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Drugo
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PostSubject: Re: Points Changes from BoLS   Thu Apr 05 2018, 11:29

Reading through the codex I've found some little improvements and cost reductions not mentioned in all the article/videos/reviews.
Grots for example didn't go up in points, yes the base cost went up by 1 but the mandatory weapons went down, so they are now 5 points cheaper, with better AP and 1 extra wound... whoop whoop
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Points Changes from BoLS   Thu Apr 05 2018, 11:36

@Drugo wrote:
Reading through the codex I've found some little improvements and cost reductions not mentioned in all the article/videos/reviews.
Grots for example didn't go up in points, yes the base cost went up by 1 but the mandatory weapons went down, so they are now 5 points cheaper, with better AP and 1 extra wound... whoop whoop

OH!! YES!!! Tell me more!!

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PostSubject: Re: Points Changes from BoLS   Thu Apr 05 2018, 12:03

@amishprn86 wrote:
@Drugo wrote:
Reading through the codex I've found some little improvements and cost reductions not mentioned in all the article/videos/reviews.
Grots for example didn't go up in points, yes the base cost went up by 1 but the mandatory weapons went down, so they are now 5 points cheaper, with better AP and 1 extra wound... whoop whoop

OH!! YES!!! Tell me more!!

Hmmm ask me anything?

In no particular order or reason:
- Court of the Archon units DO have the Kabal keyword, I remember someone saying otherwise.
- Sslyths went down to 27 points (nice) but lost 1 wound (bad)
- Urghul and Lhamaean both went down to 15
- Archon is 70 points unfortunately, at least the huskblade is down to 6 points..
- Razorwing flocks are 12 points, so still not great in my book.
- On the plus side, beastmasters are 36 as opposed to 56
- There's a couple stratagems for grenades, d3 mortal wounds on a vehicle chucking a plasma nade for 1 cp and d3 mortal wounds after hitting with a beanbag (phantasm launcher) if you roll above Ld, neither are particularly impressive but any source of MW is welcome.
- Poisoned tongue was pretty low in my book but the stratagem is quite good, redeploy 3 units (transports and unit inside count as 1) before the 1st turn starts.
- Liquifiers are 11, ossefactor 7, hexrifles 5
- Voidraven is 155 as mentioned and missiles are 10 points
- Succubi, Lelith, Drazhar and Urien still have less attacks than a standard Haemonculus for some reason... Also Urien is puss, down to 90 but no real means to cause damage, +1 S and T bubble is nice though.
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RedRegicide
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PostSubject: Re: Points Changes from BoLS   Thu Apr 05 2018, 12:08

Khynera still 10? Fiends still 32? Thanks man, that’s good news about my beast master and birds

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PostSubject: Re: Points Changes from BoLS   Thu Apr 05 2018, 12:10

What is Drahzar points?

ALso RWF are better IMO, 2pts less with ap attacks now (yeah its less attacks but ap makes a huge difference)

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Drugo
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PostSubject: Re: Points Changes from BoLS   Thu Apr 05 2018, 12:26

Yes, all beasts I haven't mentioned are the same.
Drazhar is still a no thanks for me, 120 points, Lelith 80, Urien 90, succubus 50 (whoop whop), haemi 70 and the electrocorrosive whip is down 2 points
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Points Changes from BoLS   Thu Apr 05 2018, 12:30

@Drugo wrote:
Yes, all beasts I haven't mentioned are the same.
Drazhar is still a no thanks for me, 120 points, Lelith 80, Urien 90, succubus 50 (whoop whop), haemi 70 and the electrocorrosive whip is down 2 points

120pts!..... how yeah No thanks, 2 Succubi are that much and i'd rahter spend the points on the 2hd HQ for a Battalion, so what if he attacks 2 times, he doesnt do anything else that is good, he needs a transport and still isnt very strong at S4/S5 for a 120 point character

Well... unless did get get an extra attack?, b.c then the Single blade would be worth using IMO, otherwise Double Blades for the +2 attacks will translate into +4 attacks (yeah S4 vs S5 but +4 is better b.c more chances to get 6's to wound for even more attacks).

