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colinsherlow
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PostSubject: Re: HERO's Kabal WIP List Factory   Mon Apr 02 2018, 14:06

@withershadow wrote:
I think you swung too far the other way on the lances and now don't have any long-range anti-tank while having too many disintigrators.

The dark lances you did keep are effectively BS4+ since you will be moving your raiders. I would at least leave the lances on the raiders.

Lance's are assault when mounted on a vehicle. Just like disintegrators

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PostSubject: Re: HERO's Kabal WIP List Factory   Mon Apr 02 2018, 14:41

@colinsherlow wrote:
@withershadow wrote:
I think you swung too far the other way on the lances and now don't have any long-range anti-tank while having too many disintigrators.

The dark lances you did keep are effectively BS4+ since you will be moving your raiders. I would at least leave the lances on the raiders.

Lance's are assault when mounted on a vehicle. Just like disintegrators

But those carried by Kabalite Warriors inside the Raiders remain Heavy, so those get -1 To Hit when they move.

Might be better to try find a balance between Dissies and DLs instead of spamming just one of them.
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PostSubject: Re: HERO's Kabal WIP List Factory   Mon Apr 02 2018, 14:57

@withershadow wrote:
I think you swung too far the other way on the lances and now don't have any long-range anti-tank while having too many disintigrators.

The dark lances you did keep are effectively BS4+ since you will be moving your raiders. I would at least leave the lances on the raiders.

What does math say in this respect?

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PostSubject: Re: HERO's Kabal WIP List Factory   Mon Apr 02 2018, 15:11

Math against what? I am just looking at the list and not seeing any long-range anti-tank, so if I were playing my guard, for example, I would put my shooty elements in the back, bubble-wrap them with guardsmen and heavy weapon teams, and just blast away at the papier mache vehicles.

If you must have some math, the current 4 lances (assuming moving each turn, no defensive buffs for targets, and no damage on raiders), it would take you 4 turns on average to kill one Leman Russ.

@colinsherlow wrote:
@withershadow wrote:
I think you swung too far the other way on the lances and now don't have any long-range anti-tank while having too many disintigrators.

The dark lances you did keep are effectively BS4+ since you will be moving your raiders. I would at least leave the lances on the raiders.

Lance's are assault when mounted on a vehicle. Just like disintegrators
Yes, I know, which is why I am recommending putting some dark lances on the vehicles, and not just the 4 warriors inside the raiders.
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PostSubject: Re: HERO's Kabal WIP List Factory   Mon Apr 02 2018, 15:14

I'm seeing 20 Dark Lances. Enough to make any IG player cry Twisted Evil

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PostSubject: Re: HERO's Kabal WIP List Factory   Mon Apr 02 2018, 15:15

You didn't look past the first page, then, there is an updated list a page back.

20 lances would indeed be quite a sight to see for a tank-heavy Imperial Guard army.  Then it was decided that is too much Dark Light, and almost all of them were thrown out in exchange for Disintigrators. Their new cost is appealing, but do you really need that many anti-Primaris/terminator weapons? Because Dissies are still not adequate anti-infantry for dealing with hordes.

I honestly don't think you need many more Disintegrators than the ones on the Ravagers.

3 Black Heart Ravagers with an Archon nearby kill 13 Primaris per turn.
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PostSubject: Re: HERO's Kabal WIP List Factory   Mon Apr 02 2018, 15:26

@withershadow wrote:
You didn't look past the first page, then, there is an updated list a page back.

20 lances would indeed be quite a sight to see for a tank-heavy Imperial Guard army.  Then it was decided that is too much Dark Light, and almost all of them were thrown out in exchange for Disintigrators. Their new cost is appealing, but do you really need that many anti-Primaris/terminator weapons? Because Dissies are still not adequate anti-infantry for dealing with hordes.

I honestly don't think you need many more Disintegrators than the ones on the Ravagers.

