government work, so you might want to focus on either defensive profiles or how well they work outside their comfort zone.
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Imateria
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PostSubject: Re: Anti Infantry: Shredder Scourges vs Mandrakes   Mon Apr 02 2018, 21:27

It feels really weird to be talking about the Shredder as viable option for the first time in 20 years.
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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Anti Infantry: Shredder Scourges vs Mandrakes   Mon Apr 02 2018, 21:31

I still wish it would be auto hits but I take what I get.
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Imateria
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PostSubject: Re: Anti Infantry: Shredder Scourges vs Mandrakes   Mon Apr 02 2018, 21:36

Sure, but it would also likely go down from 12 to 8" range so I'm OK without the auto hits.
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Lord Asvaldir
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PostSubject: Re: Anti Infantry: Shredder Scourges vs Mandrakes   Mon Apr 02 2018, 21:46

Yeah if you compare the shredder to flamers, which tend to be just 1pts less, shredders seem like a good deal. +2 strength, an actual ap value and rerolls vs infantry, seems better to me vs infantry than flamers. I think I will initially test shredders on warriors though, and then if that works out well I'll probably grab another box of scourges and give them some shredders.

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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Anti Infantry: Shredder Scourges vs Mandrakes   Mon Apr 02 2018, 21:50

Those must be great when build from Obsidian rose.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Anti Infantry: Shredder Scourges vs Mandrakes   Mon Apr 02 2018, 21:55

Mandrakes from what im being told are -2 to hit vs shooting and -1ap in melee, is that is true i'll be using 10 of them every game.

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PostSubject: Re: Anti Infantry: Shredder Scourges vs Mandrakes   Mon Apr 02 2018, 21:57

I don't see how they are -2 to hit, that seems a bit much considering they already have an invul save and got a pts reduction. Now I'm pretty sure we have that -1 to hit stratagem that eldar get, which would let you get to -2 to hit but not -2 to hit base.

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Anti Infantry: Shredder Scourges vs Mandrakes   Mon Apr 02 2018, 22:00

I just dbl check the bols video, they are still only -1 to it, another video said they were -2, so they must be wrong. (I trust Bols one b.c i can see the codex in front of them)

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PostSubject: Re: Anti Infantry: Shredder Scourges vs Mandrakes   Mon Apr 02 2018, 23:03

From those numbers, it really appears the weapons are very much equivalent, especially against guard.
So while good at it I wouldn't say shredders have a niche in the anti hoard space. So what are they properly good at? Otherwise I will take more bodies in 9/10 scenarios due to the benefits of shear numbers

Str6 should be ok vs transports except for the damage.
Ok against elites except for the ap.
They are great vs grotesques and ork nobs. But then so are splinter rifles, as that is where poison shines.
No overwatch benefit without auto hits.

I'm not sure (even though they are ok now) that they will get any love this edition, as they just don't have a purpose.

Edit: mandrakes for their price are amazing! However the dissie ravager may just be more amazingererer
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PostSubject: Re: Anti Infantry: Shredder Scourges vs Mandrakes   Mon Apr 02 2018, 23:34

Scourge seems to have the edge here but dont forget that mandrake are dangerous in CC to while scourge are well ... not that threatening
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PostSubject: Re: Anti Infantry: Shredder Scourges vs Mandrakes   Tue Apr 03 2018, 02:00

@amishprn86 wrote:
I just dbl check the bols video, they are still only -1 to it, another video said they were -2, so they must be wrong. (I trust Bols one b.c i can see the codex in front of them)

Are you sure that wasn't using the Lightning Reaction strat? Seems like a choice of unit to use it on too.
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Evil Space Elves
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PostSubject: Re: Anti Infantry: Shredder Scourges vs Mandrakes   Tue Apr 03 2018, 02:14

@amishprn86 wrote:
I just dbl check the bols video, they are still only -1 to it, another video said they were -2, so they must be wrong. (I trust Bols one b.c i can see the codex in front of them)

Only -1. Baleblasts are unchanged, their Glimmersteel blades were changed to AP -1.

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PostSubject: Re: Anti Infantry: Shredder Scourges vs Mandrakes   Tue Apr 03 2018, 02:29

@Evil Space Elves wrote:
@amishprn86 wrote:
I just dbl check the bols video, they are still only -1 to it, another video said they were -2, so they must be wrong. (I trust Bols one b.c i can see the codex in front of them)

Only -1. Baleblasts are unchanged, their Glimmersteel blades were changed to AP -1.

^^ This......so good! Razz
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Chippen
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PostSubject: Re: Anti Infantry: Shredder Scourges vs Mandrakes   Tue Apr 03 2018, 03:32

Oh, Shredders are S6? I'm pretty sure I did it as S4 in my earlier post.

