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Lord Asvaldir
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PostSubject: Re: HERO's Kabal WIP List Factory   Tue Apr 03 2018, 05:19

Yeah wouldn't we all like that but it's pointless wishing on something that was bound to not even happen anyway.

Sure 8" move is enough to keep up with a small huddle of ravagers, the main point I disagree with is insisting that black heart is the best kabal, because yeah reroll 1s to wound is a very solid aura, but can only effect so much your army, while traits benefit any unit no matter where they are on the board, letting you be more flexible. I don't think black heart is all bad like many of us originally thought last Monday but I'd hardly say it all of a sudden goes to the top just because of this relic.

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PostSubject: Re: HERO's Kabal WIP List Factory   Tue Apr 03 2018, 05:56

@Lord Asvaldir wrote:
Yeah wouldn't we all like that but it's pointless wishing on something that was bound to not even happen anyway.

Sure 8" move is enough to keep up with a small huddle of ravagers, the main point I disagree with is insisting that black heart is the best kabal, because yeah reroll 1s to wound is a very solid aura, but can only effect so much your army, while traits benefit any unit no matter where they are on the board, letting you be more flexible. I don't think black heart is all bad like many of us originally thought last Monday but I'd hardly say it all of a sudden goes to the top just because of this relic.

Sure, that's 1 of the 4 points I made. I'll go play Weds and report back with what I see!

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PostSubject: Re: HERO's Kabal WIP List Factory   Tue Apr 03 2018, 16:34

Looking forward to hearing how it goes, no better test for a list than the tabletop.

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PostSubject: Re: HERO's Kabal WIP List Factory   Tue Apr 03 2018, 17:26

@Lord Asvaldir wrote:
Looking forward to hearing how it goes, no better test for a list than the tabletop.

The biggest difficulty right now is this stupid 6" bubble that I have to manage.  If it becomes too unwieldy and utterly ridiculous, I'll think about dropping Living Muse entirely and switching the army back to Flayed Skull Battalion + Black Heart Spearhead + Black Heart Air Wing.

Quote :
2000 // 8 CP

Flayed Skull Battalion +3 CP

HQ:
Archon, Agonizer, Blaster, PGL = 94
Archon, Agonizer, Blaster, PGL = 94

TROOP:
7x Warriors, Blaster = 59
Raider, Dark Lance = 85
144

10x Warriors, 2x Blaster, Dark Lance = 114
Raider, Dark Lance = 85
199

10x Warriors, 2x Blaster, Dark Lance = 114
Raider, Dark Lance = 85
199

10x Warriors, 2x Blaster, Dark Lance = 114
Raider, Dark Lance = 85
199

10x Warriors, 2x Blaster, Dark Lance = 114
Raider, Dark Lance = 85
199

+++

Black Heart Air Wing +1 CP

HQ:
Archon, Blaster, PGL = 92

HEAVY:
Ravager, 3x Dinsintegrators = 125
Ravager, 3x Dinsintegrators = 125
Ravager, 3x Dinsintegrators = 125

+++

Black Heart Air Wing +1 CP

FLYER:
Razorwing, 2x Dinsintegrators = 135
Razorwing, 2x Dinsintegrators = 135
Razorwing, 2x Dinsintegrators = 135

>>>

Firepower:
15 Disintegrators at BS3+
9 Dark Lances at BS3+
9 Blasters at BS3+
3 Blasters at BS2+
41 Splinter Rifles at BS3+
3 Razorwing Missiles at BS3+

This list here.

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PostSubject: Re: HERO's Kabal WIP List Factory   Tue Apr 03 2018, 19:18

@Lord Asvaldir wrote:
Yeah wouldn't we all like that but it's pointless wishing on something that was bound to not even happen anyway.

Sure 8" move is enough to keep up with a small huddle of ravagers, the main point I disagree with is insisting that black heart is the best kabal, because yeah reroll 1s to wound is a very solid aura, but can only effect so much your army, while traits benefit any unit no matter where they are on the board, letting you be more flexible. I don't think black heart is all bad like many of us originally thought last Monday but I'd hardly say it all of a sudden goes to the top just because of this relic.

It's not just the Relic, it's the best Warlord trait in the book, and one of the best stratagems in the game. The power from pain ability is largely not very significant on the infantry, but it gives your vehicles (and your Sslyth if you brought any) a 6+ ignore wound mechanic.