3 Black Heart Ravagers with an Archon nearby kill 13 Primaris per turn.

Is that with Writ fo the Living Muse as well? Re-roll 1s to Wound.

I guess at this point, I'm just interested in know what is the best bang for my buck. I wouldn't mind switching to more Dark Lances on the Raider for a healthier ratio.

But what is that ratio? I'm inclined for Dissies on the Razorwings as well so they're not so bi-polar in terms of load-out.

Let's do this: Let's use a Leman Russ as the gold standard for a tank. How many Dark Lances would I need to drop one per turn, while maintaining a healthy balance of Dissies for anti heavy infantry.

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PostSubject: Re: HERO's Kabal WIP List Factory   Mon Apr 02 2018, 15:31

Yes, I counted in the Writ.

Assuming no cover or defensive buffs, and 3+ to hit, you need about 10 lances on average to delete one Leman Russ tank.

12 DMG / 3.5 average dmg / 0.5 wound rate / 0.66 hit rate = 10.39 lances.

If we're counting the dark lances on the warriors first,
4x0.5x0.5x3.5 = 3.5
(12-3.5)/3.5/0.5/0.66 = 7.35

So you would need the 4 warriors and about 7 vehicle-borne Lances to kill a Leman Russ in one turn (again, no cover or buffs on Russ).

Regarding the ratio, I think somewhere between 2-3 to 1 is the sweet spot. So I would start by say, giving all the raiders lances. Then either convert all the razorwings or two of the ravagers to lances too.

This gives you 16 lances and 9 dissies as a starting datapoint.  That's a bit over 17 average wounds to a Leman Russ chassis, which means you can relatively reliably blow on up in one turn even if it has defensive buffs or cover.  And you can still kill the 13 Primaris we mentioned above. I like to hedge my bets since "average dice" really means "50/50".
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PostSubject: Re: HERO's Kabal WIP List Factory   Mon Apr 02 2018, 15:43

@withershadow wrote:
Yes, I counted in the Writ.

Assuming no cover or defensive buffs, and 3+ to hit, you need about 10 lances on average to delete one Leman Russ tank.

12 DMG / 3.5 average dmg / 0.5 wound rate / 0.66 hit rate = 10.39 lances.

If we're counting the dark lances on the warriors first,
4x0.5x0.5x3.5 = 3.5
(12-3.5)/3.5/0.5/0.66 = 7.35

So you would need the 4 warriors and about 7 vehicle-borne Lances to kill a Leman Russ in one turn (again, no cover or buffs on Russ).

Regarding the ratio, I think somewhere between 2-3 to 1 is the sweet spot. So I would start by say, giving all the raiders lances. Then either convert all the razorwings or two of the ravagers to lances too.

This gives you 16 lances and 9 dissies as a starting datapoint.  That's a bit over 17 average wounds to a Leman Russ chassis, which means you can relatively reliably blow on up in one turn even if it has defensive buffs or cover.  And you can still kill the 13 Primaris we mentioned above.  I like to hedge my bets since "average dice" really means "50/50".

Here's what we're looking at now:

Quote :
2000 - 7 CP

Black Heart Battalion - 3 CP

HQ:
Archon, Agonizer, Blaster = 91
Archon, VB, Blaster = 89

TROOP:
5x Warriors, Blaster = 47
Venom = 65
112

5x Warriors, Blaster = 47
Raider, Dark Lance = 85
132

10x Warriors, 2x Blaster, Dark Lance = 114
Raider, Dark Lance = 85
199

10x Warriors, 2x Blaster, Dark Lance = 114
Raider, Dark Lance = 85
199

10x Warriors, 2x Blaster, Dark Lance = 114
Raider, Dark Lance = 85
199

10x Warriors, 2x Blaster, Dark Lance = 114
Raider, Dark Lance = 85
199

HEAVY:
Ravager, 3x Dinsintegrators = 125
Ravager, 3x Dinsintegrators = 125
Ravager, 3x Dinsintegrators = 125