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Points Changes from BoLS   Thu Apr 05 2018, 12:33

@Drugo wrote:
Yes, all beasts I haven't mentioned are the same.
Drazhar is still a no thanks for me, 120 points, Lelith 80, Urien 90, succubus 50 (whoop whop), haemi 70 and the electrocorrosive whip is down 2 points

So the EC Whip was our best melee weapon and they reduced the points cost, whilst the succubus is still stuck with a weapon that gives -1 to hit for no apparent reason and that actively mucks up one of her warlord traits? Evil or Very Mad

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PostSubject: Re: Points Changes from BoLS   Thu Apr 05 2018, 12:40

@Count Adhemar wrote:
@Drugo wrote:
Yes, all beasts I haven't mentioned are the same.
Drazhar is still a no thanks for me, 120 points, Lelith 80, Urien 90, succubus 50 (whoop whop), haemi 70 and the electrocorrosive whip is down 2 points

So the EC Whip was our best melee weapon and they reduced the points cost, whilst the succubus is still stuck with a weapon that gives -1 to hit for no apparent reason and that actively mucks up one of her warlord traits? Evil or Very Mad


Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad

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Drugo
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PostSubject: Re: Points Changes from BoLS   Thu Apr 05 2018, 12:44

@amishprn86 wrote:
@Drugo wrote:
Yes, all beasts I haven't mentioned are the same.
Drazhar is still a no thanks for me, 120 points, Lelith 80, Urien 90, succubus 50 (whoop whop), haemi 70 and the electrocorrosive whip is down 2 points

120pts!..... how yeah No thanks, 2 Succubi are that much and i'd rahter spend the points on the 2hd HQ for a Battalion, so what if he attacks 2 times, he doesnt do anything else that is good, he needs a transport and still isnt very strong at S4/S5 for a 120 point character

Well... unless did get get an extra attack?, b.c then the Single blade would be worth using IMO, otherwise Double Blades for the +2 attacks will translate into +4 attacks (yeah S4 vs S5 but +4 is better b.c more chances to get 6's to wound for even more attacks).

Still 4 attacks base, still 2 extra attacks for the double blades. He's no different from a Klaivex except for the bubble and the attack twice thing, however for less than 120 points you can have 6 incubi + klaivex so...
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Points Changes from BoLS   Thu Apr 05 2018, 12:45

@amishprn86 wrote:
@Count Adhemar wrote:
@Drugo wrote:
Yes, all beasts I haven't mentioned are the same.
Drazhar is still a no thanks for me, 120 points, Lelith 80, Urien 90, succubus 50 (whoop whop), haemi 70 and the electrocorrosive whip is down 2 points

So the EC Whip was our best melee weapon and they reduced the points cost, whilst the succubus is still stuck with a weapon that gives -1 to hit for no apparent reason and that actively mucks up one of her warlord traits? Evil or Very Mad


Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad

Taken from 1d4chan:

Quote :
The crux of the issue: The Succubus (supposedly our dedicated CC HQ) has only four close combat attacks on her base statline, whereas the Archon (supposedly our generic command HQ) has five, same as most other CC HQ choices for other armies. An Archon with a Huskblade can potentially do more than TRIPLE the amount of damage in CC than a Succubus whilst being cheaper and more survivable, and this is weird as balls! In order to make the Succubus even remotely able to do what she is supposed to do (duel characters and/or slaughter small squads of infantry) then you must take the Blood Dancer warlord trait, and either Adrenalight for +1 attack to boost the number of dice you get to throw to a reasonable amount, or Serpentin for +1 WS and pray you roll a 6 or two (5s on Turn 3 and above). Even then, this only makes the Succubus "okay" in CC rather than the badass she is supposed to be, and that is very sad indeed.

