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 HERO's Kabal WIP List Factory

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Martyr
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PostSubject: Re: HERO's Kabal WIP List Factory   Tue Apr 17 2018, 23:30

Or we take Meduses instead of Lhameans? For massive shooting
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HERO
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PostSubject: Re: HERO's Kabal WIP List Factory   Wed Apr 18 2018, 15:01

@Melkor wrote:
@DingWop wrote:
Can you explain the logic behind the 7 kab unit under black heart rather than the rose detachment?  Is it because they are with three melee HQ's and you want the advanced round PFP rules rather than the re-roll for hits from the rose archons?  I assume they will be hanging out the rose archons rather than the black heart archon babysitting the ravagers in the back.  

I believe he wants to unlock another Black Heart Raider.

Bingo. And less drops and a place to ride for when I need it. Gives my obsidian rose archons a good shooting platform if I don't need them to be aura monkeys.

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DingWop
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PostSubject: Re: HERO's Kabal WIP List Factory   Thu Apr 19 2018, 16:06

What do you think about putting cannons on the raiders instead of lances so that you could aethersail followed by fire and fade. With a cannon you can shoot (-1BS) and move the raider 29" if needed.
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HERO
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PostSubject: Re: HERO's Kabal WIP List Factory   Thu Apr 19 2018, 21:32

@DingWop wrote:
What do you think about putting cannons on the raiders instead of lances so that you could aethersail followed by fire and fade.  With a cannon you can shoot (-1BS) and move the raider 29" if needed.      

That's not a bad idea, but right now I'm using Raiders with lances (firepower balance) and my approach is normally more cautious.  Otherwise, I would go with Flayed Skull and do what you're proposing above.

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teriba1
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PostSubject: Re: HERO's Kabal WIP List Factory   Sun Apr 22 2018, 15:24

So many mistakes with this list its amazing, have no idea why this list gets so much focus.
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HERO
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PostSubject: Re: HERO's Kabal WIP List Factory   Mon Apr 23 2018, 18:09

@teriba1 wrote:
So many mistakes with this list its amazing, have no idea why this list gets so much focus.

lol, what?

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teriba1
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PostSubject: Re: HERO's Kabal WIP List Factory   Tue Apr 24 2018, 11:09

@HERO wrote:
@teriba1 wrote:
So many mistakes with this list its amazing, have no idea why this list gets so much focus.

lol, what?

Archons cant have blasters
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merse24
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PostSubject: Re: HERO's Kabal WIP List Factory   Tue Apr 24 2018, 15:12

The list gets a lot of focus in large part because of the thought process behind them that Hero discusses in his blog. I strongly suggest you read it. It is a good resource in using this new codex.

And yes, Archons CAN have blasters. Read through a few threads on the site, there is a flow chart that GW has issued that clearly indicates that if an Index option is no longer available as an option in the Codex, you are still allowed to take them.
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DingK
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PostSubject: Re: HERO's Kabal WIP List Factory   Tue Apr 24 2018, 15:40

@teriba1 wrote:
@HERO wrote:
@teriba1 wrote:
So many mistakes with this list its amazing, have no idea why this list gets so much focus.

lol, what?

Archons cant have blasters

"So many mistakes". Points out one, which is at least debatable.

Please, if HERO has made mistakes in his list - other than Blaster Archons - post them, so we can all learn something.
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ArchonYllithian
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PostSubject: Re: HERO's Kabal WIP List Factory   Tue Apr 24 2018, 15:41

@teriba1 wrote:
@HERO wrote:
@teriba1 wrote:
So many mistakes with this list its amazing, have no idea why this list gets so much focus.

lol, what?

Archons cant have blasters
You can, according to the index. It's been referred to a dozen times already
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HERO
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PostSubject: Re: HERO's Kabal WIP List Factory   Tue Apr 24 2018, 17:23

@merse24 wrote:
The list gets a lot of focus in large part because of the thought process behind them that Hero discusses in his blog.  I strongly suggest you read it.  It is a good resource in using this new codex.

And yes, Archons CAN have blasters.  Read through a few threads  on the site, there is a flow chart that GW has issued that clearly indicates that if an Index option is no longer available as an option in the Codex, you are still allowed to take them.

Yeah, it's pretty much my journey towards my first impressions of the Codex to now..

Here are some topics this thread explores:
> balancing dissies vs. dark lances
> taking Dark Lances on Warriors
> converting from flayed skull to black heart
> black heart airwing to unlock AoV
> min-maxing different detachments to spread obsession bonuses (Black Rose)
> trying min-squad vs. decent squad Wyches in Raiders
> what my lists look like after the big FAQ
...etc

Of course, all of this is discussed much more in-depth on my blog, but what I had originally looks very differently compared to what I have now.