+++

Black Heart Air Wing - 1 CP

FLYER:
Razorwing, 2x Dinsintegrators = 135
Razorwing, 2x Dinsintegrators = 135
Razorwing, 2x Dinsintegrators = 135

>>>

Firepower:
15 Disintegrators at BS3+
9 Dark Lances at BS3+
10 Blasters at BS3+
2 Blasters at BS2+
1 Splinter Cannon at BS3+
44 Splinter Rifles at BS3+
3 Razorwing Missiles at BS3+

Out of curiosity, how many Dissies need to fire on a Russ to kill it vs. Lances?  My OCD isn't allowing me to take that solo floating Venom, but in my mind I'm trying to justify it by saying that's the "scout".

The command Raider makes sense though.  I can justify that with fluff and theme, and also that Warlord having the Agonizer over the other poor Archon without one Very Happy

Anyone else finding it utterly hilarious that we went from Flayed Skull being the best to a bubble-wrapped Black Heart Archon being the best in terms of overall damage increase for our Kabal-centric armies?

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PostSubject: Re: HERO's Kabal WIP List Factory   Mon Apr 02 2018, 16:11

I messed up a bunch on my math, disregard
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PostSubject: Re: HERO's Kabal WIP List Factory   Mon Apr 02 2018, 16:18

Doomseer helps a lot! Haha! And so would jinx

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PostSubject: Re: HERO's Kabal WIP List Factory   Mon Apr 02 2018, 16:27

@colinsherlow wrote:
Doomseer helps a lot! Haha! And so would jinx

I know.. next list is going to try to supplement some stuff with an Alaitoc detachment with Hemlocks, Doomseer and a Ranger unit to hold the back lines.

However, I'm 100% determined to try pure DE for at least the first couple of games.  I already know Eldar has good stuff. I'm going to see if DE can hold its own with sheer firepower without Psychic support.

Doom with Dissies are my #1 priority too. No need to tell me, I've sold my soul (if I had one) a long time ago.

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PostSubject: Re: HERO's Kabal WIP List Factory   Mon Apr 02 2018, 16:28

@HERO wrote:
Out of curiosity, how many Dissies need to fire on a Russ to kill it vs. Lances?  My OCD isn't allowing me to take that solo floating Venom, but in my mind I'm trying to justify it by saying that's the "scout".

The command Raider makes sense though.  I can justify that with fluff and theme, and also that Warlord having the Agonizer over the other poor Archon without one Very Happy

Anyone else finding it utterly hilarious that we went from Flayed Skull being the best to a bubble-wrapped Black Heart Archon being the best in terms of overall damage increase for our Kabal-centric armies?
I don't think the last point is accurate. Flayed Skull still provides the most damage for the traditional raider-borne list.  If you're going on foot, the extra range of Obsidian Rose I think is better than a re-roll 1s to wound relic aura.

I honestly thing the "best" option will be to utilize the Patrol detachment bonuses. So a patrol detachment of Black Heart Archon, single venom squad of warriors, and all your Ravagers. Then two patrol detachments of Flayed Skull for all your transported warriors.

Or hell, you could go all out and take three different Kabals.

Black Heart Archon buffing Ravagers, Obsidian Rose Archon buffing bubble-wrap/objective-holding Warrior squads, and Flayed Skull leading the way in the Raiders.

Regarding the Disintegrator math vs. Leman Russ, this was actually pretty fun math. 11 Dissies do just enough to kill a Leman Russ. If you keep an archon with the Writ back with the Disintegrator Ravagers, they actually deal 13.36 wounds to a leman russ, so can account for one by themselves. Then the raider/warrior-borne Lances can take out another one.