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Drugo
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PostSubject: Re: Points Changes from BoLS   Thu Apr 05 2018, 12:50

@Count Adhemar wrote:
@Drugo wrote:
Yes, all beasts I haven't mentioned are the same.
Drazhar is still a no thanks for me, 120 points, Lelith 80, Urien 90, succubus 50 (whoop whop), haemi 70 and the electrocorrosive whip is down 2 points

So the EC Whip was our best melee weapon and they reduced the points cost, whilst the succubus is still stuck with a weapon that gives -1 to hit for no apparent reason and that actively mucks up one of her warlord traits? Evil or Very Mad

Well, if you really want to invest into that particular trait you have a MUCH improved glaive as an artefact, +3 S instead of +2, and damage d3, with no penalties to hit. Or the agoniser that gives +3 attacks base which gives you even more chances to generate extra attacks. Turn 3 onward you'd be looking at aprox 11 attacks...
Also she's 20 points cheaper, what's not to like.
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PostSubject: Re: Points Changes from BoLS   Thu Apr 05 2018, 12:56

@Drugo wrote:
Also she's 20 points cheaper, what's not to like.

Her base stats?
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PostSubject: Re: Points Changes from BoLS   Thu Apr 05 2018, 12:58

@Burnage wrote:
@Drugo wrote:
Also she's 20 points cheaper, what's not to like.

Her base stats?

you mean you don't like the base stats?


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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Points Changes from BoLS   Thu Apr 05 2018, 12:58

@Drugo wrote:
@Count Adhemar wrote:
@Drugo wrote:
Yes, all beasts I haven't mentioned are the same.
Drazhar is still a no thanks for me, 120 points, Lelith 80, Urien 90, succubus 50 (whoop whop), haemi 70 and the electrocorrosive whip is down 2 points

So the EC Whip was our best melee weapon and they reduced the points cost, whilst the succubus is still stuck with a weapon that gives -1 to hit for no apparent reason and that actively mucks up one of her warlord traits? Evil or Very Mad

Well, if you really want to invest into that particular trait you have a MUCH improved glaive as an artefact, +3 S instead of +2, and damage d3, with no penalties to hit. Or the agoniser that gives +3 attacks base which gives you even more chances to generate extra attacks. Turn 3 onward you'd be looking at aprox 11 attacks...
Also she's 20 points cheaper, what's not to like.

It's just BAD design. It was bad design when they released Chapter Approved last year and it's still bad design now. Only now we're stuck with it for the foreseeable future. There really is no justification for the glaive having a -1 to hit. There are loads of other weapons out there that are way better and do not have the penalty and would the Succubus really be overpowered without the penalty? It's just frustrating. Incidentally, when this was pointed out to FLG when CA was released, Reece heavily hinted that this had changed in the codex. Guess that was just another lie about Dark Eldar!

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PostSubject: Re: Points Changes from BoLS   Thu Apr 05 2018, 13:01

@Drugo wrote:
@Count Adhemar wrote:
@Drugo wrote:
Yes, all beasts I haven't mentioned are the same.
Drazhar is still a no thanks for me, 120 points, Lelith 80, Urien 90, succubus 50 (whoop whop), haemi 70 and the electrocorrosive whip is down 2 points

So the EC Whip was our best melee weapon and they reduced the points cost, whilst the succubus is still stuck with a weapon that gives -1 to hit for no apparent reason and that actively mucks up one of her warlord traits? Evil or Very Mad

Well, if you really want to invest into that particular trait you have a MUCH improved glaive as an artefact, +3 S instead of +2, and damage d3, with no penalties to hit. Or the agoniser that gives +3 attacks base which gives you even more chances to generate extra attacks. Turn 3 onward you'd be looking at aprox 11 attacks...
Also she's 20 points cheaper, what's not to like.

Yeah... I mean i'm taking her, i just dont know what i want to do yet, IDK if i really want to spend a CP to give her a relic when i dont think she will (even with it) do enough damage for me, especially since i only am taking her to unlock my Outrider detachment and more of a back line/late game CC character

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PostSubject: Re: Points Changes from BoLS   Thu Apr 05 2018, 13:03

Let it go mate Wink , for the cost of 2 succubi now you can basically field 3, I for one don't care much about loosing a couple attacks here and there.
And god knows we need to be able to field HQ's now..
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PostSubject: Re: Points Changes from BoLS   Thu Apr 05 2018, 13:05

@amishprn86 wrote:

Yeah... I mean i'm taking her, i just dont know what i want to do yet, IDK if i really want to spend a CP to give her a relic when i dont think she will (even with it) do enough damage for me, especially since i only am taking her to unlock my Outrider detachment and more of a back line/late game CC character

More the reason to look at things from my previous post perspective then.
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PostSubject: Re: Points Changes from BoLS   Thu Apr 05 2018, 13:09

That we're strongly encouraged to field more HQs now is why it's all the more galling that some of the fundamental issues with them haven't been fixed.
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PostSubject: Re: Points Changes from BoLS   Thu Apr 05 2018, 13:13

Where was that Beast post? I cant find it now, i think i was told 2 different things.

