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 Kabal of the Black Heart is actually REALLY good

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Kabal of the Black Heart is actually REALLY good   Tue Apr 03 2018, 12:07

As written there's nothing to stop that stratagem being used multiple times. It's pre-battle and the only requirement is that your Warlord is an Archon.

Don't get used to it though, as I very much doubt it will make it past the post-release FAQ.

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Crazy_Ivan
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PostSubject: Re: Kabal of the Black Heart is actually REALLY good   Tue Apr 03 2018, 12:14

So labyrinth cunning works during the deployment phase?
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Kabal of the Black Heart is actually REALLY good   Tue Apr 03 2018, 12:18

@Crazy_Ivan wrote:
So labyrinth cunning works during the deployment phase?

I wouldn't say so, no. But the Alliance of Agony stratagem costs 1 CP and if you give your Haemonculus the Diabolical Soothsayer WL trait that refunds you D3 CPs, so at best you're no worse off and you can potentially gain 2 CPs each time you use it.

As I say, expect a FAQ!

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The Red King
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PostSubject: Re: Kabal of the Black Heart is actually REALLY good   Tue Apr 03 2018, 13:12

Your warlord is alive during deployment. If your opponent is a stickler just make sure you put him on the table before you spend the CP since There's no limit on when "during deployment" you have to do it.

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Imateria
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PostSubject: Re: Kabal of the Black Heart is actually REALLY good   Tue Apr 03 2018, 13:27

@Count Adhemar wrote:
@Crazy_Ivan wrote:
So labyrinth cunning works during the deployment phase?

I wouldn't say so, no. But the Alliance of Agony stratagem costs 1 CP and if you give your Haemonculus the Diabolical Soothsayer WL trait that refunds you D3 CPs, so at best you're no worse off and you can potentially gain 2 CPs each time you use it.

As I say, expect a FAQ!
I would say it does. Every other ability of this type usually specifies that the character with it has to be on the table, ours only says the warlord has to be alive.
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Imateria
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PostSubject: Re: Kabal of the Black Heart is actually REALLY good   Tue Apr 03 2018, 13:35

I think Dark Eldar are in the envious position of having 10 good Obsessions as they are all quite usable, by comparison Marines barely get 3 out of 7. That said, of the 10 I find Black Heart have the weakest Obsession as whilst it's definitely great for vehicles it does nothing for my troops (I don't generally run squads big enough to worry about moral, other than Incubi who wont be benefiting anyway). Poisoned Tongue, Flayed Skull and Obsidian Rose all do something that helps us kill our opponents faster, and in a glass hammer army I can't help feeling that thats a lot more important, our best defence is making sure our enemy isn't alive to shoot at me.

The Warlord Trait and Stratagem are both amazing though, but I feel the relic is a red herring. Ravagers don't have the range to let them hang back and gunline like Basalisks, everygame I've played with them they've moved around to get line of sight and range on different targets and I'd barely get a single turn of use out of an Archons re-roll bubble.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Kabal of the Black Heart is actually REALLY good   Tue Apr 03 2018, 14:33

@Imateria wrote:
The Warlord Trait and Stratagem are both amazing though, but I feel the relic is a red herring. Ravagers don't have the range to let them hang back and gunline like Basalisks, everygame I've played with them they've moved around to get line of sight and range on different targets and I'd barely get a single turn of use out of an Archons re-roll bubble.

Given the Ravagers can only move 14" (unless you want to lose accuracy) and the Archon can move 8+d6" on foot, you should be able to keep him within 6" for the aura(s).

And looking at the stratagem, I think you guys are probably right, although I'd still say the warlord has to be on the table.

Honestly, my main complaint about Kabal of the Black Heart is that EVERY Aeldari list can access the most powerful features of our codex and for an absolute pittance (one detachment and ~100 points).

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DevilDoll
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PostSubject: Re: Kabal of the Black Heart is actually REALLY good   Tue Apr 03 2018, 15:19

question: does this black heart relic say anywhere that it affects black heart kabal units specifically or Kabal in general? Because else you could potentially buff your entire army with this. Also the 12" increase is only for the "to wound" aura or both?
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Kabal of the Black Heart is actually REALLY good   Tue Apr 03 2018, 15:35

Yeah, i am for sure going to use a Patrol of Black Heart with 2 Ravagers as DL's and 2 Raiders with Discannons, minimum kabals units no upgrades and the Archon to re-rolls the 4 vehicles, i plan on using the Kabals of bubble wrap (they are re-roll advances/charges turn 1 seems better than being in a vehicle doing nothing).

