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Red Corsair
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PostSubject: Re: TTT DE video   Sun Apr 01 2018, 16:53

So far a lot of people are underestimating hellions. Reavers are faster and more durable for their price, BUT and here is the big deal, you get more hellions per unit making that fly by stratagem WAY more potent on a 20 man hellion unit. Couple that with being able to hit and run over the unit your fighting before charging back in or hitting something else and you have a unit that is the definition of glass hammer. 20 dice, mortal wounds on a 5+... Your averaging 7 MW. I say run reavers AND hellions for best effect. Turn 1 they WILL focus on those reavers over the hellions, they don't have a choice due to the reavers speed. This gives more time for the hellions to get there, although, lets be real folks, it isn't as though hellions are slow lol.
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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: TTT DE video   Sun Apr 01 2018, 17:05

I'll be playing Kabalites deepstriking as a first wave, followed by an army of wyches/hellions that act as back-up.

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nerdelemental
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PostSubject: Re: TTT DE video   Sun Apr 01 2018, 20:44

What a strange and emotional thread this has been. Really schizophrenic.

Some of my politically challenging views:

* This has been the most fun week I've ever had with 40k, and ranks up there against other games I've been part of, including some I've helped design and write. The teases and leaks were awesome, deep, and controversial. Tons of fun.
* 7th edition was unplayably bad. This looks super fun. I don't care that it's not precisely what I originally bought into. I'm not 100% happy, and not everything I thought needed to happen did. I'm still stoked and cannot wait to play a legitimately, fun and appropriately competitive DE list.
* I respect the voices of Shredder and Fueldrop very much, and others that I've not seen as vocal in the past. I disagree with early criticism and thought it too myopic and unfortunate to see rage-quit behavior, but I did the same in 7th so I stifled that criticism. @fueldrop, I hope your change of heart is legitimate. I don't always agree with your POV on the faction or changes you want in the game, but I always have valued your insight and wisdom.
* HQ mobility: here's where I'm super different and full of conflict: I don't want skyboards or jetbikes for them. I think that's dumb. Seeing an Archon on a skyboard would be super ridiculous to me. Like seeing a country's president/prime minister ride into town on a skateboard. Dumb. My Archons and Succubi, et al, have awesome mobility options. Now for 55 points they add 16+" of movement, 5 HP, invul saves. With the new crazy cheapness of the Succubi, I'm dying to run a hyper-elite unit of 3-5 Succubi all riding together in one Venom. For 200-250 points I'll have ~4 Succubi on a Venom!? Holy balls. Or 2 Archon with 3 Sslyth?! WTF!
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: TTT DE video   Sun Apr 01 2018, 21:35

@Red Corsair wrote:
So far a lot of people are underestimating hellions. Reavers are faster and more durable for their price, BUT and here is the big deal, you get more hellions per unit making that fly by stratagem WAY more potent on a 20 man hellion unit. Couple that with being able to hit and run over the unit your fighting before charging back in or hitting something else and you have a unit that is the definition of glass hammer. 20 dice, mortal wounds on a 5+... Your averaging 7 MW. I say run reavers AND hellions for best effect. Turn 1 they WILL focus on those reavers over the hellions, they don't have a choice due to the reavers speed. This gives more time for the hellions to get there, although, lets be real folks, it isn't as though hellions are slow lol.

For me i have to DS hellions or they are target number 1, if they are to small a unit its first blood target, if they are to big of a unit its high threat.

MSU Reavers means they will kill 1 for 1st blood and i can have 2-3 others for tie up, b.c i can keep 3man unit out of LOS easier than 10-20 hellions, it will be even easier to keep them alive.

For me, hellions are Beta unit, i would DS them turn 2-3 and a mid(well late) game heavy hitter.

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Hen Tai, the tentacle guy
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PostSubject: Re: TTT DE video   Sun Apr 01 2018, 21:45

I'm also thinking that hellions are a second wave unit. Either deepstriking them or keeping them out of LOS, and then swarming anything that comes too close to your deployment zone.

