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 Kabal of the Black Heart is actually REALLY good

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FattimusMcGee
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PostSubject: Kabal of the Black Heart is actually REALLY good   Sat Mar 31 2018, 09:34

I see a lot of people tossing the Black Heart faction aside, but I think you're forgetting a very powerful ability they bring.

Labyrinthine Cunning: Whiles your WL is alive, roll a D6 each time *you* or *your opponent* spends a Command Point to use a strategem. You gain a CP for each 6

This is insane for Drukhari as we're going to need all the CP possible. Think about it, with Screaming Jets you're going to be spending 3-6CP before the game even starts. I also think, once the Codex drops and we know more, we should consider a Haemonculus w/the +d3CP trait.

The "counter-spell" strategem that cancels theirs on a 2+ is 3CP if I'm not mistaken - We *need* to have the extra leeway of using risky/offensive moves early and still coming back later.

Are they good as a main faction? No, not at all - Are they literally the perfect Patrol or accessory detachment? Yes - I dare say an auto-include (especially if running Ynarri)
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FattimusMcGee
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PostSubject: Re: Kabal of the Black Heart is actually REALLY good   Sat Mar 31 2018, 09:46

So far I'm considering either 1 Battallion + 3 Patrols (no tourneys) or 1 Battalion + 1 Spearhead + Whatever (Air Wing?).

Battalion + Patrols would be an easy 10CP. FS x2, BH x1, PoF/RedGrief

B+SH+AW/? would be the 8 I'm used to, in which case I'd go FS, BH, PoF/FS


6 detachments requires a lot of tax HQs, though we'll see maybe they're worth it this time around? I'd probably hide the BH Archon near a Ravager or two for the buff. (or better yet, multiple Archons).
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Squidmaster
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PostSubject: Re: Kabal of the Black Heart is actually REALLY good   Sat Mar 31 2018, 11:27

Yeah, I might be in on the Black heart. Really not sure though. I may just add one Patrol of them.
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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: Kabal of the Black Heart is actually REALLY good   Sat Mar 31 2018, 12:02

I will play 1 Black Heart Patrol in bigger games, when I reach out of 6 patrols.

If you want to max out your CPs, play 5 patrols of Coven, 1 patrol of Black Heart.

You have 11 CP. For each 5 Haemies, you spend 1 CP to regain 1d3. You then have between 11 and 21 CP. Everytime you or your opponent spend one, you regain it on a 6.

That"s a whole lot of CPs.

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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: Kabal of the Black Heart is actually REALLY good   Sat Mar 31 2018, 12:03

@Mppqlmd wrote:
For each 5 Haemies, you spend 1 CP to regain 1d3.

What is this from?
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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: Kabal of the Black Heart is actually REALLY good   Sat Mar 31 2018, 12:07

Spend 1 CP to give a WL trait.

Pick the WL trait that gives a Reroll, and +1d3 CP.

Profit.

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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: Kabal of the Black Heart is actually REALLY good   Sat Mar 31 2018, 14:26

Hmm. I hadn't considered that you could repeatedly use that strat, it feels like something that's intended to be one use only.
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Crazy_Ivan
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PostSubject: Re: Kabal of the Black Heart is actually REALLY good   Sat Mar 31 2018, 15:40

@Burnage wrote:
Hmm. I hadn't considered that you could repeatedly use that strat, it feels like something that's intended to be one use only.
It's doesn't say one use per battle
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Alezya
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PostSubject: Re: Kabal of the Black Heart is actually REALLY good   Sat Mar 31 2018, 17:50

Isn't the number of warlords limited to 3?
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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Kabal of the Black Heart is actually REALLY good   Sat Mar 31 2018, 18:48

You can't have several Haemonculus with that trait. Only one warlord trait. You can have the Archon warlord and a Succubus and an Haemonculus with the additional trait due to the stratagem
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Lord Asvaldir
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PostSubject: Re: Kabal of the Black Heart is actually REALLY good   Sat Mar 31 2018, 19:15

I think that needs to be faqed to once per battle, that seems pretty ridiculous.

