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Lord Asvaldir
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PostSubject: Points Changes from BoLS   Sat Mar 31 2018, 05:30

So I took detailed notes from the BoLS video which can be found here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-9cjx1A2QI I think I wrote down everything they wrote down in the video, but they missed a few items.

Archon 70
Heamonculus 70
Succubus 50

Kabalites 6
-blaster 17
-splinter cannon 10
Wyches 8
Wracks-9pts
-Ossefactor 7
-Liquidator 11

Mandrakes 16
Incubi 16

Reavers 19
-heat lance 12
Hellions 14
Scourges 12
-haywire blaster 8

Talos 75
Cronos 65
Ravager 80
-disintigrator cannons 15

Raiders 65
-splinter wracks 10
Venom 55
-grisly trophies 2

Razorwing 105
Voidraven 155

Couple things that stood out to me from the video:

You now need archons to unlock courts, and beastmasters to unlock beasts. The court thing doesn't bother me at all, but the beastmaster change is really going to impact how I use razorwing flocks, as I used to use 5 flocks of 3. I also really hope the beastmaster went down in pts, he used to be around 50pts I want to say? Just too expensive for a character that has about the same attack output as a single hellion.

I really want to try scourges with haywire blasters. They went down to 8 pts, and went upto d3 shots so I'm not sure if they are worth it, blasters are probably more reliable but I think the mortal wounds will be nice on t8 vehicles, and literally half the pts cost of blasters isn't something to sneeze at. Will playtest that to see if it works.

Confirmed trueborn/bloodbirdes being nixed, but 2 special weapons/1 heavy per ten man unit, which makes 10 mans more enticing.

There are some really big pts drops in there, I suspect if I just took my old list and updated the pts I might make somewhere around 200pts which is huge.


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Gorgon
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PostSubject: Re: Points Changes from BoLS   Sat Mar 31 2018, 05:44

I did some quick math on blasters versus haywires versus heat lances in half range on scourges.

Points per wound versus a rhino is 20.57 for a blaster vs 20.7 for haywire vs 27 for HL

Points per wound versus a land raider is 32.9 for a blaster vs 23.88 for haywire vs 27 for HL

Points per wound versus a forge fiend is 30.9 for a blaster vs 20.7 for haywire vs 40.5 for HL

Looks to me like blasters are more versatile, but haywire is better against tougher vehicles or vehicles with invulns, in terms of points efficiency. Heat lances obviously wont be in half range on a deepstrike.

Edit: Added heat lances
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Dawnstone
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PostSubject: Re: Points Changes from BoLS   Sat Mar 31 2018, 05:51

6 points for Kabalites combined with the obsessions & extra special weapons is pretty nuts. Surely one of the best troops choices in the game. Make Eldar Guardians look like a joke.
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TheBaconPope
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PostSubject: Re: Points Changes from BoLS   Sat Mar 31 2018, 06:01

I see the cost decrease in Kabalites entirely offset by the increase in Archons. A Patrol right now costs 93 Points for Kabal. Costs 104 now. Not a substantial increase, of course, and one that's offset mostly by the decreases to transports, but it feels like we took a step forward and two back in that area.

Also, will Beasts still fill Fast Attack, or will their now required Beastmaster take them off the FOC entirely? Same for the Court.

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Lord Asvaldir
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PostSubject: Re: Points Changes from BoLS   Sat Mar 31 2018, 06:12

Yeah guardians are what 8pts? Our craftsworld kin are overpriced compared to how greatly priced our troops are now.

Good point though about the increase in the archon's pts cost. I really don't see why it was needed. Yeah the aura is way better, but it's also still not all that useful since I think it wont effect units in transports. I mean at least I feel like after looking at the traits and artifacts, they are more reasonable melee combatants now, but still considering we have to take a bunch of them to as they are the only kabalite character, it's not great.

I'm not sure about filling elite/fa for the courts/beasts.

