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 New Disintegrators vs. Dark Lances

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HERO
Wych
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PostSubject: New Disintegrators vs. Dark Lances   Sun Apr 01 2018, 18:22

Let's talk about some of the math here:
http://www.thedarkcity.net/t16256-when-exactly-are-dark-lances-better-than-disintegrators

Now let's factor in our huge cost savings with Dissies and how they might rule the world.

When are Dissies better than Dark Lances? Any Mathcons out there that want to lend a hand with some wound calculations vs. MEQ..etc?
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Gorgon
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PostSubject: Re: New Disintegrators vs. Dark Lances   Sun Apr 01 2018, 20:30

This probably looks messy, but I had a chart done up to see how best to kill my buddy's chaos marines, measured by how many points it takes to kill each unit for a set loadout. It doesn't like fnp much but it's mostly right. Dissie ravagers are great against low T multi wounds


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Hen Tai, the tentacle guy
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PostSubject: Re: New Disintegrators vs. Dark Lances   Sun Apr 01 2018, 20:36

Have you tried to factor in an archon buff?

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HERO
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PostSubject: Re: New Disintegrators vs. Dark Lances   Sun Apr 01 2018, 20:40

@Hen Tai, the tentacle guy wrote:
Have you tried to factor in an archon buff?

I'm also interested in this as well.

We should assuming re-roll 1s to Hit with Archon and without, as well as re-roll 1s to Wound with Living Muse Archon.
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HERO
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PostSubject: Re: New Disintegrators vs. Dark Lances   Sun Apr 01 2018, 20:41

@Gorgon wrote:
This probably looks messy, but I had a chart done up to see how best to kill my buddy's chaos marines, measured by how many points it takes to kill each unit for a set loadout. It doesn't like fnp much but it's mostly right. Dissie ravagers are great against low T multi wounds

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Looking at this again, are you factoring in some kind of kill coefficient or cost analysis in there? I'm not sure I follow the numbers presented.
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Gorgon
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PostSubject: Re: New Disintegrators vs. Dark Lances   Sun Apr 01 2018, 20:54

The way I did it up, it's how many points of a unit loadout it takes to kill one model, like it takes 27 points of kabalites (rifles) to kill one marine, but 84 points of a ravager with dark lances.

The formula is basically cost of unit divided by ( shots * to hit * to wound * save)
Example 5 kabs
30/(10*2/3*1/2*1/3)=27

Thing's like multi damage and mortal wounds are factored in where appropriate

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Gorgon
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PostSubject: Re: New Disintegrators vs. Dark Lances   Sun Apr 01 2018, 20:56

And I can factor in rerolls, but not until I'm at my computer next

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HERO
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PostSubject: Re: New Disintegrators vs. Dark Lances   Mon Apr 02 2018, 08:04

@Gorgon wrote:
The way I did it up, it's how many points of a unit loadout it takes to kill one model, like it takes 27 points of kabalites (rifles) to kill one marine, but 84 points of a ravager with dark lances.

The formula is basically cost of unit divided by ( shots * to hit * to wound * save)
Example 5 kabs
30/(10*2/3*1/2*1/3)=27

Thing's like multi damage and mortal wounds are factored in where appropriate

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... lol

Wouldn't unsaved wounds be a better indicator of damage done for cost? That sounds like an awfully complex way of evaluating a unit.

Did you come up with this yourself?
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: New Disintegrators vs. Dark Lances   Mon Apr 02 2018, 13:18

I wanted to do the math for Blaster vs Discannon, since both are about same cost, is 1 Blaster better than 1 Discannon? And i mean against 3 targets at least, Rhino, Marine, Terminator.

Yes Blasters can Hide, but if i can save points from Blasters, i'd rather just take base Kabals and take more of everything, a True MSU army and have all my units low threat but hugely abundant, i did this for my Harlequins (4 Starweavers, 4 Voidweavers, 3x2 units of Skyweavers) cheap troops and shadowseers in them (I just went either melee or shooting) finally the solitaire.

I beat Storm Raven and lawrence razorback spam lists (tho many people was playing that list i named him b.c he made it more popular) by having over abundance of "crap" aka soft targets that dont die easily and wastes firepower.


I want to know if Blasters or Discannons are better, b.c then i would either spam Raiders+5man or Venoms+blaster.

Its a lot of math for sure, i just saw you guys had formulas (that i dont understand) so it seems to be easier than doing percents 100's of times lol

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Gorgon
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PostSubject: Re: New Disintegrators vs. Dark Lances   Mon Apr 02 2018, 16:48

@HERO wrote:
@Gorgon wrote:
The way I did it up, it's how many points of a unit loadout it takes to kill one model, like it takes 27 points of kabalites (rifles) to kill one marine, but 84 points of a ravager with dark lances.

The formula is basically cost of unit divided by ( shots * to hit * to wound * save)
Example 5 kabs
30/(10*2/3*1/2*1/3)=27

Thing's like multi damage and mortal wounds are factored in where appropriate

Sent from Topic'it App

... lol

Wouldn't unsaved wounds be a better indicator of damage done for cost?  That sounds like an awfully complex way of evaluating a unit.

Did you come up with this yourself?

Yeah I know it's a bit complex. I came up with it after seeing people compare things like two dissies versus three dark lances and which one killed better, because they then cost the same. I just wanted to account for the model(s) that they're attached to as well.

@amishprn86 wrote:
I wanted to do the math for Blaster vs Discannon, since both are about same cost, is 1 Blaster better than 1 Discannon? And i mean against 3 targets at least, Rhino, Marine, Terminator.

Yes Blasters can Hide, but if i can save points from Blasters, i'd rather just take base Kabals and take more of everything, a True MSU army and have all my units low threat but hugely abundant, i did this for my Harlequins (4 Starweavers, 4 Voidweavers, 3x2 units of Skyweavers) cheap troops and shadowseers in them (I just went either melee or shooting) finally the solitaire.

I beat Storm Raven and lawrence razorback spam lists (tho many people was playing that list i named him b.c he made it more popular) by having over abundance of "crap" aka soft targets that dont die easily and wastes firepower.


I want to know if Blasters or Discannons are better, b.c then i would either spam Raiders+5man or Venoms+blaster.

Its a lot of math for sure, i just saw you guys had formulas (that i dont understand) so it seems to be easier than doing percents 100's of times lol

Without displaying the numbers, the blaster is better against rhinos, and the dissie against terminators and marines.
Oddly enough, I also found that the dissie is slightly better than the blaster against Land Raiders and vindicators, and barely worse against forgefiends.
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Gorgon
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PostSubject: Re: New Disintegrators vs. Dark Lances   Mon Apr 02 2018, 18:22

@HERO wrote:
@Hen Tai, the tentacle guy wrote:
Have you tried to factor in an archon buff?

I'm also interested in this as well.

We should assuming re-roll 1s to Hit with Archon and without, as well as re-roll 1s to Wound with Living Muse Archon.

I ran these numbers and in general the efficiency changed to be better but the best option didn't change much. Notably, blasterborn start beating out scourges because of the kabal keyword. Same with the ravager. Blaster scourges only cost 5 pts more than blaster trueborn, and with their mobility and invuln it seems a no brainer, but if the trueborn are on foot with the archon nearby, they're 20% better damage wise with rr to hit, 40% with rr to wound too.

Numbers
Reroll 1's to hit:
 
Reroll 1's to hit and wound:
 
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