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Lord Asvaldir
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PostSubject: Re: TTT DE video   Sun Apr 01 2018, 23:52

Depends what the rest of our list is probably. If you have a lot of other fast rush units like reavers you might want to rush your opponent's lines with everything right up front.

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Orasann
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PostSubject: Re: TTT DE video   Mon Apr 02 2018, 02:01

@Red Corsair wrote:
So far a lot of people are underestimating hellions. Reavers are faster and more durable for their price, BUT and here is the big deal, you get more hellions per unit making that fly by stratagem WAY more potent on a 20 man hellion unit. Couple that with being able to hit and run over the unit your fighting before charging back in or hitting something else and you have a unit that is the definition of glass hammer. 20 dice, mortal wounds on a 5+... Your averaging 7 MW. I say run reavers AND hellions for best effect. Turn 1 they WILL focus on those reavers over the hellions, they don't have a choice due to the reavers speed. This gives more time for the hellions to get there, although, lets be real folks, it isn't as though hellions are slow lol.


Agreed, hellions for the first time since the baron (Rip sweet prince) are actually looking rather tasty, hellions with +1 strength obsession and the +1 attack drug (or attack obsess and strength drug) are terrifying at clearing out primaris, outside of dissies probably our best option.

The flyby stratagem is as hilarious as it is unexpected, don't expect it to work more than once though, a 10 man unit might get it if hes just expecting to eat a charge or something, but bear in mind that you cant advance when fleeing from combat, so you cant activate the stratagem either, though it does lead to some interesting results with the advance and charge obsession letting you do both a flyby AND clear out survivors afterwards
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Lord Asvaldir
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PostSubject: Re: TTT DE video   Mon Apr 02 2018, 02:14

Yeah hellions can get pretty crazy when you starting stacking on attack/strength bonuses from obsessions/drugs. Someone pointed out somewhere that hellions can even reach a ridiculous s7 using the +1 strength obsession, drug, and the double the drug bonus stratagem. That would just tear apart almost any t7 vehicle in one round of combat.

That's a good point about not being able to advance when withdrawing from combat, definetly limits the number of times you can pull of that stratagem for a unit like hellions that will be bouncing in and out of combat. Still one good flyover with the mortal wounds stratagem is all you may need, and you can always take reavers as well to utilize the stratagem.

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Red Corsair
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PostSubject: Re: TTT DE video   Mon Apr 02 2018, 03:50

@Lord Asvaldir wrote:
Depends what the rest of our list is probably. If you have a lot of other fast rush units like reavers you might want to rush your opponent's lines with everything right up front.

^This guy gets it.

Nobody is shooting at hellions when they have 10 grots WWP in front of them and 12 reavers engaging their back line turn 1.

That's also not even factoring in the other 50% of the army that hits like a ton of bricks.
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Lord Asvaldir
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PostSubject: Re: TTT DE video   Mon Apr 02 2018, 04:19

O hell yes that sounds like my ideal army, so many threats right in your opponent's face turn one. High risk high reward, just screams dark eldar to me. Man I can't wait for next Saturday when the playtesting begins.

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: TTT DE video   Mon Apr 02 2018, 10:29

@Red Corsair wrote:
@Lord Asvaldir wrote:
Depends what the rest of our list is probably. If you have a lot of other fast rush units like reavers you might want to rush your opponent's lines with everything right up front.

^This guy gets it.

Nobody is shooting at hellions when they have 10 grots WWP in front of them and 12 reavers engaging their back line turn 1.

That's also not even factoring in the other 50% of the army that hits like a ton of bricks.

Well.. if your going 2nd there is noting up front and they will be shot at

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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: Re: TTT DE video   Mon Apr 02 2018, 12:33

@amishprn86 wrote:
@Red Corsair wrote:
@Lord Asvaldir wrote:
Depends what the rest of our list is probably. If you have a lot of other fast rush units like reavers you might want to rush your opponent's lines with everything right up front.

^This guy gets it.

