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HERO
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PostSubject: HERO's Kabal WIP List Factory   Sun Apr 01 2018, 07:25

The objective of this list is to min-max as much as possible.

Let's try to min-max this with some goals:
Must have Black Heart for Agents of Vect and Labyrinthine Cunning
Have as many CP as possible
Maximize firepower

Here's what I came up with:

Quote :
1998 - 7 CP
Flayed Skull Battalion - 3 CP

HQ:
Archon, Agonizer, Blaster = 91
Archon, Agonizer, Blaster = 91

TROOP:
5x Warriors, Blaster = 47
Venom, 2x SC = 75
122

5x Warriors, Blaster = 47
Venom, 2x SC = 75
122

10x Warriors, 2x Blaster, Dark Lance = 114
Raider, Splinter Racks, Dark Lance = 95
209

10x Warriors, 2x Blaster, Dark Lance = 114
Raider, Splinter Racks, Dark Lance = 95
209

10x Warriors, 2x Blaster, Dark Lance = 114
Raider, Splinter Racks, Dark Lance = 95
209

FLYER:
Razorwing, 2x Dark Lances = 145
Razorwing, 2x Dark Lances = 145

+++

Black Heart Spearhead - 1 CP

HQ:
Archon, Agonizer, Blaster = 91
Warlord: Labyrinthine Cunning
Artifact: Writ of Living Muse

TROOP:
7x Warriors, Blaster = 59
Raider, Dark Lance = 85
144

HEAVY:
Ravager, 3x Dark Lances = 140
Ravager, 3x Dark Lances = 140
Ravager, 3x Dark Lances = 140

This is the list that's currently housed to be reviewed.

>>>

Firepower Analysis:
20 Dark Lances at BS3+
9 Blasters at BS3+
3 Blasters at BS2+
4 Splinter Cannons at BS3+
21 Splinter Rifles at BS3+ with Flayed Skull + Splinter Racks
19 Splinter Rifles at BS3+ elsewhere
2 Razorwing Missiles at BS3+

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HERO
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PostSubject: Re: HERO's Kabal WIP List Factory   Sun Apr 01 2018, 09:11

Recent article talks about a combination of the two lists above:
http://lkhero.blogspot.com/2018/04/de-min-maxing-pure-kabal.html

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PartZebra
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PostSubject: Re: HERO's Kabal WIP List Factory   Sun Apr 01 2018, 09:55

I like this. May give it a go in my next game, just need another rwj...
Alternatively, I may take Dissie Ravagers and a Voidraven (instead of a third rwj) since I'm usually against Necrons.

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PostSubject: Re: HERO's Kabal WIP List Factory   Sun Apr 01 2018, 10:16

Definitely also point out that in my latest list iteration, I might take all my Dark Lances and use them as Disintegrators instead.

That's 20x3 = 60 Dissie shots on opening volley Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: HERO's Kabal WIP List Factory   Sun Apr 01 2018, 14:36

I like Dissies on ravagers. Ravagers are so cheap with them and so good. They have the same damage output as dark lances max, and I think against heavier targets this would balance out even and they would beneift more from a nearby archon. Plus with blasters becoming abundant now, do you even need dark lance ravagers? I think Dissies are gonna be a thing.

My ideal list I'm trying to get to work is two units of 6 reavers, trio of ddies ravagers, 2 warrior blaster 20 man blobs for webway portal, a couple blaster scourges and 2 10 man mandrakes. Gotta make it work somehow and I'' be happy. Don't even want to add reaper ynnari squad.
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PostSubject: Re: HERO's Kabal WIP List Factory   Sun Apr 01 2018, 15:44

No Dissies? With Blasters being D6 damage and being everywhere, and Haywire Blasters being back, I'm shocked people aren't as excited about Dissie Ravagers as I am.

Also, have you run the math on the Flayed Skull Kabs in Raiders vs Venoms? I suspect the Venoms win out but I haven't done it myself. Even if the math is close, Raiders are still as squishy as they ever were. And the Kabs inside suffer from the same -1 to hit on the Lance as before.