Let's go back a few weeks shall we?

My first list:
Quote :
1998 - 7 CP
Flayed Skull Battalion - 3 CP

HQ:
Archon, Agonizer, Blaster = 91
Archon, Agonizer, Blaster = 91

TROOP:
5x Warriors, Blaster = 47
Venom, 2x SC = 75
122

5x Warriors, Blaster = 47
Venom, 2x SC = 75
122

10x Warriors, 2x Blaster, Dark Lance = 114
Raider, Splinter Racks, Dark Lance = 95
209

10x Warriors, 2x Blaster, Dark Lance = 114
Raider, Splinter Racks, Dark Lance = 95
209

10x Warriors, 2x Blaster, Dark Lance = 114
Raider, Splinter Racks, Dark Lance = 95
209

FLYER:
Razorwing, 2x Dark Lances = 145
Razorwing, 2x Dark Lances = 145

+++

Black Heart Spearhead - 1 CP

HQ:
Archon, Agonizer, Blaster = 91
Warlord: Labyrinthine Cunning
Artifact: Writ of Living Muse

TROOP:
7x Warriors, Blaster = 59
Raider, Dark Lance = 85
144

HEAVY:
Ravager, 3x Dark Lances = 140
Ravager, 3x Dark Lances = 140
Ravager, 3x Dark Lances = 140

>>>

Firepower Analysis:
20 Dark Lances at BS3+
9 Blasters at BS3+
3 Blasters at BS2+
4 Splinter Cannons at BS3+
21 Splinter Rifles at BS3+ with Flayed Skull + Splinter Racks
19 Splinter Rifles at BS3+ elsewhere
2 Razorwing Missiles at BS3+

My current list:
Quote :
Kabal of the Black Rose
1999 // 10 CP

Obsidian Rose Bat +5 CP

HQ:
Archon, Agonizer, Blaster, PGL = 94
Archon, Agonizer, Blaster, PGL = 94

TROOP:
10x Warriors, 2x Blaster, SC = 104
10x Warriors, 2x Blaster, SC = 104
10x Warriors, 2x Blaster, SC = 104
10x Warriors, 2x Blaster, SC = 104

+++

Black Heart Spear +1 CP

HQ:
Archon, Agonizer, Blaster = 91
Warlord: Cunning, Living Muse

TROOP:
7x Warriors, Blaster, BP = 69

PARTY BUS:
Raider, Dark Lance = 85
Raider, Dark Lance = 85
Raider, Dark Lance = 85
Raider, Dark Lance = 85
Raider, Dark Lance = 85

HEAVY:
Ravager, 3x Dissies = 125
Ravager, 3x Dissies = 125
Ravager, 3x Dissies = 125

+++

Black Heart Wing +1 CP

FLYER:
Razorwing, 2x Dark Lance = 145
Razorwing, 2x Dark Lance = 145
Razorwing, 2x Dark Lance = 145

>>>
Firepower:
11 Dark Lances at BS3+
9 Dissies at BS3+
9 Blasters at BS3+
3 Blasters at BS2+
3 Razorwing Missiles at BS3+
4 Splinter Cannons at BS3+
40 Splinter Rifles at BS3+

I'm going to take a break here, but this gave me a wonderful idea for my next blog post. I want to talk about my journey through the weeks after a ton of games with the new book, and how my list evolved over time Smile

I guess his near-worthless comment wasn't so worthless after all. lol!

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HERO
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PostSubject: Re: HERO's Kabal WIP List Factory   Sun May 20 2018, 06:12

Quote :
Soaring Heart
2000 // 13 CP

Soaring Spite Bat +5

HQ:
Troupe Master, Caress, Fusion = 86
Troupe Master, Caress, Fusion = 86

TROOP:
5x Troupe, 5x Caress, 2x Fusion = 118
Starweaver = 99
217

5x Troupe, 5x Caress, 2x Fusion = 118
Starweaver = 99
217

5x Troupe, 5x Caress, 2x Fusion = 118
Starweaver = 99
217

ELITE:
Solitaire = 98

+++

Black Heart Bat +5

HQ:
Archon, Agonizer, Blaster = 91
Cunning, Living Muse

Archon, Agonizer, Blaster = 91

TROOP:
5x Warriors, Blaster = 47
5x Warriors, Blaster = 47
5x Warriors, Blaster = 47
5x Warriors, Blaster = 47
5x Warriors, Blaster = 47
5x Warriors, Blaster = 47

PARTY BOATS:
Raider, Dissie = 80
Raider, Dissie = 80
Raider, Dissie = 80

HEAVY:
Ravager, 3x Dissies = 125
Ravager, 3x Dissies = 125
Ravager, 3x Dissies = 125

>>>

Firepower:
12 Disintegrators at BS3+
24 Splinter Rifles at BS3+
6 Blasters at BS3+
2 Blasters at BS2+
6 Shuriken Cannons at BS3+
6 Fusion Pistols at BS3+
2 Fusion Pistols at BS2+

Currently working on this. Soaring Spite because of the mechanized.