I guess it sort of makes sense for Archons not to "lower" themselves to using bikes and hellion boards, since those are the provenance of Eldar gangbangers and gladiators. It's a shame mechanically, but let's be honest, we would have all of our Archons on bikes, and it would make for really boring character models.
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PostSubject: Re: HERO's Kabal WIP List Factory   Tue Apr 03 2018, 22:37

Quote :
I guess it sort of makes sense for Archons not to "lower" themselves to using bikes and hellion boards, since those are the provenance of Eldar gangbangers and gladiators.

Except it's not true in the lore. Archons use bikes and skyboards whenever they please.

They also use the fancy, aristocratic and very expensive Scourge wings.

And Haemonculi have anti-grav thrones...

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HERO
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PostSubject: Re: HERO's Kabal WIP List Factory   Wed Apr 04 2018, 07:48

Well, I just got back from my game where I played against Dark Angels. Friend had bikes, Primaris, Hellblasters, some Land Speeders, Primaris Captains, blah blah.

Turn 1 happened, I bubble wrapped and shot. Killed half his army on T1, and we just sat there talking for the rest of the night.

https://imgur.com/a/GfOsl

Lessons learned:
Don't take Primaris or Bikes vs. Dark Eldar ever again.
Bubble wrapping wasn't too hard, but I can see how it can be a pain in the ass once we have to move around. Might not be worth it.

He lives really close so we just left the armies there to try a few things tomorrow night. He thought about a Land Raider. I thought about how I killed one of those without much issue a few nights before.

Yeah.. that's a lot of firepower.

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PostSubject: Re: HERO's Kabal WIP List Factory   Wed Apr 04 2018, 07:56

@HERO wrote:
Well, I just got back from my game where I played against Dark Angels.  Friend had bikes, Primaris, Hellblasters, some Land Speeders, Primaris Captains, blah blah.

Turn 1 happened, I bubble wrapped and shot.  Killed half his army on T1, and we just sat there talking for the rest of the night.


Lessons learned:
Don't take Primaris or Bikes vs. Dark Eldar ever again.
Bubble wrapping wasn't too hard, but I can see how it can be a pain in the ass once we have to move around.  Might not be worth it.

He lives really close so we just left the armies there to try a few things tomorrow night.  He thought about a Land Raider.  I thought about how I killed one of those without much issue a few nights before.

Yeah.. that's a lot of firepower.
Ya I can't see even considering Primaris or bikes vs that list. And land raider... LOL would be even worse.  No offense intended (I offered suggestions after all lol) but its a bit neck beardy, THAT guy in feel.  Honestly either you need to be a horde melee army, able to outrange, or have a fantastic alpha while going first to win vs it I think.  That or some serious cheese, think this is a list I would bring only vs either some 1 really competitive or some 1 I really didn't like lol.  For some beerhammer I think it might be overkill though.
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PostSubject: Re: HERO's Kabal WIP List Factory   Wed Apr 04 2018, 08:24

@GrinNfool wrote:
@HERO wrote:
Well, I just got back from my game where I played against Dark Angels.  Friend had bikes, Primaris, Hellblasters, some Land Speeders, Primaris Captains, blah blah.

Turn 1 happened, I bubble wrapped and shot.  Killed half his army on T1, and we just sat there talking for the rest of the night.


Lessons learned:
Don't take Primaris or Bikes vs. Dark Eldar ever again.
Bubble wrapping wasn't too hard, but I can see how it can be a pain in the ass once we have to move around.  Might not be worth it.

He lives really close so we just left the armies there to try a few things tomorrow night.  He thought about a Land Raider.  I thought about how I killed one of those without much issue a few nights before.

Yeah.. that's a lot of firepower.
Ya I can't see even considering Primaris or bikes vs that list.  And land raider... LOL would be even worse.  No offense intended (I offered suggestions after all lol) but its a bit neck beardy, THAT guy in feel.  Honestly either you need to be a horde melee army, able to outrange, or have a fantastic alpha while going first to win vs it I think.  That or some serious cheese, think this is a list I would bring only vs either some 1 really competitive or some 1 I really didn't like lol.  For some beerhammer I think it might be overkill though.

Well, I would say the desired result is actually what I wanted. The idea of supreme firepower lists like this one that harbors around shooting the living hell out of the opponent with plentiful, accurate, high AP, multi-damage weapons, is to get this exact result.

We'll be trying some new stuff tomorrow.