I also was thinking of being mean and just doing a Spearhead of 6 Ravagers with the BH Archon, 3 of each type of Ravager. That way i can have massive good re-roll's.

I really need to see if i can do a Spearhead/Outrider/Battalion for cheap, its 1 more CP and i get more space to with what i want at the cost of less troops but 1 more HQ.


@DevilDoll wrote:
question: does this black heart relic say anywhere that it affects black heart kabal units specifically or Kabal in general? Because else you could potentially buff your entire army with this. Also the 12" increase is only for the "to wound" aura or both?

Not sure my self.

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Imateria
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PostSubject: Re: Kabal of the Black Heart is actually REALLY good   Tue Apr 03 2018, 17:56

@Count Adhemar wrote:
@Imateria wrote:
The Warlord Trait and Stratagem are both amazing though, but I feel the relic is a red herring. Ravagers don't have the range to let them hang back and gunline like Basalisks, everygame I've played with them they've moved around to get line of sight and range on different targets and I'd barely get a single turn of use out of an Archons re-roll bubble.

Given the Ravagers can only move 14" (unless you want to lose accuracy) and the Archon can move 8+d6" on foot, you should be able to keep him within 6" for the aura(s).

And looking at the stratagem, I think you guys are probably right, although I'd still say the warlord has to be on the table.

Honestly, my main complaint about Kabal of the Black Heart is that EVERY Aeldari list can access the most powerful features of our codex and for an absolute pittance (one detachment and ~100 points).
You are assuming the Ravagers are going in the same direction.
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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: Kabal of the Black Heart is actually REALLY good   Tue Apr 03 2018, 18:06

Since the Archon's job is solely to give them rerolls, that's an easy assumption Smile

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Barrywise
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PostSubject: Re: Kabal of the Black Heart is actually REALLY good   Tue Apr 03 2018, 19:29

Sorry, going back to the "before battle" part of the stratagem. Further proof of this can be found in the Chaos Daemon's stratagem that allows them to deepstrike in, and they can also technically use it an infinite number of times as long as they have the CP to do it.

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Dorkreign
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PostSubject: Re: Kabal of the Black Heart is actually REALLY good   Tue Apr 03 2018, 19:58

First post for me:
The stratagem that gives you extra warlord traits says to generate them, not to choose them. I took "generate" to mean "choose randomly", but it seems most people take it to mean "choose". Are there any precedents for how to interpret the wording?
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PostSubject: Re: Kabal of the Black Heart is actually REALLY good   Tue Apr 03 2018, 20:26

@Barrywise wrote:
Sorry, going back to the "before battle" part of the stratagem. Further proof of this can be found in the Chaos Daemon's stratagem that allows them to deepstrike in, and they can also technically use it an infinite number of times as long as they have the CP to do it.

yeah this is something we are talking about on DE group page


@Dorkreign wrote:
First post for me:
The stratagem that gives you extra warlord traits says to generate them, not to choose them. I took "generate" to mean "choose randomly", but it seems most people take it to mean "choose". Are there any precedents for how to interpret the wording?

Generate doesnt mean random tho, it just mean to "cause to arise or come about." I can generate the outcome i want.

When you draw or paint you are generating lines and colors, that is not random.

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PostSubject: Re: Kabal of the Black Heart is actually REALLY good   Tue Apr 03 2018, 20:29

Generate still lets you choose.

I don't know why we are still debating the giving the same warlord trait multiple times over with the stratagem, clearly yeah you can do it but it is without question going to be hit hard with the faq bat and switched over to a once per game stratagem.

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Kabal of the Black Heart is actually REALLY good   Tue Apr 03 2018, 20:32

@Lord Asvaldir wrote:
Generate still lets you choose.

I don't know why we are still debating the giving the same warlord trait multiple times over with the stratagem, clearly yeah you can do it but it is without question going to be hit hard with the faq bat and switched over to a once per game stratagem.

Yeah, i think its clearly not intended and will be faq'ed for sure.

But doing it for fun a couple times isn't a bad thing lol!

