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 How do you counter Dark Reapers?

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Tom090
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PostSubject: How do you counter Dark Reapers?    Mon Apr 02 2018, 16:05

Hi everyone, I'm a new dark Eldar player and i'm struggling in my local game chiefly because my friends Dark Reapers are so potent.

He runs them with a couple of Wave Serpents close by so he can disembark cast "word of the pheonix" to shoot twice with his 10 man squad then embark them so they're protected by the Wave Serpents.

He also tends to have a character that can cast forewarned if I try and deep-strike them. So basically they either sit in the wave serpent if he fears my AT or they are out in the open and use forewarned if I try to deep strike (I've seen that's  now an option with the new codex).

My list for the last game looked like this:

Battalion (3CP)
HQ Archon with agonizer 58
HQ Archon 54 Fyer
Troops 10 kabalites 70
Troops 10 kabalites 70
Troops 5 kabalites   35
Elites 5TB, 4 blaster 105
Elites 5TB, 4 blaster 105
Fast attack 4x Reaver Jet Bikes with grav talons and 1 balster 155
Fast Attack Scourges 4 x blasters 130
Heavy Support Tanatalus 350
Heavy Support Ravager w 3 Dark Lances 155
Transport Venom   65
Transport Venom 65
Transports Raider with Dark Lance 115
Air Wing (1CP)
Flyer Razorwing with Dark Lances 155
Fyer        Razorwing with Dark Lances 155
Flyer Razorwing with Dark Lances 155

Total=1997


The Kablites and Archon go in the Raider and the Tantalaus the Trueborn are in the Venoms tank hunting.

His List Looks like this:


Alaitoc
Battalion +3CP
HQ Warlock 175
HQ Farseer 100
Troops Dire avengers*5, 2xCE, TC WS SS 184
Troops Dire avengers*5, 2xCE, TC WS SS 184
Troops Dire avengers*5, 2xCE, TC WS SS 184
Flyers Phoenix 135
Flyers Hemlock 210
1172

Ynnari
Battalion +3CP
HQ Warlock 35
HQ Yvraine 132
Troops Corsair w/ shardcarbine*5 35
Troops Corsair w/ shardcarbine*5 35
Troops Corsair w/ shardcarbine*5 35
Fast attack Shining spears*7 168
Heavy support 10* DR, tempest, serpent 405
845


Any ideas people?


Thanks for reading
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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: How do you counter Dark Reapers?    Mon Apr 02 2018, 16:12

@Tom090 wrote:
He runs them with a couple of Wave Serpents close by so he can disembark cast "word of the pheonix" to shoot twice with his 10 man squad then embark them so they're protected by the Wave Serpents.

How is he embarking them after shooting twice in a single turn?

My gut feeling is that Reavers are going to be a good answer to this from the Codex - they could feasibly charge the Dark Reapers on turn 1 and won't be getting shot by Forewarned. Tie them up in close combat and they won't be shooting much.
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sethlight
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PostSubject: Re: How do you counter Dark Reapers?    Mon Apr 02 2018, 16:16

Wait, he can unload them, they shoot, THEN they go back in?  Unless that's some skill you can't do that.

Also, your friend is cheese.  The only way to counter that is to tell him to play nice, not play with him, or go cheese yourself.

Also, what's forwarned?  Lets you attack something deep striking?
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Tom090
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PostSubject: Re: How do you counter Dark Reapers?    Mon Apr 02 2018, 16:38

Ok so I have questioned the rules he's using because I think his reading of them is a bit liberal. We're all very new to 40k though so I don't want to be that guy that ruins his fun just cause I took a beating. I'm honestly OK with that it's part of the appeal of Dark Eldar they are Glassy and that's hopefully going to generate some cool all or nothing situations.

I found this from GW

Q: Can I embark within a transport at any time
other than in the Movement phase, such as following
a consolidate move that takes a unit within 3" of
a transport?
A: No. You may only embark within or disembark a
transport in the Movement phase, unless a rule or ability
explicitly says otherwise.

here's the source: https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/warhammer_40000_stepping_into_a_new_edition_en.pdf


I think that along with "Fire and Fade" suggests that he can pop them out of 1 serpent and put them back into another? Which is pretty irritating because it effectively means his reapers have 27 wounds with the wave serpent. That's a lot of AT I have to take!