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PostSubject: Re: HERO's Kabal WIP List Factory   Thu Apr 05 2018, 01:50

Let's take a quick break to talk about Wyches. How many Wyches is most effective while keeping everything else at Kabal level.

List in question:
http://lkhero.blogspot.com/2018/04/de-time-to-try-out-some-wyches.html

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PostSubject: Re: HERO's Kabal WIP List Factory   Thu Apr 05 2018, 02:25

@HERO wrote:
Let's take a quick break to talk about Wyches.  How many Wyches is most effective while keeping everything else at Kabal level.

So, I think it depends on what you want from the wyches.  If you just want a counter charging force to occupy enemy melee, 10-15 in 2 groups should be functional.  If you are expecting to get mileage out of them I think 15 to 20 in 2 to 3 groups more I think is functional but might also eat into what you want to bring from kabal.  IMHO one of the best things about adding in the cults though is giving you access to reavers, strategems, and at 50 points I think the succubus is going to surprise some people, I can't see her not getting her points back very often.  As far as cult type, if you are only running 1 wych squad strife is fine, if more than 1 I would look at red grief or my personal fav currently cursed blade for the +1 str and no morale issues though if bringing reavers I wouldnt go cursed blade.
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PostSubject: Re: HERO's Kabal WIP List Factory   Thu Apr 05 2018, 02:46

The last time I played against dark angels was in 6th edition. That was the only game I’ve ever played where I apologized to my opponent. I honestly felt bad about how I took his army completely apart.

I’m going to give your ideas here a go in a few games. The army looks pretty good.

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PostSubject: Re: HERO's Kabal WIP List Factory   Thu Apr 05 2018, 02:51

1-2 squads of 10 in raiders. One unit gets +1A, the other +1S. Led by Lilith or a Succubus with +2 Movement.

I see the utility of a large squad, but they are a tempting target (do a lot of damage but can't take it), and need some time to cross the board on foot. Webway portal lets them try for a charge, but even with a re-roll that's still a high chance of failure, which leaves them in front of all your opponent's rapid fire guns.

It also irks me that wych weapons are not increased in quantity for squads above 10. Take two Patrols of Cults, one Strife for the Wyches, and one Red Grief for a Tantalus (and reavers). Charge the Tantalus first turn, next turn (if it still lives), everyone disembarks and multi-charges into everything.
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PostSubject: Re: HERO's Kabal WIP List Factory   Thu Apr 05 2018, 07:37

I want to come back and report that I played against the same friend and he bought a LR, Darkshroud, a few more Hellblasters and some other stuff by removing some of the bikes.  I went first again and killed a thousand points of units including the DS, LR and Hellblasters in my first turn of shooting.  This was with the Wych list as well.  I said F it, let's restart, this time you go first, I still won pretty heavily by T3.

It's not like he played crappy either, and I had to waste an entire turn of shooting in the second game vs. the Darkhroud because of the -1 and Jink.  I did find the Succubus w/ Blood Dancer and the Whip to be absolutely insane.  9 attacks hitting on 2s with re-roll 1s, I got 14 hits due to Blood Dancer that turned into 8 wounds by itself.  Of course he saved like a boss on his SS Terminators, but it was absolutely glorious to see.  If she was fighting any other normal infantry unit, she would have have murdered so hard.  She's only 64 points!  That's the crazy part..

Speaking of Tantalus, I'm not going to lie.. I've been eyeing it pretty damn hard.  I think if I'm taking Wyches or something, it can be absolutely fantastic.  Make it Black Heart for the 6+++ and make it a party bus for your Succubus and girls.

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PostSubject: Re: HERO's Kabal WIP List Factory   Thu Apr 05 2018, 08:11

While I don't have the codex in hand, I think I've read that the Tryptich is a Red Grief artefact? If so, it - understandably - wouldn't be available to a Strife Succubus (and thus not stack with Blood Dancer).
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PostSubject: Re: HERO's Kabal WIP List Factory   Thu Apr 05 2018, 08:12

@DingK wrote:
While I don't have the codex in hand, I think I've read that the Tryptich is a Red Grief artefact? If so, it - understandably - wouldn't be available to a Strife Succubus (and thus not stack with Blood Dancer).

No, the +3 attack Agonizer is a generic one. The Red Grief artifact is the Blood Glaive (+3S, -3 AP, D3 damage, no -1 modifier Archite Glaive).