Do your fliers need Flayed Skull? I'm guessing you're doing it for the +1 to hit Stratagem. However, you can get a similar or better benefit from a Ravager using the same stratagem. I'd suggest you go Black Heart with the Air Wing for 6+++.

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PostSubject: Re: HERO's Kabal WIP List Factory   Sun Apr 01 2018, 15:49

Yeah I definetly don't think you need 21 dark lances shots, you could change out a lot of those for disintegrator cannons. I'd probably swap out all the fliers or all the ravagers lances for disintegrators, depending just how many disintegrator cannon shots you want.

I think 10 warriors with 2 blasters and a dark lance in a raider is solid. Consider even with splinter racks it's only 10pts more than a venom, you're saving a lot of pts on transports by not taking all venoms and using some raiders. I think it's best to mix both transports and not overly rely on one.

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PostSubject: Re: HERO's Kabal WIP List Factory   Sun Apr 01 2018, 17:00

Don´t forget that you get what? +3 CP if your army is battle forged per rule book rules. I think.
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PostSubject: Re: HERO's Kabal WIP List Factory   Sun Apr 01 2018, 17:23

Yeah he already included that in his cp calculation.

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PostSubject: Re: HERO's Kabal WIP List Factory   Sun Apr 01 2018, 17:32

@Lord Asvaldir wrote:
Yeah I definetly don't think you need 21 dark lances shots, you could change out a lot of those for disintegrator cannons. I'd probably swap out all the fliers or all the ravagers lances for disintegrators, depending just how many disintegrator cannon shots you want.

I think 10 warriors with 2 blasters and a dark lance in a raider is solid. Consider even with splinter racks it's only 10pts more than a venom, you're saving a lot of pts on transports by not taking all venoms and using some raiders. I think it's best to mix both transports and not overly rely on one.

I can definitely appreciate some mathhammer on Dissies vs. Lances for sure. I know there was an article here a while back the explained when Dark Lances were better.

I still think that with 20 Dissies, 60 shots of S5 AP-3 D2 sounds kinda nuts and definitely worth trying.

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PostSubject: Re: HERO's Kabal WIP List Factory   Sun Apr 01 2018, 18:36

Dissies Vs Dark Lances;

Tl;dr: DL has a slight efficiency edge against T7 3+, then drops significantly at T8 +3, then gain back at T8, 2+. If you're looking to face a lot of Russes, stick with Dissies, Land Raiders are better left to the Lances

Dissies:
T7 3+: 2 Hits, .67 Wounds, .56 Unsaved, 1.11 Damage (.074 Wounds/Point)
T8 3+: 2 Hits, .67 Wounds, .56 Unsaved, 1.11 Damage (.074 Wounds/Point)
T8 2+: 2 Hits, .67 Wounds, .22 Unsaved, .44 Damage (.030 Wounds/Point)

Dark Lance:
T7 3+: 1 Shot, .67 Hits, .44 Wounds, .44 Unsaved, 1.56 Damage (.078 Wounds/ Point)
T8 3+: 1 Shot, .67 Hits, .33 Wounds, .33 Unsaved, 1.16 Damage (.058 Wounds/Point)
T8 2+: 1 Shot, .67 Hits, .33 Wounds, .28 Unsaved, .97 Damage (.049 Wounds/ Point)
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PostSubject: Re: HERO's Kabal WIP List Factory   Sun Apr 01 2018, 19:29

@HERO wrote:
@Lord Asvaldir wrote:
Yeah I definetly don't think you need 21 dark lances shots, you could change out a lot of those for disintegrator cannons. I'd probably swap out all the fliers or all the ravagers lances for disintegrators, depending just how many disintegrator cannon shots you want.

I think 10 warriors with 2 blasters and a dark lance in a raider is solid. Consider even with splinter racks it's only 10pts more than a venom, you're saving a lot of pts on transports by not taking all venoms and using some raiders. I think it's best to mix both transports and not overly rely on one.

I can definitely appreciate some mathhammer on Dissies vs. Lances for sure.  I know there was an article here a while back the explained when Dark Lances were better.