Here's what Fire and Fade does in case people don't know:

"Fire and Fade (1 CP): After a friendly Asuryani unit shoots, it can move 7" as if it was the movement phase; however, it may not advance as part of this extra move and will be unable to charge that turn. Still a small price to pay for getting move-shoot-move back. It gives a great mobility boost as well as Advance-Shoot-Move is possible. Finally it can be a nice option to get a unit back into cover after it has finished off a unit in the shooting phase for Non-Ynnari."

The issue with Reavers so far has been I have to CC the serpent if he embarks the reapers and the serpent will then just run away next turn. Then the reapers hop out and ruin my day. He definitely does fear them though so maybe larger units so I can deal more mortal wounds?

Forewarned does this

"Forewarned (2 CP): Used whenever an enemy unit arrives from the battlefield within eyesight of a friendly unit that is within 6" of a friendly farseer. That friendly unit may make an out-of-sequence shooting attack. Unlike other similar stratagems, this one doesn't force a -1 to-hit penalty, and can be outside of 12"! You DO have to bubble-wrap/conga line next to a Farseer for this to really pay off. This is actually really broken. Your opponent's gotta be REALLY careful not to get his deep striking unit shot to crap from Dark Reapers who could see them, or even humble guardians taking down a Lictor before it could do crap to them." (from 1D4Chan)

So yeah if they are in the serpents they are ridiculously tanky and if they aren't I can't deep strike them! My most successful units have been the flyers just because he can't table them after turn 1.
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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: How do you counter Dark Reapers?    Mon Apr 02 2018, 16:42

If he tries that again, tell him to look at page 183 in the rulebook - at the end of the first paragraph in the Transports section, it reads "Note that a unit cannot both embark and disembark in the same turn."

Ynnari Dark Reapers are difficult enough to deal with without bending rules to help them even more.
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Tom090
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PostSubject: Re: How do you counter Dark Reapers?    Mon Apr 02 2018, 16:47

OK so it's just not allowed! Well that's a relief. It's a bit embarrassing but in a recent game after turn 1 I'd lost around 1000 points. Was not fun =(. Any ideas on my list? What would you guys run?
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sethlight
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PostSubject: Re: How do you counter Dark Reapers?    Mon Apr 02 2018, 16:58

@Burnage wrote:
If he tries that again, tell him to look at page 183 in the rulebook - at the end of the first paragraph in the Transports section, it reads "Note that a unit cannot both embark and disembark in the same turn."

Ynnari Dark Reapers are difficult enough to deal with without bending rules to help them even more.

Eh, I'd tell him sooner than that imo.  Just tell him before game, "Hey man, was looking over the rules and found this thing on page 183" people are less likely to start arguing with you if you're upfront about it before hand because while it's happening it feels like you're screwing them over.

Edit: Also, I can't tell you how many times I've realized I've broken the rules after a game. Then said outright, hey man, that last game? I accidentally cheated by doing bla bla bla, that's my bad.
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sethlight
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PostSubject: Re: How do you counter Dark Reapers?    Mon Apr 02 2018, 17:08

@Tom090 wrote:
OK so it's just not allowed! Well that's a relief. It's a bit embarrassing but in a recent game after turn 1 I'd lost around 1000 points. Was not fun =(. Any ideas on my list? What would you guys run?  


Dark Reapers are really strong.

I'd deep strike with disintegrator cannons.  They will make QUICK work of them.  They are just a normal unit so anyone with LoS can hit them.
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Alezya
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PostSubject: Re: How do you counter Dark Reapers?    Mon Apr 02 2018, 17:38

@sethlight wrote:


Dark Reapers are really strong.

I'd say pop out of the webway with disintegrator cannons.  They will make QUICK work of them.  They are just a normal unit so anyone with LoS can hit them.


They still can intercept.

But yeah, DR are really strong...
And overall, he plays with a very strong list, lol.

How are your tables and your terrains? Do you have many LoS blocking?

I would try to have less drop than him to have the +1 to start. I count 12 drops for him and 14 for you? (Does the tantalus have transport capacity?) I don't know the rules of the tantalus at all as I don't play FW...

We'll assume you play with the rules from the new codex and what leaked so far?

-Play the same Ynnari Battalion as he does (he will taste what he gives you), with a DE Black Heart Battalion or something else for the NopeVect Stratagem, with less drops (for the +1), and more fast/killing units.
-Black heart kabal for the Nope Stratagem: You can use it to block his forewaring if you DS a unit, preferably a unit with a lot of dakka (20 kabalites with shredder for example). He does not have any rangers, so he will not be able to block too much your DS. You DS nearby his Alaitoc's unit (below 12" like this you will not have -1 to hit).
-I would swap the DLs for DCs on all your vehicles.
-A cult detachment can be also nice for T1 charge with Reavers.
-Or you can try to field a Coven for shooting characters and d3 mortal wounds on that Yvraine. She's the only one who can make them shoot twice.