I will say though that black heart definetly seems less terrible than we initially thought. In addition to the solid trait and stratagem, black heart also has a relic that gives your archon a reroll 1s to wound aura, so another reason for black heart. Definitely solid for a small patrol detachment or spearhead of ravagers as has been pointed out elsewhere.

Personally though I have my heart set on a pure flayed skull detachment, their trait just seems too fun to me.

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Orasann
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PostSubject: Re: Kabal of the Black Heart is actually REALLY good   Sat Mar 31 2018, 19:58

Tbh even as a main detachment, I think black heart will be perfectly fine. As easy as it is to get wrapped up on "oh we get reroll charges and +1 to hit earlier on kabalites, that sucks!" it ALSO means you get fearless in turn 3 (which is when I would expect most of my raiders to be popped and infantry slogging it around)

Not to mention the 6+++ on vehicles is just gravy, even gunboats and venoms want that, not just ravagers.

Aside from the fact that agents of vect and the WL trait are stupid good, black heart seems solid, far more than the two flavours of better splinter weapons from flayed skull and poisoned tongue (though flayed skull movement bonus is nice) Obsidian rose though... depending on your playstyle, being able to play around aggressive rapid fire/blaster range with more safety will be hard to pass up, pity their stratagem sucks (as hilarious as it is)


oh and as an aside, no you cant field triple haemonculus and get 3D3 command points, the three warlord trait stratagem specifically states "up to one haemonculus and up to one succubus" in addition to the mandatory archon with a trait
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Dalakh
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PostSubject: Re: Kabal of the Black Heart is actually REALLY good   Sat Mar 31 2018, 20:20

@Orasann

While you make a lot of good points about BH I feel you are entirely missing the real point of Flayed Skull. I don't know about you but I face a ton of bloody marines in their damn cover and that quasi AP on your saturation (AP-2 D6 shots Shredders anyone ?) looks damn JUICY.

Now, granted, that is not much marine killing vs 125 pts Ravs putting out 9 S5 AP-3(4!) D2 reroll 1 to hit
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Orasann
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PostSubject: Re: Kabal of the Black Heart is actually REALLY good   Sat Mar 31 2018, 20:31

@Dalakh wrote:
@Orasann

While you make a lot of good points about BH I feel you are entirely missing the real point of Flayed Skull. I don't know about you but I face a ton of bloody marines in their damn cover and that quasi AP on your saturation (AP-2 D6 shots Shredders anyone ?) looks damn JUICY.

Now, granted, that is not much marine killing vs 125 pts Ravs putting out 9 S5 AP-3(4!) D2 reroll 1 to hit

Yeah but again it only really applies to splinter weapons, shredders wouldn't get the rerolls of 1 they aren't rapid fire, only the ignores cover. Darklight weapons don't really need the ignore cover, since they tend to target things that stand outside of cover (I.e vehicles, termies, monsters etc.). so ravagers, only REALLY gain the extra movement in most cases, unless you go dissies, then yes the ignores cover is beautiful.

I think a lot of our abilty to clear cover humping units out will come from masses of wyches throwing down a disgusting amount of attacks more than anything, don't get me wrong, I love splinter weapons, but they were hardly ever the best gun in the game for clearing hordes or infantry, even when those space marines only got a 3+ in 7th.
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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: Kabal of the Black Heart is actually REALLY good   Sat Mar 31 2018, 20:33

Also, if you want to gain access to the Black Heart stratagem... just play an Air wing detachment (6+++ on planes is good) and you can use Black Heart stratagems.

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Lyceus
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PostSubject: Re: Kabal of the Black Heart is actually REALLY good   Sat Mar 31 2018, 20:34

I will try out a black heart brigade!

3 footsloggin archons giving reroll 1s to hit to venoms and deepstriking ravagers.