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PostSubject: Re: HERO's Kabal WIP List Factory   Thu Apr 05 2018, 08:15

I stand corrected!
I would hazard to say that the Whip appears to be the best universal artefact for a Succubus. Stack it with Obsession traits and Drugs for more attacks and/or more strength.
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PostSubject: Re: HERO's Kabal WIP List Factory   Fri Apr 06 2018, 23:47

Going to mold the list and add a Battalion of Wych Cult.

Here's what I'm thinking:
2x Succubus
3x Min Wyches (add a few more bodies for the Succubus bus)
Purchase rides from Black Heart Kabal of course

If I'm taking Wyches anyway, I think doubling up is not only better, but this is a great cheap way to get 3 more CP.

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PostSubject: Re: HERO's Kabal WIP List Factory   Fri Apr 06 2018, 23:58

Here is the list that's currently WIP.  Feedback welcome of course.

Quote :
1970 // 10 CP
Black Heart Battalion +3 CP

HQ:
Archon, Agonizer, Blaster = 91
Archon, Agonizer, Blaster = 91

TROOP:
10x Warriors, 2x Blaster, Dark Lance = 114
Raider, Dark Lance = 85
199

10x Warriors, 2x Blaster, Dark Lance = 114
Raider, Dark Lance = 85
199

10x Warriors, 2x Blaster, Dark Lance = 114
Raider, Dark Lance = 85
199

PARTY BUS:
Raider, Dark Lance = 85
Raider, Dark Lance = 85

FLYER:
Razorwing, 2x Dinsintegrators = 135
Razorwing, 2x Dinsintegrators = 135

+++

Strife Battalion +3 CP

HQ:
Succubus, Whip = 54
Succubus, Agonizer = 54

TROOP:
5x Wyches, Agonizer, BP, Shardnet = 59
5x Wyches, Agonizer, BP, Shardnet = 59
5x Wyches, Agonizer, BP, Shardnet = 59

+++

Black Heart Spearhead +1 CP

HQ:
Archon, Agonizer, Blaster = 91

HEAVY:
Ravager, 3x Dinsintegrators = 125
Ravager, 3x Dinsintegrators = 125
Ravager, 3x Dinsintegrators = 125

>>>

Firepower:
13 Disintegrators at BS3+
8 Dark Lances at BS3+
6 Blasters at BS3+
3 Blasters at BS2+
3 Blast Pistols at BS3+
2 Razorwing Missiles at BS3+
25 Splinter Rifles at BS3+

2x5 Wyches go into a single Raider to double up on BP shots and what not.
All the HQ go into the second Raider for deployment purposes, but the Succubus stay in there while the Archons can do whatever else.

3 Archons and 2 Succubus go into a Raider.  This is how naughty videoes are born.

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Lord Asvaldir
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PostSubject: Re: HERO's Kabal WIP List Factory   Sat Apr 07 2018, 00:08

Are you taking a black heart battalion just because you want to stick with the theme of one kabal? If that's the case totally get it, that's how I want to keep my army setup. If that's not the case though I don't see why you're running a black heart battalion, because of the spearhead you can get access to the warlord trait/stratagem/relic there.

Not a huge fan of the all minimum size wych units, I feel like assault units are better when they are at least 10 strong. On the other hand, 10cp is pretty awesome, so I see why you're taking the small units.

Overall looks like a solid list I think. I like that you struck a balance between disintegrator cannons and dark lances, I think the direction some lists are going with stripping all the dark lances out of the army is the wrong way to go.

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PostSubject: Re: HERO's Kabal WIP List Factory   Sat Apr 07 2018, 00:12

@Lord Asvaldir wrote:
Are you taking a black heart battalion just because you want to stick with the theme of one kabal? If that's the case totally get it, that's how I want to keep my army setup. If that's not the case though I don't see why you're running a black heart battalion, because of the spearhead you can get access to the warlord trait/stratagem/relic there.

Not a huge fan of the all minimum size wych units, I feel like assault units are better when they are at least 10 strong. On the other hand, 10cp is pretty awesome, so I see why you're taking the small units.

Overall looks like a solid list I think. I like that you struck a balance between disintegrator cannons and dark lances, I think the direction some lists are going with stripping all the dark lances out of the army is the wrong way to go.