Nobody is shooting at hellions when they have 10 grots WWP in front of them and 12 reavers engaging their back line turn 1.

That's also not even factoring in the other 50% of the army that hits like a ton of bricks.

Well.. if your going 2nd there is noting up front and they will be shot at


... I miss Vect's Seize the Initiative rule. Though technically he never actually lowered himself to Seizing the initiative. He just had it the whole time and tricked the enemy into thinking they had it.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: TTT DE video   Mon Apr 02 2018, 12:35

@FuelDrop wrote:
@amishprn86 wrote:
@Red Corsair wrote:
@Lord Asvaldir wrote:
Depends what the rest of our list is probably. If you have a lot of other fast rush units like reavers you might want to rush your opponent's lines with everything right up front.

^This guy gets it.

Nobody is shooting at hellions when they have 10 grots WWP in front of them and 12 reavers engaging their back line turn 1.

That's also not even factoring in the other 50% of the army that hits like a ton of bricks.

Well.. if your going 2nd there is noting up front and they will be shot at


... I miss Vect's Seize the Initiative rule. Though technically he never actually lowered himself to Seizing the initiative. He just had it the whole time and tricked the enemy into thinking they had it.


Yeah... I really hope he comes back in a special box kit and gets some of those old rules back.

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eae
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PostSubject: Re: TTT DE video   Mon Apr 02 2018, 13:55

So still no way for our awesome close combat units to get to, you know, close combat? Like a 3d6" or +1" to charge stratagem? Well that's unexpected.

The only viable scenario I can think of is this "tie with a reavers anvil, hope your hammer is not off the board by the next turn" thing. It's a great scenario but unfortunately it's situational and it's the only one.

And nope, rerolling charges is not a viable solution, it's 57% chance to successfully change from deep strike using all rerolls available.

God I'm tired of playing pure Kabal lists.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: TTT DE video   Mon Apr 02 2018, 14:04

DE cHonestly DE never has been a turn 1 melee destroyer, we always been a mid-late game melee army with massive early shooting.

You can still play Wych/coven, get into position turn 1, full charges turn 2.

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Lord Asvaldir
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PostSubject: Re: TTT DE video   Mon Apr 02 2018, 14:22

Yeah you definitely don't have to play pure kabal anymore, wych cults and covens definitely work. Reavers are probably really the only unit getting into combat turn one to tie things up, everything else can wait a turn or two, plus there's always the sweet +1 to hit bonus turn 3. I don't think we necessarily needed a 3d6 charge range stratagem, with raiders being cheap now it's easy to load them up with a few wyches.

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Samrael
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PostSubject: Re: TTT DE video   Mon Apr 02 2018, 14:56

What's the chance that Vect actually comes with new model and rules to 8th edition? Very slim I say, as are other new drukhari models. Traditionally new stuff has arrived hand in hand with new codexies and sadly that is not the case with us. More than happy with the new codex but yeah, would have been nice to get vect or some other special archon model with the new codex.
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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: TTT DE video   Mon Apr 02 2018, 15:01

@Samrael wrote:
What's the chance that Vect actually comes with new model and rules to 8th edition? Very slim I say, as are other new drukhari models. Traditionally new stuff has arrived hand in hand with new codexies and sadly that is not the case with us. More than happy with the new codex but yeah, would have been nice to get vect or some other special archon model with the new codex.

I don't think it's the case that new stuff is only going to happen side-by-side with codexes, if for no other reason than soon every faction will already have a codex. New stuff will continue getting released, probably related to campaign books or new "starter set/board game" boxes.

Some kind of anti-Ynnari triumvirate box would be a pretty realistic way of seeing a Vect model.
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Lord Asvaldir
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PostSubject: Re: TTT DE video   Mon Apr 02 2018, 15:21

Any speculating about a Vect release or new DE models honestly seems pretty pointless, no one has any idea if it's going to happen or not. What we can say for sure is it's almost certainly not happening this year, it will still take I estimate until maybe August/September to finish releasing all the new codexes and then I imagine there's also going to be some new armies they will introduce that will probably sell better than any potential Vect release, like a seperate World Eaters codex an Angron model. I'd love to see Vect but got to face it that Dark Eldar are probably near the bottom of the pile in terms of popularity.