Forewarning states that you have to be in LoS of the Farseer. You might try to put yourself behind a LoS blocking buildings.

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PostSubject: Re: How do you counter Dark Reapers?    Mon Apr 02 2018, 17:50

Wow, Alatoic, Ynarri, AND bullshit rules-bending. That guy's Karma cancer will be a doozy.
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sethlight
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PostSubject: Re: How do you counter Dark Reapers?    Mon Apr 02 2018, 18:10

@Alezya wrote:
I would try to have less drop than him to have the +1 to start. I count 12 drops for him and 14 for you? (Does the tantalus have transport capacity?) I don't know the rules of the tantalus at all as I don't play FW...

It can carry 16 models.


@Alezya wrote:

We'll assume you play with the rules from the new codex and what leaked so far?  

-Play the same Ynnari Battalion as he does (he will taste what he gives you), with a DE Black Heart Battalion or something else for the NopeVect Stratagem, with less drops (for the +1), and more fast/killing units.
-Black heart kabal for the Nope Stratagem: You can use it to block his forewaring if you DS a unit, preferably a unit with a lot of dakka (20 kabalites with shredder for example). He does not have any rangers, so he will not be able to block too much your DS. You DS nearby his Alaitoc's unit (below 12" like this you will not have -1 to hit).
-I would swap the DLs for DCs on all your vehicles.
-A cult detachment can be also nice for T1 charge with Reavers.
-Or you can try to field a Coven for shooting characters and d3 mortal wounds on that Yvraine. She's the only one who can make them shoot twice.

Forewarning states that you have to be in LoS of the Farseer. You might try to put yourself behind a LoS blocking buildings.


A lot of that is thrown out the window when he counter spells your counterspell.  Because you just KNOW this guy is going blackheart Eldar soup (which makes no sense lore-wise!  Please tell me I'm wrong here and he can't do this)
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PostSubject: Re: How do you counter Dark Reapers?    Mon Apr 02 2018, 18:59

Opponent can also use a blackheart detachment, but those black reapers will probably be open for a first turn reaver charge, or they have to focus on the reavers, leaving your ravagers alone. Deepstriking your ravagers in your turn, also ensures that you are able to shoot him with fresh units.

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Tom090
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PostSubject: Re: How do you counter Dark Reapers?    Mon Apr 02 2018, 19:46

Thanks for the advice Alezya

At the moment we play on a board without too much LOS blocking terrain. Which definitely favours him! we've all got some in the post though so it will probably be viable to drop out of LOS of the Farseer.

I like the look of the disintergrator cannons! But I fear that might leave me without the AT to deal with the Wave Serpents (they are a bitch to kill already). That's a great strategem! It's a bit pricey but that could really ruin his day. What do you think the disintergrator cannons are most effective on? Raiders, Ravagers or Razorwings?

Thanks for the help!
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PostSubject: Re: How do you counter Dark Reapers?    Mon Apr 02 2018, 19:50

I don't think he is going to go for a Dark Eldar detachment. He doesn't really like the models and we wanted some diversity between the armies we play. That's why I'm not going to take Ynarri... That and It feels a bit cheap. Do you guys recommend a big unit of Jet bikes so they have a bit more survivability? They are already pretty tough if I Hyper Stim. Is it worth the points for a few more?
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PostSubject: Re: How do you counter Dark Reapers?    Mon Apr 02 2018, 21:08

@Tom090 wrote:
I don't think he is going to go for a Dark Eldar detachment. He doesn't really like the models and we wanted some diversity between the armies we play. That's why I'm not going to take Ynarri... That and It feels a bit cheap. Do you guys recommend a big unit of Jet bikes so they have a bit more survivability? They are already pretty tough if I Hyper Stim. Is it worth the points for a few more?

Dark Lance for armor, Disintegrator for elites is the rule of thumb. Dis got cheaper and the stats on it got better so you might be better off with it for light tanks now.

Bikes were always good, they were just WAY too expensive. Now they are even better and WAY cheaper. So ya, I'm going crazy with those guys as well.