@Gorgon wrote:
I did some quick math on blasters versus haywires versus heat lances in half range on scourges.

Points per wound versus a rhino is 20.57 for a blaster vs 20.7 for haywire vs 27 for HL

Points per wound versus a land raider is 32.9 for a blaster vs 23.88 for haywire vs 27 for HL

Points per wound versus a forge fiend is 30.9 for a blaster vs 20.7 for haywire vs 40.5 for HL

Looks to me like blasters are more versatile, but haywire is better against tougher vehicles or vehicles with invulns, in terms of points efficiency. Heat lances obviously wont be in half range on a deepstrike.

Edit: Added heat lances

Ok not bad, my plan to take one unit of scourges with haywires for dealing with t8 vehicles seems like it might not be a bad one. Thanks for compiling that.

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TeenageAngst
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PostSubject: Re: Points Changes from BoLS   Sat Mar 31 2018, 06:21

Can still take bloodbrides and trueborn from the index so that's not a big deal.

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colinsherlow
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PostSubject: Re: Points Changes from BoLS   Sat Mar 31 2018, 06:43

I am thinking that I will want 2 or 3 units of mandrake to help protect against enemy alpha strike and to help Drukhari with theirs

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Trueborn44
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PostSubject: Re: Points Changes from BoLS   Sat Mar 31 2018, 07:02

@Thebaconpope
If you include transports in that minimum I'm pretty sure it'll be offset. Coupled with the fact that you'll most likely be taking multiple venom or Raider units and that 11 point gap will dissapear rather quickly IMO.
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mynamelegend
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PostSubject: Re: Points Changes from BoLS   Sat Mar 31 2018, 09:36

So our Archon Tax got taxier, but there's no way I can complain about it because for being good little boys and girls about paying our taxes we get massive rebates made out to cash?

... Sure, why not. I'll take it. Here's hoping no FAQs or Chapter Approveds spike our point costs back up again when people start bringing a full dozen Dissie Ravagers to tournaments.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Points Changes from BoLS   Sat Mar 31 2018, 09:45

I was about to do this, thanks!

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PostSubject: Re: Points Changes from BoLS   Sat Mar 31 2018, 09:50

Ok.. but i personally hate your format lol (its me not you)

Archon - 70
Heamonculus - 70
Succubus - 50

Kabalites - 6
Wyches - 8
Wracks - 9pts

Mandrakes - 16
Incubi - 16

Reavers - 19
Hellions - 14
Scourges - 12

Talos - 75
Cronos - 65

Raiders - 65
Venom - 55
Ravager - 80

Razorwing - 105
Voidraven - 155

Blaster - 17
splinter cannon - 10
disintigrator cannons - 15
Liquidator - 11
heat lance - 12
haywire blaster - 8
Ossefactor - 7

splinter wracks - 10
grisly trophies - 2

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colinsherlow
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PostSubject: Re: Points Changes from BoLS   Sat Mar 31 2018, 09:59

What do grisly trophies do?

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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Points Changes from BoLS   Sat Mar 31 2018, 10:01

@Lord Asvaldir wrote:
Confirmed trueborn/bloodbirdes being nixed, but 2 special weapons/1 heavy per ten man unit, which makes 10 mans more enticing.

2 special weapons per 10 is awful though. Especially with Trueborn getting the axe.

It's no change at all for Venom squads and equivalent to just taking 2 Kabalite squads in a Raider.

Really, all we're getting is the option for a Splinter Cannon in Raider squads.
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PostSubject: Re: Points Changes from BoLS   Sat Mar 31 2018, 10:14

@The Shredder wrote:
@Lord Asvaldir wrote:
Confirmed trueborn/bloodbirdes being nixed, but 2 special weapons/1 heavy per ten man unit, which makes 10 mans more enticing.

2 special weapons per 10 is awful though. Especially with Trueborn getting the axe.