6 venoms + 6 Kabalite warrior units
3x5 mandrakes
3x5 scourges
3 ravagers

18 drops / 6 natural deepstrike 3CP for 3 ravagers

First turn its a little castle situation with the reroll of 1s to wound around the archon with the relic.

Possible some kabalites do some screening and benefit from the rerolls as well.

All vehicles 6+++. I like it Smile

To spice it up i might drop some venoms for some reavers for first turn charges.



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yellabelly
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PostSubject: Re: Kabal of the Black Heart is actually REALLY good   Sat Mar 31 2018, 21:03

@Mppqlmd wrote:
Also, if you want to gain access to the Black Heart stratagem... just play an Air wing detachment (6+++ on planes is good) and you can use Black Heart stratagems.

That's an idea, although I do feel an archon babysitting ravagers for re-roll 1's to hit AND wound, whilst regenerating CP's and keeping out of the thick of the action as your warlord has a certain amount of merit to it.

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Alezya
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PostSubject: Re: Kabal of the Black Heart is actually REALLY good   Sun Apr 01 2018, 09:41

1 BH Archon and 3 to 6 Ravagers. Booyah!
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LordSplata
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PostSubject: Re: Kabal of the Black Heart is actually REALLY good   Mon Apr 02 2018, 22:49

If you are rerollling 1's on both hit and wounds for your ravagers then that is an increase of effectiveness of 36%.
Not as good as rowboat, but a damn sight cheaper!
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PostSubject: Re: Kabal of the Black Heart is actually REALLY good   Mon Apr 02 2018, 22:58

Well BH Archon with reroll 1s for hit and wound + DC-Ravagers is really solid
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Kabal of the Black Heart is actually REALLY good   Tue Apr 03 2018, 09:57

@kicu wrote:
Well BH Archon with reroll 1s for hit and wound + DC-Ravagers is really solid

Yeah, all my lists so far have included a BH Spearhead with Labyrinthine Cunning WL trait, relic to re-roll 1's to wound and as many ravagers as I can afford. It seems too good a combo to miss out on as I'd be taking all those units anyway!

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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: Kabal of the Black Heart is actually REALLY good   Tue Apr 03 2018, 09:59

I'm curious : how often did you use the Agents of Vect ? How much of a psychological impact was it (when you used it, and when you don't) ?

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Kabal of the Black Heart is actually REALLY good   Tue Apr 03 2018, 10:06

Not got past the list-building stage at this point. Hoping to get some games in on Saturday.

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Dalakh
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PostSubject: Re: Kabal of the Black Heart is actually REALLY good   Tue Apr 03 2018, 10:55

@Mppqlmd wrote:
I'm curious : how often did you use the Agents of Vect ? How much of a psychological impact was it (when you used it, and when you don't) ?

If my opponent was going to use something crucial like Shaaneshi cacophony on a fat stack of DSed Obliterators or forwarned on a blob of 10 DR I would use it without a second thought, or to garantee a game winning/killing failed save on his Warlord. In most situations though, the threat should be enough, I'd even say don't make it clear you can use it, the impact wil be stronger the first time you do and from then on they might overly cautious of it.
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Guter
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PostSubject: Re: Kabal of the Black Heart is actually REALLY good   Tue Apr 03 2018, 11:59

@Orasann wrote:
oh and as an aside, no you cant field triple haemonculus and get 3D3 command points, the three warlord trait stratagem specifically states "up to one haemonculus and up to one succubus" in addition to the mandatory archon with a trait

...or maybe you could:



Just think about 6 Patrols with Archon as a warlord and 5 Haemonculi:

Because it is "before battle" you can use this stratagem 5 times choosing each Haemi at a time.

This means 5D3-5 (0-10, average 5) Command Points extra Very Happy

In a 6 patrol army it is an average of 16 CP.


Last edited by Guter on Tue Apr 03 2018, 12:19; edited 1 time in total
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