I still think that with 20 Dissies, 60 shots of S5 AP-3 D2 sounds kinda nuts and definitely worth trying.

A primaris marines focused list would just cry to see 20 dissie cannons placed on the table.

That's some good math for dissies vs lances, interesting to see that in some cases the disintegrator cannon is better anti tank. I think I'd rather still stick with dark lances as my main anti tank focus, but definetly going to need to take more disintegrator cannons.

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PostSubject: Re: HERO's Kabal WIP List Factory   Sun Apr 01 2018, 19:32

What about the archon reroll buff?

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PostSubject: Re: HERO's Kabal WIP List Factory   Sun Apr 01 2018, 21:46

Yeah I love disintegrators. Always have. They are my all time fav dark eldar gun.

I will for sure have a good number of disintegrators in my army. I like the Obsidian Rose for the extra range on the weapons. It really helps the army to survive and make your opponent over extend.

BUT the black heart could be really good for that
relic that gives the archon the reroll 1s yo wound bubble. So ravagers re-rolling 1s to hit and wound is deadly.

Throw in some craft world doom and jinx and everything you shoot at is going to suffer.

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PostSubject: Re: HERO's Kabal WIP List Factory   Mon Apr 02 2018, 04:23

Eh it is functional certainly not min maxed though, and unless your meta is a ton of vehicles or monsters not sure you need quite so much dark light.  Couple things I would say though.  Splinter Racks are hot garbage... I know people are thrilled they are back, but on average with 2 blasters and a lance you are going to get 1.17 extra splinter hits at +12" and 2.33 inside of 12".  10 points for 2 splinter rifle shots is pretty terrible. Its like buying an extra kabalite for 10 points that only exists in the raider.  Sure luck happens, but that is pretty points inefficient.  Save your 30 points buy something else.  you don't have much way to deal with hordes, so your disintegrator idea I like for a couple reasons, A) more shots good for hordes B) points efficient vs anything but 2+ t8 or invulns.  Could always split it and do 2 dissie ravs and 1 lance rav with lances on the raiders.  Just think 31 dark light might be over kill though, unless as I said you are fighting in a super vehicle/monster heavy meta.
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PostSubject: Re: HERO's Kabal WIP List Factory   Mon Apr 02 2018, 05:43

@GrinNfool wrote:
Eh it is functional certainly not min maxed though, and unless your meta is a ton of vehicles or monsters not sure you need quite so much dark light.  Couple things I would say though.  Splinter Racks are hot garbage... I know people are thrilled they are back, but on average with 2 blasters and a lance you are going to get 1.17 extra splinter hits at +12" and 2.33 inside of 12".  10 points for 2 splinter rifle shots is pretty terrible.  Its like buying an extra kabalite for 10 points that only exists in the raider.  Sure luck happens, but that is pretty points inefficient.  Save your 30 points buy something else.  you don't have much way to deal with hordes, so your disintegrator idea I like for a couple reasons, A) more shots good for hordes B) points efficient vs anything but 2+ t8 or invulns.  Could always split it and do 2 dissie ravs and 1 lance rav with lances on the raiders.  Just think 31 dark light might be over kill though, unless as I said you are fighting in a super vehicle/monster heavy meta.

What about with Flayed Skull re-rolling 1s to hit? Did you factor that in?

I would be willing to say the same thing about the extra SC on Venoms. I'm going to drop them after mathing it out today. I'm still not willing to pay the 10 extra points to covert the twin Splinter Rifle into the SC.

OK, let's see what we get by shifting some points around. If we go all Dissies, this gives me 60 shots of S5 AP-3 D2 which can be absolutely murderous.

I can find further points by changing all the Archon's Agonizers into Venom Blades that cost 2 points each.

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PostSubject: Re: HERO's Kabal WIP List Factory   Mon Apr 02 2018, 05:47

Quote :
I can find further points by changing all the Archon's Agonizers into Venom Blades that cost 2 points each.