It's no change at all for Venom squads and equivalent to just taking 2 Kabalite squads in a Raider.

Really, all we're getting is the option for a Splinter Cannon in Raider squads.

Yeah, i agree with this. I'm honestly thinking of (need to check the math/points) either doing All venoms with a blaster, or all raiders with racks, and then doing either Ravagers with DL or Discannons.



I personally think Venoms might have just hit the sweet points spot Lets do some math!
BUT NOTE:!Exclamation!:! I need to look into what obsessions are better too this is just quick math on no buffs!!!


Being 20pts cheaper with 2 cannons, making them 75pts and Warriors being 1pt cheaper (tho 2pts for blaster), 122pts  at 24"/12"  10/20 poison  0/2 Blasters

10 warriors (60pts), in Raider with Splinter Racks and DL (95pts) is 155pts
at 24"/12"  10/20  SR 1.5/3.2 poison,   1/1 Lance

For 33 points, IDK if Raiders Poison is even worth it with a Lance, I would think a Discannon would be better and take Ravagers with DL's instead. This is what i mean, i need to look at the obsessions more and do more math lol.



EDIT!: Im thinking a Raider with 5man Blaster no Splinter Racks and Discannon would by my number 1 pick until i add obsessions, this will make it 127pts. Discannon spam might be godly now wince they are 1/2 the points.

6 Raiders with 25 warriors, 5 blasters, 6 Discannons is 762pts, this is edit:[15 S5 2D with AP shots, that is much more fun to me than 120 Poison shots, and the 5 Blasters are there for a buff to damage.
This will also give me room for characters.

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Lord Asvaldir
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PostSubject: Re: Points Changes from BoLS   Sat Mar 31 2018, 14:55

Yeah the 2 specials/1 heavy at 10 certainly isn't great but hey I'll take it. Makes me possibly want to try a 10 man with 2 shredders and a splinter cannon to see how that works out.

I think something's off with your calculations there, you must be thinking of ravagers. 6 raiders is only 18 dissie cannon shots, definetly not bad but not anywhere near 54. Regardless I actually feel torn on raiders vs venoms now, both seem useful and not overpriced pts wise. I'll also definetly have to be adding some dissie raiders to my force, with blasters being improved so much I don't feel the need to have them all armed with dark lances.

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Points Changes from BoLS   Sat Mar 31 2018, 14:56

@Lord Asvaldir wrote:
Yeah the 2 specials/1 heavy at 10 certainly isn't great but hey I'll take it. Makes me possibly want to try a 10 man with 2 shredders and a splinter cannon to see how that works out.

I think something's off with your calculations there, you must be thinking of ravagers. 6 raiders is only 18 dissie cannon shots, definetly not bad but not anywhere near 54. Regardless I actually feel torn on raiders vs venoms now, both seem useful and not overpriced pts wise. I'll also definetly have to be adding some dissie raiders to my force, with blasters being improved so much I don't feel the need to have them all armed with dark lances.

Correct, i just miss counted, to much math at once.

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PostSubject: Re: Points Changes from BoLS   Sat Mar 31 2018, 15:03

Sorry if this is a dumb question, but RWJF are 105 base without any weapons, correct? So now 145 with two Dark Lances? Just making sure they didnt drop RWJF w/ 2 DLs down 40 points, haha
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PostSubject: Re: Points Changes from BoLS   Sat Mar 31 2018, 15:06

@dygurren wrote:
Sorry if this is a dumb question, but RWJF are 105 base without any weapons, correct? So now 145 with two Dark Lances? Just making sure they didnt drop RWJF w/ 2 DLs down 40 points, haha

Yes.

IMO a EDIT: 135 Discannons RWJF is amazing, i might just take 3 of them for now now. Will depend if i stay with my 6 Discannon Raiders tho, if so i wont and will take Ravagers to save points.