Shredder Scourge aren't as good as the math suggests. You have to get into suicide range to use them, and while you can save them with a Fire and Fade (maybe), why spend a CP when you can take either Mandrakes who are more durable or a Flayed Skull Venom gunboat which is even more so?

Given the choice suggested in the title, I think it's a no-brainer for Mandrakes.

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PostSubject: Re: Anti Infantry: Shredder Scourges vs Mandrakes   Tue Apr 03 2018, 08:39

I think scourges have their use because of the stratagem. They can jump behind a wall or drop in range of a occupied objective - kill all or most units and jump onto the objective with the 7 inch move. But yeah they are to fragile to take in numbers. I will try 2 units today against tau Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Anti Infantry: Shredder Scourges vs Mandrakes   Tue Apr 03 2018, 13:56

@Chippen wrote:
Oh, Shredders are S6? I'm pretty sure I did it as S4 in my earlier post.

Shredder Scourge aren't as good as the math suggests. You have to get into suicide range to use them, and while you can save them with a Fire and Fade (maybe), why spend a CP when you can take either Mandrakes who are more durable or a Flayed Skull Venom gunboat which is even more so?

Given the choice suggested in the title, I think it's a no-brainer for Mandrakes.
Scourge have always been a suicide unit, so no change there.
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PostSubject: Re: Anti Infantry: Shredder Scourges vs Mandrakes   Tue Apr 03 2018, 13:57

@Lord Asvaldir wrote:
Yeah if you compare the shredder to flamers, which tend to be just 1pts less, shredders seem like a good deal. +2 strength, an actual ap value and rerolls vs infantry, seems better to me vs infantry than flamers. I think I will initially test shredders on warriors though, and then if that works out well I'll probably grab another box of scourges and give them some shredders.
Flamers tend to be 1pt more, Marines, Craftworlds and Tau all pay 9pts for a flamer. The Shredder is much better than that.
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PostSubject: Re: Anti Infantry: Shredder Scourges vs Mandrakes   Tue Apr 03 2018, 15:06

But flamers auto hit, when you play an all shooting army auto hit for overwatch can really help.

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PostSubject: Re: Anti Infantry: Shredder Scourges vs Mandrakes   Tue Apr 03 2018, 15:49


TBH the criteria at the start i would never run as.
5 scourges would not be holding shredders, it would be 10 men, as for scourges being a suicide unit, the last 9 months of index use would like to disagree, shard carbine scourges are solid and easy to deepstrike into cover and be a nuisance.

doubt i would run mandrakes as 5 men either, just not competent enough to do anything at that number, ideally its going to be 10 once again.
Basically in both scenarios with 10 men and 5, the mandrakes pull ahead due to their charge after.

However if i was running at 10 men then the warrior choice would be considered, its not that more expensive its about 20 points more for 20 warriors with 4 shredders and 2 SC's using poisoned tongue obsession, basically warriors win hands down in shooting, and mandrakes pull marginally ahead when charging, however this does not include warriors charging, for obvious reasons, otherwise warriors win again.
I can see a lot of this coming down to CP usage, stratagems and synergy in the army for what ultimately gets chosen, tbh the difference and utility in all 3 is different so they all have their uses.

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Anti Infantry: Shredder Scourges vs Mandrakes   Tue Apr 03 2018, 16:13

But for just basic unit points lets do with Shredders, and without and Mandrakes equal amount to them

10 Scourge is 120pts = 7.5 Mandrakes (closer to 8 man) so 8 Mandrakes
5 Shredder Scourges is 92pts

Lets say its GEQ and MEQ for now, not TEQ or Vehicle (thats Discannons and DL's jobs)
Assuming no Re-rolls

VS GEQ
10 Scourge = 6.67 dead
8 Mandrakes = 7.76 dead
5 Scourges = Total 8.24 (Sh: 7.57,  Sc: 0.67)


VS MEQ
10 Scourges 3.33 dead
8 Mandrakes = 4.5 dead
5 Scourges = Total 4.13  (Sh: 3.5, Sc 0.33)


Either way for the points, Shredders do better, you can take 1-2 more Scourges to equal the 8 Mandrakes and the 10 Scourges to do an extra 1/2 1/3 wound per add, but idk if that is worth it for you.


BUT: Mandrakes are -1 to hit, 5++, and 2 attack -1ap in melee. Scourges.... well they die faster.

I honestly am liking Shredders now for GEQ

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Last edited by amishprn86 on Tue Apr 03 2018, 16:24; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Anti Infantry: Shredder Scourges vs Mandrakes   Tue Apr 03 2018, 16:21

Nice points Dizzie,  I hadn't taken into account just straight up Warriors.    Not sure I'd use SC's though,  the additional fire isn't great for their price (10 points extra for two shots extra as opposed to 2 extra warriors being 12 points).   I'm probably more likely to run a couple of DL's in there to create an even better distraction and over saturation of targets

Thanks amish, will have to look into the shredders. I had it very wrong before then.
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