You're saving six points with that move, but losing access to all melee AP for your entire HQ section. Archons will already struggle to make back their full points, I don't think it's wise to decrease it even further

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PostSubject: Re: HERO's Kabal WIP List Factory   Mon Apr 02 2018, 05:50

New list up for review:

Quote :
1998 - 8 CP

Flayed Skull Battalion - 6 CP

HQ:
Archon, Agonizer, Blaster = 91
Archon, Agonizer, Blaster = 91

TROOP:
5x Warriors, Blaster = 47
Venom = 65
112

5x Warriors, Blaster = 47
Venom = 65
112

10x Warriors, 2x Blaster, Dark Lance = 114
Raider, Disintegrator = 80
194

10x Warriors, 2x Blaster, Dark Lance = 114
Raider, Disintegrator = 80
194

10x Warriors, 2x Blaster, Dark Lance = 114
Raider, Disintegrator = 80
194

+++

Flayed Skull Air Wing - 1 CP

FLYER:
Razorwing, 2x Dinsintegrators = 135
Razorwing, 2x Dinsintegrators = 135
Razorwing, 2x Dinsintegrators = 135

+++

Black Heart Spearhead - 1 CP

HQ:
Archon, Agonizer, Blaster = 91

TROOP:
7x Warriors, Blaster = 59
Raider, Disintegrator = 80
139

HEAVY:
Ravager, 3x Dinsintegrators = 125
Ravager, 3x Dinsintegrators = 125
Ravager, 3x Dinsintegrators = 125

Firepower Analysis:
19 Disintegrators at BS3+
3 Dark Lances at BS3+
9 Blasters at BS3+
3 Blasters at BS2+
2 Splinter Cannons at BS3+
46 Splinter Rifles at BS3+
3 Razorwing Missiles at BS3+

The extra points drop from all the Splinter Racks and Dark Lance to Dissies conversion gave me points for another Razorwing and one more CP Smile

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PostSubject: Re: HERO's Kabal WIP List Factory   Mon Apr 02 2018, 06:26

@HERO wrote:
@GrinNfool wrote:
Eh it is functional... .

What about with Flayed Skull re-rolling 1s to hit?  Did you factor that in?

I would be willing to say the same thing about the extra SC on Venoms.  I'm going to drop them after mathing it out today.  I'm still not willing to pay the 10 extra points to covert the twin Splinter Rifle into the SC.

OK, let's see what we get by shifting some points around.  If we go all Dissies, this gives me 60 shots of S5 AP-3 D2 which can be absolutely murderous.

I can find further points by changing all the Archon's Agonizers into Venom Blades that cost 2 points each.

I did not factor in flayed skull but.. basically its slightly better than 1/36 would guesstimate it around 1/32 to roll a 1 and then reroll into a 6, per 7 shots. While its better, still don't see it being 10 points better. I would agree on the cannons too. The only kabal I see the 2nd cannon being useful is obsidian rose, with a kite strategy and it is debatable there. New list looks much more solid vs a variety of armies instead of just 1 kind. 12 blasters 3 lances should still be enough dark light to pose a threat to melt important targets allowing you to use the dissies flexibly, either helping on vehicles or melting squads down. I am also counting 19 for 57 shots, you said 66 am I miscounting or did something not get written on your list?
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PostSubject: Re: HERO's Kabal WIP List Factory   Mon Apr 02 2018, 06:36

@GrinNfool wrote:
@HERO wrote:
@GrinNfool wrote:
Eh it is functional... .

What about with Flayed Skull re-rolling 1s to hit?  Did you factor that in?

I would be willing to say the same thing about the extra SC on Venoms.  I'm going to drop them after mathing it out today.  I'm still not willing to pay the 10 extra points to covert the twin Splinter Rifle into the SC.

OK, let's see what we get by shifting some points around.  If we go all Dissies, this gives me 60 shots of S5 AP-3 D2 which can be absolutely murderous.

I can find further points by changing all the Archon's Agonizers into Venom Blades that cost 2 points each.