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PostSubject: Re: Points Changes from BoLS   Sat Mar 31 2018, 15:09

@amishprn86 wrote:
@dygurren wrote:
Sorry if this is a dumb question, but RWJF are 105 base without any weapons, correct? So now 145 with two Dark Lances? Just making sure they didnt drop RWJF w/ 2 DLs down 40 points, haha

Yes. IMO a 145 Discannons RWJF is amazing, i might just take 3 of them for now now.

Exactly my thoughts. I generally run 3 RWJF and 3 Ravagers all with Dark Lances now. Will likely take all Disscannons on the RWJF and Ravagers now and use Scourges w/ Blasters to play clean up.
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PostSubject: Re: Points Changes from BoLS   Sat Mar 31 2018, 15:10

@dygurren wrote:
@amishprn86 wrote:
@dygurren wrote:
Sorry if this is a dumb question, but RWJF are 105 base without any weapons, correct? So now 145 with two Dark Lances? Just making sure they didnt drop RWJF w/ 2 DLs down 40 points, haha

Yes. IMO a 145 Discannons RWJF is amazing, i might just take 3 of them for now now.

Exactly my thoughts. I generally run 3 RWJF and 3 Ravagers all with Dark Lances now. Will likely take all Disscannons on the RWJF and Ravagers now and use Scourges w/ Blasters to play clean up.

Yeah, IDK if i even want to use DL's anymore when Blasters are equal in damage, but cheaper and now can be +6" if you wanted or on Scourges with DSing.

I might take a couple DL Ravagers just to have them as a scare tactic

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Lord Asvaldir
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PostSubject: Re: Points Changes from BoLS   Sat Mar 31 2018, 15:11

It's even better than that, the jetfighter is only 135 with dissie cannons. Really all just comes down to what is the most efficient platform for dissie cannons are, loading up on a bunch of raiders, ravagers or fighters. Not sure what the answer is but either way I'm very pleased my dissie cannon ravager is no longer the bad option for ravagers.

Also another point in favor of the fighter, I believe monoscythe missiles are now 3d3 shots instead of d6, not sure about the other missile options though.

Thing is about DL vs blasters, it's only a 3pts difference now opposed to 5. I definetly will take less dark lances but I'm not sure I want to completely replace all of them with blasters.

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PostSubject: Re: Points Changes from BoLS   Sat Mar 31 2018, 15:12

@Lord Asvaldir wrote:
It's even better than that, the jetfighter is only 135 with dissie cannons. Really all just comes down to what is the most efficient platform for dissie cannons are, loading up on a bunch of raiders, ravagers or fighters. Not sure what the answer is but either way I'm very pleased my dissie cannon ravager is no longer the bad option for ravagers.

Also another point in favor of the fighter, I believe monoscythe missiles are now 3d3 shots instead of d6, not sure about the other missile options though.

Thing is about DL vs blasters, it's only a 3pts difference now opposed to 5. I definetly will take less dark lances but I'm not sure I want to completely replace all of them with blasters.

OOPS yeah i meant 135 (30pts + 105 lol)

And if its true about the missiles then yeah, its highly viable now. Cant wait for the codex bounce

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PostSubject: Re: Points Changes from BoLS   Sat Mar 31 2018, 15:19

Definitely making me considering picking up another fighter, esspcially since I'd like to have a dissie cannon one now. Yeah even with pretty much all the information available to us now, it's still going to be a long wait for a week.

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PostSubject: Re: Points Changes from BoLS   Sat Mar 31 2018, 15:24

@Lord Asvaldir wrote:
Definitely making me considering picking up another fighter, esspcially since I'd like to have a dissie cannon one now. Yeah even with pretty much all the information available to us now, it's still going to be a long wait for a week.

I have 4... lol, if anything i'll get another bomber afro

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PostSubject: Re: Points Changes from BoLS   Sat Mar 31 2018, 15:26

Added up my army from all the stuff posted above: dropped about 610 points Shocked Now my 3000 point army is more like a 2500 point one...
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