So with that re-assessment, I would say 50/50 split or even a slight Disintegrator bias may not be a bad thing after all. I would try your latest version of the list as is, and report back!
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PostSubject: Re: HERO's Kabal WIP List Factory   Mon Apr 02 2018, 16:46

@HERO wrote:
@colinsherlow wrote:
Doomseer helps a lot! Haha! And so would jinx



Doom with Dissies are my #1 priority too.  No need to tell me, I've sold my soul (if I had one) a long time ago.

I am a ginger! I don't know what having a soul feels like. I just steal them and add them to my freckle collection

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PostSubject: Re: HERO's Kabal WIP List Factory   Mon Apr 02 2018, 16:52

@colinsherlow wrote:
@HERO wrote:
@colinsherlow wrote:
Doomseer helps a lot! Haha! And so would jinx



Doom with Dissies are my #1 priority too.  No need to tell me, I've sold my soul (if I had one) a long time ago.

I am a ginger! I don't know what having a soul feels like. I just steal them and add them to my freckle collection
You jest, but just yesterday we were discussing that the reason GW studio paints so many of the Wyches as gingers is because they don't have souls.

I haven't yet fully fleshed out my intended painting scheme (likely going to be the color-shift blue for the armor with a red trim for Dying Sun), but now I am really tempted to paint them all as gingers complete with freckles.



That is WAY more terrifying than any Hellraiser-style Archon.
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PostSubject: Re: HERO's Kabal WIP List Factory   Mon Apr 02 2018, 17:17

@HERO wrote:

Here's what we're looking at now:

Quote :
2000 - 7 CP

Black Heart Battalion - 3 CP

HQ:
Archon, Agonizer, Blaster = 91
Archon, VB, Blaster = 89

TROOP:
5x Warriors, Blaster = 47
Venom = 65
112

5x Warriors, Blaster = 47
Raider, Dark Lance = 85
132

10x Warriors, 2x Blaster, Dark Lance = 114
Raider, Dark Lance = 85
199

10x Warriors, 2x Blaster, Dark Lance = 114
Raider, Dark Lance = 85
199

10x Warriors, 2x Blaster, Dark Lance = 114
Raider, Dark Lance = 85
199

10x Warriors, 2x Blaster, Dark Lance = 114
Raider, Dark Lance = 85
199

HEAVY:
Ravager, 3x Dinsintegrators = 125
Ravager, 3x Dinsintegrators = 125
Ravager, 3x Dinsintegrators = 125

+++

Black Heart Air Wing - 1 CP

FLYER:
Razorwing, 2x Dinsintegrators = 135
Razorwing, 2x Dinsintegrators = 135
Razorwing, 2x Dinsintegrators = 135

>>>

Firepower:
15 Disintegrators at BS3+
9 Dark Lances at BS3+
10 Blasters at BS3+
2 Blasters at BS2+
1 Splinter Cannon at BS3+
44 Splinter Rifles at BS3+
3 Razorwing Missiles at BS3+

I am kinda worried: Generally, Ravagers are always the main targets on first turn. Specially when Raiders are not fitted for CC (understand: CC units inside).
So you Dissies Ravagers will get shot at pretty fast, and probably will go down pretty fast, losing your Dissies...
I would mix/swap the weaponry between the Raiders and Ravagers I think. OR as you can now choose your target as you wish, maybe put 1DL/2DC or 1DC/2DL?
Keeping Dissies on Razorwing is fine.
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PostSubject: Re: HERO's Kabal WIP List Factory   Mon Apr 02 2018, 18:50

@withershadow wrote:
@HERO wrote:
Out of curiosity, how many Dissies need to fire on a Russ to kill it vs. Lances?  My OCD isn't allowing me to take that solo floating Venom, but in my mind I'm trying to justify it by saying that's the "scout".