What is it?
1) they take up slots but need a Beastmaster
2) limited amount like court and dont take up a slot
3) both are wrong and i need to be corrected fully

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PostSubject: Re: Points Changes from BoLS   Thu Apr 05 2018, 13:48

@amishprn86 wrote:
Where was that Beast post? I cant find it now, i think i was told 2 different things.

What is it?
1) they take up slots but need a Beastmaster
2) limited amount like court and dont take up a slot
3) both are wrong and i need to be corrected fully

From all I could read the full deal is : You have to take at least one Archon in a detachment to field up to 4 Court models per Archon in that detachment, filling no elite slots if you are battle-forged (no choice on that).
And as a side note apparently court models are no longer characters which is a big nerf imho.

You have to take at least one Beastmaster in a detachment to field up to 3 Beast units per Beastmaster in that detachment, dunno about the fast attack slot filling but prob same as court.
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PostSubject: Re: Points Changes from BoLS   Thu Apr 05 2018, 13:54

@Dalakh wrote:
@amishprn86 wrote:
Where was that Beast post? I cant find it now, i think i was told 2 different things.

What is it?
1) they take up slots but need a Beastmaster
2) limited amount like court and dont take up a slot
3) both are wrong and i need to be corrected fully

From all I could read the full deal is : You have to take at least one Archon in a detachment to field up to 4 Court models per Archon in that detachment, filling no elite slots if you are battle-forged (no choice on that).
And as a side note apparently court models are no longer characters which is a big nerf imho.

You have to take at least one Beastmaster in a detachment to field up to 3 Beast units per Beastmaster in that detachment, dunno about the fast attack slot filling but prob same as court.

That is correct.
I didn't actually notice the missing character keyword on court units, they are still units of 1 though and as far as protection goes, since all the tournaments on my neck of the woods adopt the new rules for targeting multiple characters, that's not necessarily a bad thing.
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PostSubject: Re: Points Changes from BoLS   Thu Apr 05 2018, 13:55

@Drugo wrote:
@Dalakh wrote:
@amishprn86 wrote:
Where was that Beast post? I cant find it now, i think i was told 2 different things.

What is it?
1) they take up slots but need a Beastmaster
2) limited amount like court and dont take up a slot
3) both are wrong and i need to be corrected fully

From all I could read the full deal is : You have to take at least one Archon in a detachment to field up to 4 Court models per Archon in that detachment, filling no elite slots if you are battle-forged (no choice on that).
And as a side note apparently court models are no longer characters which is a big nerf imho.

You have to take at least one Beastmaster in a detachment to field up to 3 Beast units per Beastmaster in that detachment, dunno about the fast attack slot filling but prob same as court.

That is correct.
I didn't actually notice the missing character keyword on court units, they are still units of 1 though and as far as protection goes, since all the tournaments on my neck of the woods adopt the new rules for targeting multiple characters, that's not necessarily a bad thing.

Is he correct that Beasts dont take up a slot?

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PostSubject: Re: Points Changes from BoLS   Thu Apr 05 2018, 14:03

No sorry, didn't read his whole sentence. That is valid only for Court units, beasts don't have that rule in their profile so they still count as FA.

Edit:

sorry, tricky one, they don't have the same entry in their profile but the beastmaster has it for everyone, they don't take up slots either. God that was convoluted.
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PostSubject: Re: Points Changes from BoLS   Thu Apr 05 2018, 14:05

@Drugo wrote:
No sorry, didn't read his whole sentence. That is valid only for Court units, beasts don't have that rule in their profile so they still count as FA.

Edit:

sorry, tricky one, they don't have the same entry in their profile but the beastmaster has it for everyone, they don't take up slots either. God that was convoluted.

Oh BAD

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