I did not factor in flayed skull but.. basically its slightly better than 1/36 would guesstimate it around 1/32 to roll a 1 and then reroll into a 6, per 7 shots.  While its better, still don't see it being 10 points better.  I would agree on the cannons too.  The only kabal I see the 2nd cannon being useful is obsidian rose, with a kite strategy and it is debatable there.  New list looks much more solid vs a variety of armies instead of just 1 kind.  12 blasters 3 lances should still be enough dark light to pose a threat to melt important targets allowing you to use the dissies flexibly, either helping on vehicles or melting squads down.  I am also counting 19 for 57 shots, you said 66 am I miscounting or did something not get written on your list?

No, you're right. I did a bad conversion on the math and accidentally counted the Dark Lances from the Warriors Smile

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PostSubject: Re: HERO's Kabal WIP List Factory   Mon Apr 02 2018, 06:41

7 splinter rifles re-rolling 1s to hit will roll 2.785 6s within 12". Outside of 12" it is 1.39.

So yeah, pretty inefficient. There will be the once in a blue moon occasion when you roll like 6 6s, but even then you are basically firing an extra splinter cannon, which is the same 10 points as the splinter racks.

And yes, splinter cannons are crap too, they should be like 4 points to upgrade twin splinter rifles. I would say the vast majority of the armory is terrible, except for dark light and basic (i.e. free) splinter weapons. Shredders and haywire blasters got a bit more play with cost reductions (and increased fire rate for blasters), but even then I think they are more "this is fun" options than optimal min-maxed choices.
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PostSubject: Re: HERO's Kabal WIP List Factory   Mon Apr 02 2018, 09:19

OK, I think I might have it:

Quote :
1992 - 7 CP

Black Heart Battalion - 3 CP

HQ:
Archon, Agonizer, Blaster = 91
Archon, Agonizer, Blaster = 91

TROOP:
5x Warriors, Blaster = 47
Raider, Disintegrator = 80
127

5x Warriors, Blaster = 47
Raider, Disintegrator = 80
127

10x Warriors, 2x Blaster, Dark Lance = 114
Raider, Disintegrator = 80
194

10x Warriors, 2x Blaster, Dark Lance = 114
Raider, Disintegrator = 80
194

10x Warriors, 2x Blaster, Dark Lance = 114
Raider, Disintegrator = 80
194

10x Warriors, 2x Blaster, Dark Lance = 114
Raider, Disintegrator = 80
194

HEAVY:
Ravager, 3x Dinsintegrators = 125
Ravager, 3x Dinsintegrators = 125
Ravager, 3x Dinsintegrators = 125

+++

Black Heart Air Wing - 1 CP

FLYER:
Razorwing, 2x Dinsintegrators = 135
Razorwing, 2x Dinsintegrators = 135
Razorwing, 2x Dinsintegrators = 135

>>>

Firepower Analysis:
21 Disintegrators at BS3+
4 Dark Lances at BS3+
10 Blasters at BS3+
2 Blasters at BS2+
42 Splinter Rifles at BS3+
3 Razorwing Missiles at BS3+

OK hear me out: you now have 63 Dissie shots, but I consolidated everything under the Black Heart Warlord with Living Muse. You take everything you got and deathball 63 shots of S5 AP-3 D2 with re-roll 1s to Hit and Wound within 6" of your Archon.

Are we at max beard yet? Everything is now Black Heart so you can keep your stuff around longer as well. Spirit Stones for everyone!

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PostSubject: Re: HERO's Kabal WIP List Factory   Mon Apr 02 2018, 14:23

Why are you limiting yourself to pure Kabal?

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PostSubject: Re: HERO's Kabal WIP List Factory   Mon Apr 02 2018, 17:28

@TeenageAngst wrote:
Why are you limiting yourself to pure Kabal?

Because I enjoy the theme and shooting Smile

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PostSubject: Re: HERO's Kabal WIP List Factory   Mon Apr 02 2018, 17:48

I think you swung too far the other way on the lances and now don't have any long-range anti-tank while having too many disintigrators.

The dark lances you did keep are effectively BS4+ since you will be moving your raiders. I would at least leave the lances on the raiders.
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