The command Raider makes sense though.  I can justify that with fluff and theme, and also that Warlord having the Agonizer over the other poor Archon without one Very Happy

Anyone else finding it utterly hilarious that we went from Flayed Skull being the best to a bubble-wrapped Black Heart Archon being the best in terms of overall damage increase for our Kabal-centric armies?
I don't think the last point is accurate. Flayed Skull still provides the most damage for the traditional raider-borne list.  If you're going on foot, the extra range of Obsidian Rose I think is better than a re-roll 1s to wound relic aura.

I honestly thing the "best" option will be to utilize the Patrol detachment bonuses. So a patrol detachment of Black Heart Archon, single venom squad of warriors, and all your Ravagers. Then two patrol detachments of Flayed Skull for all your transported warriors.

Or hell, you could go all out and take three different Kabals.

Black Heart Archon buffing Ravagers, Obsidian Rose Archon buffing bubble-wrap/objective-holding Warrior squads, and Flayed Skull leading the way in the Raiders.

Regarding the Disintegrator math vs. Leman Russ, this was actually pretty fun math. 11 Dissies do just enough to kill a Leman Russ. If you keep an archon with the Writ back with the Disintegrator Ravagers, they actually deal 13.36 wounds to a leman russ, so can account for one by themselves.  Then the raider/warrior-borne Lances can take out another one.

So with that re-assessment, I would say 50/50 split or even a slight Disintegrator bias may not be a bad thing after all. I would try your latest version of the list as is, and report back!  

Well, the idea of going pure Black Heart is for Living Muse. If the Archon allows re-roll wounds for only BLACK HEART Kabal units, then I'm inclined to just do that. Damage wise, we need every bonus that we can get if we're going to not take things like Doom or Jinx.

Thoughts? I could just make things Flayed Skull and take detachments (see earlier pages), but the logic here is to drive as much interaction with our Warlord as much as possible.

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PostSubject: Re: HERO's Kabal WIP List Factory   Mon Apr 02 2018, 19:49

Are you planning on having your whole army within 6" of ONE Archon, since only one can take that relic?

I think keeping three ravagers and maybe an on-foot bubble-wrap warrior squad within his aura is already a pretty great utilization of his rule.

I also want to try deep striking a Poisoned Tongue 20-man unit of Warriors with 4 shredders and 2 splinter cannons. I'd probably pair this with a pair of Archons in Venoms with 4 Sslyth each (new AoS models make this very easy). One Archon hangs back with the Warriors, the other forms a melee unit of death with the Sslyth.
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PostSubject: Re: HERO's Kabal WIP List Factory   Mon Apr 02 2018, 21:37

In short, yes. If that results in greater damage potential and I can save on further archons tax and get more detachments. If I can fit all my crap into 6" to farm that bonus, I can make it work. This includes flying backwards and measuring from the absolute tip of my shock prow.

Remember the goal here. We are looking to maximize the wiki t of damage we can inflict so we can keep our list pure dark eldar. Or else I will seek eldar allies and I don't want to be like that.

I'm thinking right now, black heart with muse is such a huge damage modifier that it overrides flayed skull bonuses.

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PostSubject: Re: HERO's Kabal WIP List Factory   Mon Apr 02 2018, 21:45

The last list looks fine to me, I mean there are tweaks I would make but I think its more personal preference at this stage.  You are kinda at the To Taste part of the list now.  

To chime in on what some 1 else said about patrols and mixing different Kabals, I actually think there will be something to that.  I have been messing with that exact idea in quite a few of my early test lists.  I like the idea of running raiders and ravs from black heart, the 6+++ is better than anything for those units, and everything else from Obsidian.  I generally find I do the best with DE when I can whittle the opponent down while PFP builds up and turn 3 go in for the kill, with 2+ melee etc.  Obsidian helps keep spacing, before I go for the kill. I got alot of melee lists to deal with in the group I am usually playing in.
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PostSubject: Re: HERO's Kabal WIP List Factory   Mon Apr 02 2018, 22:04

The more I think about it, the more I see the Dissies and Lances as the staple to our lists to take care of serious threats before more meat-filled fun comes within Poison range.  This is why I'm more meh with Flayed Skull than before.  I actually think Black Heart might be the best for that kind of play because it keeps those Dissies and Lances in play more.  This also means more time Warriors won't be exposed to harm and you can use that time gained to postpone the time they spent exposed to morale events or what not.