You see, I'm not a fan of the small units too but here are some important highlights:
> Min Wych units are actually not bad because you get to double-up on Agonizers and Blast Pistols.  The unit is literally incapable of doing large amounts of damage, so you might well give it something that can.
> You get double procs of Cannot Escape with more Shardnets, but it's not like it matters.
> You can take more Troops for the points, and they can dogpile into the same Raider.
> There is no real benefit of taking 10 Wyches vs. 5, except for more bodies during Overwatch.  That's what the Raider is for though (just charge that in first).

I'd say overall, Wyches are the one combat unit I might see in a MSU.  Honestly, the HQs are the ones doing most of the heavy lift.  Everything else is just fluff.

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PostSubject: Re: HERO's Kabal WIP List Factory   Sat Apr 07 2018, 00:22

Not sure I agree with that. Depending on the obsessions/drugs you're throwing on a wych suad, they can be 3 attacks s5, or 5 attacks s4 on the charge. Now that's not necessarily spectacular with no ap value, but a unit of 10 gets 3 special weapons while a 5 man unit gets 1, so you're stacking in more special weapons at 10 strong. Plus yeah technically you could tie up more units with more shardnets but at the same time a 5 man unit just might not survive that long to tie things up. I think it somewhat comes down to the matchup you're facing, and whether you have to deal with half decent assault units or not.

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PostSubject: Re: HERO's Kabal WIP List Factory   Sat Apr 07 2018, 00:35

@Lord Asvaldir wrote:
Not sure I agree with that. Depending on the obsessions/drugs you're throwing on a wych suad, they can be 3 attacks s5, or 5 attacks s4 on the charge. Now that's not necessarily spectacular with no ap value, but a unit of 10 gets 3 special weapons while a 5 man unit gets 1, so you're stacking in more special weapons at 10 strong. Plus yeah technically you could tie up more units with more shardnets but at the same time a 5 man unit just might not survive that long to tie things up. I think it somewhat comes down to the matchup you're facing, and whether you have to deal with half decent assault units or not.

Right, so here's the thing:  I could either balance the lists to take:
> 8-man units of Wyches to fit in the HQs, which is prob something easy to do, but then take a near naked unit of 5 o run around the back lines and cap/hold points (they do a piss poor job at that so I gotta hide them)
OR
> Take min-sized troops for more Agonizers and Blast Pistols.

Of course, taking a larger unit is better with Obsessions/Drugs.  I think that's painfully obvious.  BUT, if you had to take smaller troops for whatever reason (case in point, my list), you might as well use the extra bodies as whatever, rely on the HQs to do the heavy lifting (which I think they do a much better job), and run 2x5 with more Agnizers/BP.

This is what happens when you start maxing out Wych squads:

Quote :
1980 // 10 CP
Black Heart Battalion +3 CP

HQ:
Archon, Agonizer, Blaster = 91
Archon, Agonizer, Blaster = 91

TROOP:
10x Warriors, 2x Blaster, Dark Lance = 114
Raider, Dark Lance = 85
199

10x Warriors, 2x Blaster, Dark Lance = 114
Raider, Dark Lance = 85
199

10x Warriors, 2x Blaster, Dark Lance = 114
Raider, Dark Lance = 85
199

PARTY BUS:
Raider, Dark Lance = 85
Raider, Dark Lance = 85

FLYER:
Razorwing, 2x Dinsintegrators = 135
Razorwing, 2x Dinsintegrators = 135

+++

Strife Battalion +3 CP

HQ:
Succubus, Adrenalight, Whip = 54
Succubus, Painbringer, Agonizer = 54

TROOP:
8x Wyches, Grave Lotus, Agonizer, BP, Shardnet = 83
8x Wyches, Serpentin, BP, Shardnet = 83
5x Wyches, Hypex = 40

+++

Black Heart Spearhead +1 CP

HQ:
Archon = 72

HEAVY:
Ravager, 3x Dinsintegrators = 125
Ravager, 3x Dinsintegrators = 125
Ravager, 3x Dinsintegrators = 125

>>>

Firepower:
13 Disintegrators at BS3+
8 Dark Lances at BS3+
6 Blasters at BS3+
2 Blasters at BS2+
2 Blast Pistols at BS3
2 Razorwing Missiles at BS3+
25 Splinter Rifles at BS3+

You end up losing an Archon Blaster and a Blast Pistol.  Therefore, your anti-armor threat goes down.

You also lose the 10 points that would have otherwise bought these silly Archons Huskblades.