More info here:
http://lkhero.blogspot.com/2018/05/harlequins-making-it-work.html

Justification:
-I've been constructing a lot of lists in the last couple of days with the new book and I've had a lot of thought experiments. Here are some of the topics that I've thought about the most the last couple of days:
-How viable is Harlequins as a standalone army? They're so expensive and it's really difficult to get them to work from a raw points-effectiveness standpoint. The more Harlequins you take, the less other "good stuff" you can take from allies.
-Speaking of allies: What makes a good ally for Harlequins? Do you take them with Eldar or do you take them with Dark Eldar? What about both? Do you even have enough points to take both?
-There are a TON of Strategems that I think Harlequins generally depend on. Your model count is low, so you really need to spend CP on them every chance you get to make them worth it. I think Harlequins might be one of the most CP-heavy armies in the entire game from what I've seen.
-For my playstyle, I'm going to keep the army mechanized because I need to be able to preserve the fragile assault units inside while delivering them across the table. However, I did think about big units of Troupes a few times because of all the overlapping and stacking buffs.
-What is the best Form that I should take with my army? I'm mainly thinking about Soaring Spite right now because my forces are mostly mechanized, but I'm also eyeing Frozen Stars for damage, Midnight Sorrow for tieing things up, and Silent Shroud for practicality with Eldar shenanigans.
-I'm still working on the best layout for my Troupes, mainly because I'm focusing on 3 key design principles: The Form matters, but cost-effective units matter more. The Troupe must be able to be a melee threat to all targets. The first Fusion Pistol is a must, the rest is luxury.

With that said, I got started working on some basic list principles:
-Build with as much CP as possible because you should be using Harlequin Stratagems at every chance to keep the army alive. This means double-Bat is a must-have.
-Build with some kind of Black Heart so you can bring in Cunning and introduce Vect so you can repress enemy bull-crap while having a CP-farm on your side.
-Build as many threats as possible: Keeping your Troupes alive so they can make a cost-effective return means you have to introduce some serious threats on your side of the table.

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UlrikTheSlayer
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PostSubject: Re: HERO's Kabal WIP List Factory   Wed May 30 2018, 12:17

I read every pages and I like your lists but you never took into account one thing about Flayed Skulls : Ignore cover and compared to your Obsidian Rose adding 6" to range, I do prefer 3" of movement and the other boons but thats my point of view.

I made a list that looked like yours at first but without the same Kabal. I do believe that full Kabal is better than adding a Wych cult/Coven but you then just miss the flavor of being a Dark Eldar.

I like Dissies too and I felt that my Razorwing had more impacts as "Flayed Skulls" than as a Black Heart exactly for that part. Razorwing Dissies with Ignore Cover is something I do like. My meta brings a lot of "Dark Reapers" spam and if the ennemy does not have the possibility to fire at 48" first turn or does not have the first turn: you will just rip around 10 to 15 Dark Reapers turn 1 because for now, they put them inside Wave serpents or in ruins.  Killing a Wave Serpent is not that easy but usually they pack 2x5 Dark Reapers inside (or 3x3) and then permits you to ruin their game as a 6+ save against dissies means that they usually dies quickly from my flyers (and 6++ for me is a lot worse than 5+ and they do have 3++ against the missiles/poison shots if needed).

I do believe that a Spearhead of Black Heart with Ravagers is core to any DE lists today, that everyone agree. They are heavily focused but that makes the rest of our army more dangerous.

Being Flayed skulls does not mean you absolutely needs Venoms. Venoms will sure profit from their Poison weapons and the -1 but I most of time prefer 2 squads inside a Raider or 1 if Kill points are counted in the game. Raiders will also remove cover with their Dissies/DL.
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lcfr
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PostSubject: Re: HERO's Kabal WIP List Factory   Wed May 30 2018, 18:16

I'm making the switch to Obsidian Rose, your arguments are convincing.

PS would love to see your blog do an 8th ed version of your 2015 "DE Playstyles" article
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