The longer you can farm the 6" bubble from the Black Heart Archon and keep his ass alive, the more value your list becomes.  This is why Flayed Skull is good, but not as good as Black Heart is for me now.

I'm going to roll with the last list, play it out and see how well it goes.  While mixing and matchking different Kabals and detachments might be a thing, I don't think it gives me as power as a pure Black Heart force that can actively farm off living muse's bonus.

The fact of the matter is, we wouldn't even be having this discussion if he had more movement abilities or mounted command bonuses for our HQs but we don't. Since they want our dudes on their feet with some stupid 6" range restriction, our lists might end up looking kinda stupid sometimes thematically.

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PostSubject: Re: HERO's Kabal WIP List Factory   Tue Apr 03 2018, 00:10

I don't think your plan is feasible, to have something like a dozen vehicles clustered around 1 guy.
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PostSubject: Re: HERO's Kabal WIP List Factory   Tue Apr 03 2018, 01:01

Yeah I agree, I don't think it's a reasonable assumption at all that you can cramp more than say 3-4 vehicles around one 6" bubble of a character. If you're playing on any sort of board with LoS blocking terrain you're going to have serious issues hitting your primary targets, and bunching up so much of your army in one little area makes you vulnerable to several abilities like deep striking, getting cornered in melee etc. Sure maybe you have a nice little bubble wrap around your ravagers, but one whole in the shield and it might ruin your plan. Especially since dark eldar are meant to be mobile seems like you're giving that up a bit.

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PostSubject: Re: HERO's Kabal WIP List Factory   Tue Apr 03 2018, 01:08

@withershadow wrote:
I don't think your plan is feasible, to have something like a dozen vehicles clustered around 1 guy.  

Not literally dude. As many as I can fit, and then have the rest be around the other Archon. You want to be taking as many boats as you can around him so you can receive the benefit.

As for Black Heart, the more I think about it, the more I think this might be the overall best Kabal. Here is my reasoning:
-The bonus literally affects everything, from flesh to metal, right from the get-go to the rest of the game.
-You don't need additional Archon tax to access the best strategems, Warlord traits and artifacts that we have. That Archon tax can now be used to buy an extra Venom with Warriors for example.
-With the improvement to our weapons, our damage certainly went up for the points. However, one thing remains unchanged and that's our durability (from the Kabal side). Spirit Stones on everything will help keep our important pieces alive longer so we don't attrition as hard.
-The Living Muse artifact makes that one Archon the single biggest damage amplifier in the codex. It affects every weapon type.

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PostSubject: Re: HERO's Kabal WIP List Factory   Tue Apr 03 2018, 01:10

@Lord Asvaldir wrote:
Yeah I agree, I don't think it's a reasonable assumption at all that you can cramp more than say 3-4 vehicles around one 6" bubble of a character. If you're playing on any sort of board with LoS blocking terrain you're going to have serious issues hitting your primary targets, and bunching up so much of your army in one little area makes you vulnerable to several abilities like deep striking, getting cornered in melee etc. Sure maybe you have a nice little bubble wrap around your ravagers, but one whole in the shield and it might ruin your plan. Especially since dark eldar are meant to be mobile seems like you're giving that up a bit.

Yeah?  Blame that on the stupidity that is GW for limiting on Archons to walk to provide their command bubble.  I would give my left nut for a Reaver bike.

For now, they move 8" and run and gun with a Blaster.  That should be OK enough to provide a 6" bubble as long as I can range in and shoot.  My army is long-ranged and that's acceptable for the first couple of rounds of engagement.

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THE DARK CITY :: 

COMMORRAGH TACTICA

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