As for the other units you said.... Are you sure his army is legal? The points were not adding up. I'm not a big Eldar player so I don't know. But when I was building it, it didn't add up for me.
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PostSubject: Re: How do you counter Dark Reapers?    Mon Apr 02 2018, 21:09

@sethlight wrote:


A lot of that is thrown out the window when he counter spells your counterspell.  Because you just KNOW this guy is going blackheart Eldar soup (which makes no sense lore-wise!  Please tell me I'm wrong here and he can't do this)

Vs a player who plays this kind a list (really, it is a no limit type list), I put all the lore aside and just destroy (at least try to) my opponent with everything I can have.
Too bad I don't have a black hole somewhere lol!

@Tom090 wrote:
Thanks for the advice Alezya

At the moment we play on a board without too much LOS blocking terrain. Which definitely favours him! we've all got some in the post though so it will probably be viable to drop out of LOS of the Farseer.

I like the look of the disintergrator cannons! But I fear that might leave me without the AT to deal with the Wave Serpents (they are a bitch to kill already). That's a great strategem! It's a bit pricey but that could really ruin his day. What do you think the disintergrator cannons are most effective on? Raiders, Ravagers or Razorwings?

Thanks for the help!

Personally I like too much Ravagers with DLs (old habit). So I would go Dissies on Raiders and razorwings.
Plus: You open the WS with DL Ravagers, DC Raiders and Razorwings open fire upon the DR, and charge the rest. In a perfect world, it would work.

But you should definitely put at least 1-2 LoS blocking terrain on your table. Generally speaking, not specific to this game btw.
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PostSubject: Re: How do you counter Dark Reapers?    Mon Apr 02 2018, 21:46

@Alezya wrote:
[left]

A lot of that is thrown out the window when he counter spells your counterspell.  Because you just KNOW this guy is going blackheart Eldar soup (which makes no sense lore-wise!  Please tell me I'm wrong here and he can't do this)

Vs a player who plays this kind a list (really, it is a no limit type list), I put all the lore aside and just destroy (at least try to) my opponent with everything I can have.
Too bad I don't have a black hole somewhere lol!

[/quote]

So true >.> Some units I'm ok with, maybe the DE stole those weapons or they made their own version. But the second you throw in a warlock or Ynari with a Dark Eldar detachment (especially if they dark heart) you've lost me.

But I blame GW more than I blame the players.

Also, there are some players I just won't play against because they only play cheese with astro.
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Tom090
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PostSubject: Re: How do you counter Dark Reapers?    Mon Apr 02 2018, 22:08

Alezya

You could take the Void mine, that's basically a black hole right?  Sounds like a plan, that buff sounds nice for the DC sethlight. I'll definitely be taking a fair few next game. Where are you guys getting the info from the new codex?
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PostSubject: Re: How do you counter Dark Reapers?    Mon Apr 02 2018, 22:23

Reavers and vects strat to stop the reapers from using fire and fade

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PostSubject: Re: How do you counter Dark Reapers?    Mon Apr 02 2018, 23:03

@Tom090 wrote:
Alezya

You could take the Void mine, that's basically a black hole right?  Sounds like a plan, that buff sounds nice for the DC sethlight. I'll definitely be taking a fair few next game. Where are you guys getting the info from the new codex?

Warhammer community. Also google-fu Very Happy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-9cjx1A2QI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MBJ3ka1tye0
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PostSubject: Re: How do you counter Dark Reapers?    Tue Apr 03 2018, 11:40

I think what Colin said is probably the easiest solution. Breaking a Wave Serpent open takes way too much firepower away from other targets imo.

PS: Our resident Eldar player has started bringing a damn BASTION for his reapers, so remember, things can always get worse haha!

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PostSubject: Re: How do you counter Dark Reapers?    Tue Apr 03 2018, 12:20

Scourges with blasters Deep striking would be a good way to obliterate them, I'm assuming they don't get an invulnerable?

Or a 10 man mandrake squad doing the same thing
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PostSubject: Re: How do you counter Dark Reapers?    Tue Apr 03 2018, 12:21

No double posts please. Use the Edit function. Thanks - Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: How do you counter Dark Reapers?    Tue Apr 03 2018, 13:10

They are definitely getting nerfed in the next FAQ, those damn things were at every top table

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Tom090
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PostSubject: Re: How do you counter Dark Reapers?    Tue Apr 03 2018, 14:51

Yeah I tend to agree, especially with Reavers getting cheaper. Is it legal for him to take a small kabal detachment and vect my vect strategem? I think he's planning to buff them with his farseer etc. so they will be getting invuns. Mandrakes do look tasty though! Glad to know I'm not the only one struggling with them Red Regicide.
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