Plus on a positive note, we have so much to work with now with our new codex, who needs new models right now.

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TheBaconPope
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PostSubject: Re: TTT DE video   Mon Apr 02 2018, 15:31

Quote :
Any speculating about a Vect release or new DE models honestly seems pretty pointless, no one has any idea if it's going to happen or not. What we can say for sure is it's almost certainly not happening this year, it will still take I estimate until maybe August/September to finish releasing all the new codexes and then I imagine there's also going to be some new armies they will introduce that will probably sell better than any potential Vect release, like a seperate World Eaters codex an Angron model. I'd love to see Vect but got to face it that Dark Eldar are probably near the bottom of the pile in terms of popularity.

Most of the rumors I've seen say that there's a big Ork release slated for later this year. We all know Plastic Sisters are coming. Plus there's some speculation (If GW hasn't confirmed it) that Knights are getting a new kit too)

It seems like GW is full for new models

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PostSubject: Re: TTT DE video   Mon Apr 02 2018, 15:39

@Red Corsair wrote:
So far a lot of people are underestimating hellions. Reavers are faster and more durable for their price, BUT and here is the big deal, you get more hellions per unit making that fly by stratagem WAY more potent on a 20 man hellion unit. Couple that with being able to hit and run over the unit your fighting before charging back in or hitting something else and you have a unit that is the definition of glass hammer. 20 dice, mortal wounds on a 5+... Your averaging 7 MW. I say run reavers AND hellions for best effect. Turn 1 they WILL focus on those reavers over the hellions, they don't have a choice due to the reavers speed. This gives more time for the hellions to get there, although, lets be real folks, it isn't as though hellions are slow lol.

If you want the Mortal Wound drop like that, you may be better off going Voidraven (assuming the price is right). That's 10 dice putting out mortals on a 3, or 3 dice per Vehicle/Monster (Kastellans anyone?) on a cheaper and more durable platform.

Granted, I don't know the cost of the Voidraven or whether the missiles are still not worth taking or if they've improved.

Besides, with the Dissie price drop and poison's interaction with Obsessions, we're not exactly hurting for output on the targets this is most effective against, which is power suit homies and demons.

Regarding getting our assault units into combat, you can just Screaming Jets a Raider into a safe-ish place for a Turn 2 charge. If you really need to charge Turn 1 there's Reavers for that to tie up on the cheap.

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PostSubject: Re: TTT DE video   Mon Apr 02 2018, 15:49

@eae wrote:
So still no way for our awesome close combat units to get to, you know, close combat? Like a 3d6" or +1" to charge stratagem? Well that's unexpected.

The only viable scenario I can think of is this "tie with a reavers anvil, hope your hammer is not off the board by the next turn" thing. It's a great scenario but unfortunately it's situational and it's the only one.

And nope, rerolling charges is not a viable solution, it's 57% chance to successfully change from deep strike using all rerolls available.

God I'm tired of playing pure Kabal lists.

No way exept moving 14" , get the crescendo rule and reroll charge and advance dice yes .
If thats not fast for you well i dont know what you want.

And actually you can get them +move with the good drug and the good stratagem + we dont know all the stratageme yet
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the_scotsman
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PostSubject: Re: TTT DE video   Mon Apr 02 2018, 17:05

Did we ever get a confirmation of what Grisly Trophies do? All I can find is a point cost for them. They're new things right?
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Quauchtemoc
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PostSubject: Re: TTT DE video   Mon Apr 02 2018, 17:06

@the_scotsman wrote:
Did we ever get a confirmation of what Grisly Trophies do? All I can find is a point cost for them. They're new things right?

Thats not the -1 Cd aura on vehicule ?
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: TTT DE video   Mon Apr 02 2018, 17:09

whats a Cd aura?

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