At the end of the day, there's too much value given to the actual Wyches vs. the HQs and Hekatrixes that are the ones actually driving damage on units that care:  Like vs. single-wound MEQ.

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PostSubject: Re: HERO's Kabal WIP List Factory   Sat Apr 07 2018, 01:52

So @Hero, I was somewhat inspired by your list and came up with something quite similar. It's a list that wants to hit early (preferably turn 1 before your opponent strikes back, if possible), killing off key targets and then using the cult of red grief Reavers to lock up key targets to prevent return fire.

Black heart Spearhead +1 CP
HQ:
Archon, Agoniser
WL Trait: Labrynthine cunning
AOC: Writ of the living muse
Total:74

Heavy:
Ravager x3 Disintegrator cannon
Ravager x3 Disintegrator cannon
Ravager x3 Disintegrator cannon
Total:375
+++

Flayed Skull batallion +3 CP
HQ:
Archon, Agoniser, Blast pistol
Total: 84

Archon, Agoniser, Blaster
Total:91

Troops:
10 Kabalites, x2 Blaster, Dark lance, Disintegrator Raider
Total: 194

10 Kabalites, x2 Blaster, Dark lance, Disintegrator Raider
Total: 194

5 Kabalites Blaster, Disintegrator Raider
Total: 127

5 Kabalites Blaster, Disintegrator Raider
Total: 127

Flyers:
Razorwing Jetfighter, x2 disintegrator cannon
Total:135

Razorwing Jetfighter, x2 disintegrator cannon
Total:135
+++

Cult of red grief outrider +1 CP
HQ:
Succubus, Agoniser, Blast pistol
Total:64

Fast attack:
6 Reavers, x2 Blaster, x2 Grav talon
Total: 154

6 Reavers, x2 Blaster, x2 Grav talon
Total: 154

5 Scourges, x4 Haywire Blaster
Total: 92


Grand total:2000
CP total: 8

Combat Drugs:
Reavers, +1 atk, +1 toughness
Succubus, +2 move

Firepower:
17 Disintegrator cannons at 3+ (9 with rerolls turn 1 hopefully)
10 Blasters at 3+
4 Haywire Blasters at 3+
2 Dark lances at 4+/3+
2 Blast pistols at 2+
1 Blaster at 2+
32 Splinter rifles at 3+
2 Razorwing missiles at 3+
+++

Notes:
BH Archon and Blaster Archon go in one raider (depending if I can deploy close enough to the Ravagers) and the Succubus and other Archon go in the other.

The list wants to Alpha strike hard, shooting as much as possible at key targets and then using the Reavers to first turn charge and tie up whatever will cause me the most damage with return fire. In the case of cc orientated lists or deepstriking lists with low drops they can also be used to screen my tanks, though this is not ideal of course.

I chose to go with lots of Disintegrator cannons over dark lances as I feel that they're more flexible and can pull double duty against horde style armies if required. I also feel that I've compensated well for the lack of lances with the large abundance of Blasters. I also have dedicated anti tank in the form of the Haywire Blaster Scourges and the Reavers will do well tying up non-flying tanks even if only a few make it to combat.

I've considered paying the CP for the extra AOC for the whip on the Sucubus or to give her a WL trait, but as the list isn't extremely high on CP I've decided to hold off as of yet. I'm also not committed to making her an absolute beast in CC because although the list uses some CC, it isn't entirely necessary around it.

I might consider moving a Blaster to the Blackheart Archon, but as it stands I want him to be as far away from the action as possible.

EDIT: Realised I'd named the wrong cult and corrected it.


Last edited by Trueborn44 on Sat Apr 07 2018, 05:01; edited 1 time in total
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Lord Asvaldir
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Join date : 2015-12-06
Location : Washington DC

PostSubject: Re: HERO's Kabal WIP List Factory   Sat Apr 07 2018, 04:37

@Hero: I definetly agree that in your list 8 man wych units aren't at all worth it, you're not unlocking extra special wych weapons so it's definitely a waste. My point was merely that I don't think I'd just write off 10 man wych squads in general as with 3 special weapons they seem to have a reasonable damage output. Plus I'm not sure what the average list you're facing is, but I'd think dissie cannons would be your prime way of dealing with marines, I want to at least try to use wyches for clearing out weaker hordes.

We'll see though what really works out though. It feels weird to be making such assessments before we've even been getting in games with the codex, but fortunetly the game testing begins tomorrow..

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