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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: Kabal of the Black Heart is actually REALLY good   Tue Apr 03 2018, 20:34

Some players read : "Let's dismiss it, it will be FAQed"

I read : "Let's play it while we still can, it will be FAQed".

Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: Kabal of the Black Heart is actually REALLY good   Tue Apr 03 2018, 20:59

What an odd situation GW has created, and one they will probably smack in the face multiple times with a Nerf bat so it is mildly deformed by being repeatedly hit by the hardish foam, joke aside ... There isn't anything that states a warlord trait can't be taken more than once outside of your army can only have one warlord ... But here, we have the ability to shatter that to pieces and have more than one "warlord" imagine 3d3 CP generating haemies and 3 suicide or exploding (hits of 6 generate 3 hits) succubi... And the archon in the back laughing as he gets a chance at regening all of those CP and then whatever your opponent does. I'm not going to use this stratagem like this in my playgroup without permission ... Mainly because I don't wanna get kicked outa the only non hyper competitive playground in the area, bunch of cool guys and I enjoy playing against them more than the min max lists of the imperium and chaos that have constant wars with each other (really there is a playgroup of only imperiul players and a play group of only chaos players all hyper competitive that arrange the local tourney brackets almost exclusively to be imperium vs chaos with Xenos thrown in when they show up) but still that stratagem was more than likely meant to only effect 3 models in total, 1 archon, 1 heamy, and 1 succubus.
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PostSubject: Re: Kabal of the Black Heart is actually REALLY good   Tue Apr 03 2018, 21:41

Really? Are people really discussing the legality of infinite command points and warlord traits?

Post edited. Let's keep this civil guys - Count Adhemar
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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: Kabal of the Black Heart is actually REALLY good   Tue Apr 03 2018, 21:48

@withershadow wrote:
Really? Are people really discussing the legality of infinite command points and warlord traits?

Ha. Even with that abuse, you'll still end up with less CP than an IG player, and their build doesn't seem to be a problem.

It really looks like DE having something very strong is a major issue for everyone.

Is taking 6 HQs (that are not good at all) to unlock "infinite" (more or less between 11-21, so 16 in average) that abusive ?

Post edited - Count Adhemar

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PostSubject: Re: Kabal of the Black Heart is actually REALLY good   Tue Apr 03 2018, 21:50

I agree with Mppqlmd

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PostSubject: Re: Kabal of the Black Heart is actually REALLY good   Tue Apr 03 2018, 21:52

The way I understood the discussion was not having 6 warlords, but rather creating an infinite loop of spending CPs to grant a warlord trait (since nothing says you can't have multiple beyond the one you get to select as normal), which in turn grants more CPs, and the initial investment can be farmed for refunds on 6s.
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PostSubject: Re: Kabal of the Black Heart is actually REALLY good   Tue Apr 03 2018, 21:55

Post edited - Count Adhemar

Quote :

The way I understood the discussion was not having 6 warlords, but rather creating an infinite loop of spending CPs to grant a warlord trait (since nothing says you can't have multiple beyond the one you get to select as normal), which in turn grants more CPs, and the initial investment can be farmed for refunds on 6s.

Quote :
Just think about 6 Patrols with Archon as a warlord and 5 Haemonculi:
Because it is "before battle" you can use this stratagem 5 times choosing each Haemi at a time.
This means 5D3-5 (0-10, average 5) Command Points extra Very Happy
In a 6 patrol army it is an average of 16 CP.

Rolling Eyes

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PostSubject: Re: Kabal of the Black Heart is actually REALLY good   Tue Apr 03 2018, 23:52

@Mppqlmd wrote:
Some players read : "Let's dismiss it, it will be FAQed"

I read : "Let's play it while we still can, it will be FAQed".

Very Happy

Fair I suppose by a) I have one haemonculus, not going to buy a ton more for this exploit and b) I have a chill gaming group that wouldn't really enjoy facing that sort of silliness.

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PostSubject: Re: Kabal of the Black Heart is actually REALLY good   Wed Apr 04 2018, 08:42

Post edited - Count Adhemar

I do ask myself the following though: Alliance of Agony states you have to chose up to one Haemonculus and up to one Succubus."
Does it mean we need to pick both of them? The fact there is a "or" missing raises some questions...
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