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Dark Elf Dave
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PostSubject: Re: Codex Drukhari Preview: Stratagems   Fri Mar 30 2018, 16:37

First thoughts, WTF Cricible is dead to me now!

Second thoughts, oh well cheaper Haemy fingers crossed and if I'm being honest...Crucible was either weak as piss or OP depending on the army you faced. It didn't feel balanced. Now 2CP I think fits well...for the most time simply don't use it, but when the time is right 2CP won't feel expensive. I've calmed down about it now.
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TeenageAngst
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PostSubject: Re: Codex Drukhari Preview: Stratagems   Fri Mar 30 2018, 16:38

@Red Corsair wrote:
@TeenageAngst wrote:
Quote :
No offense, but if you found a suitcase full of cash you would still complain that the suitcase wasn't in style.

I may be pedantic but I'm rarely wrong.

Fools always tend to think that.

Let's break this cost down here for a minute.

You need an Archon and a unit of warriors, so about 100 points spent minimum for that patrol detachment, or 5% of your army at 2000 points.

That's 1 detachment though and in a competitive game you're only allowed 3, and no more than 2 of the same type.

So the overall cost of the stratagem is, at minimum, 1/3rd of your detachments, 5% of your army, and 3 command points.

STEEP.

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Dark Elf Dave
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PostSubject: Re: Codex Drukhari Preview: Stratagems   Fri Mar 30 2018, 16:43

I've said from the beginning of these leaks I was going with Black Heart. I just had a feeling I'd find the offensive obsessions I wanted from Cults and I feel the same way now that I've seen their rules.

I actually said I'm going Black Heart because I'm more likely to use my Kabal tactically rather than offensively in the hope Cult or Coven can cover me offensively.

How much do I really need to buff Splinter Rifles? Not much.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Codex Drukhari Preview: Stratagems   Fri Mar 30 2018, 16:44

And we dont know if our HQ's actually got any better, a Succubus and Haemonculus might only be 8-10pts cheaper, ok.. so i used to take 2 HQ's now i need 3, i saved 20pts from 2 of those, but now i need to spend an addition 60 on that Black Heart Archon, so i'm actually down 40 points from before.

And if Transports are not +1 to the capacity, where am i going to put these HQ's? I already have a problem with 2, an extra one makes it worst.

Until we see Tranports and Kabals gear I think its a heavy tax. (If kabals are 2 special 1 heavy per 5, then i dont care about any of what i just said). Or is Raiders are now 80pts with a DL, it might be worth a 9 man unit in a raider with Splinter Racks and giving that vehicle a 6+++. might not be to bad.

So need more info.

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PostSubject: Re: Codex Drukhari Preview: Stratagems   Fri Mar 30 2018, 16:45

I tried the crucible and it didnt do much for me, even against an eldar army with a ton of warlocks. I think we need to see what our HQ's and other warlord traits are like to see how everything interacts before passing judgement.
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Dark Elf Dave
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PostSubject: Re: Codex Drukhari Preview: Stratagems   Fri Mar 30 2018, 16:48

I'm not really on board when people talk about a tax as if they gain nothing. You gain an Achon, you gain his obsession rules, you potentially gain additional CP.

Life isn't too bad.
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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: Codex Drukhari Preview: Stratagems   Fri Mar 30 2018, 16:50

Quote :


Let's break this cost down here for a minute.

You need an Archon and a unit of warriors, so about 100 points spent minimum for that patrol detachment, or 5% of your army at 2000 points.

That's 1 detachment though and in a competitive game you're only allowed 3, and no more than 2 of the same type.

So the overall cost of the stratagem is, at minimum, 1/3rd of your detachments, 5% of your army, and 3 command points.

STEEP.

That's false logic here. For 100pts you get exactly what you pay for : 5 warriors (that don't get any sweet reroll, agreed) and 1 Archon (that won't get affected by most traits anyway), and you get access to A, a CP refund program, and B, the Vect's Agents stratagem.

"The 33% of your army" argument is possible, but not certain, as the rulebook clearly talks about 6 patrols, it would be amazing to see that they actually continue to enforce the "3 Max" limit

The 3 CP is indeed the real price for this stratagem, but everybody figured that out I think.

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dumpeal
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PostSubject: Re: Codex Drukhari Preview: Stratagems   Fri Mar 30 2018, 16:51

@The Red King wrote:
New bonus pointed out to me by Reddit.  On Agent of Vect you also get to dramatically brandish the card in the air and shout "you've activated my trap card!"

If you so desire.

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TeenageAngst
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PostSubject: Re: Codex Drukhari Preview: Stratagems   Fri Mar 30 2018, 16:52

@Dark Elf Dave wrote:
I'm not really on board when people talk about a tax as if they gain nothing. You gain an Achon, you gain his obsession rules, you potentially gain additional CP.

Life isn't too bad.

Or they could have given us the option to get all our bonuses in a Brigade detachment. Like any other army would. And it would still be tournament legal. And it wouldn't require us to break our forces into tiny fragments. And we wouldn't have to go through mental gymnastics to justify bringing an entire detachment for one stratagem.

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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Codex Drukhari Preview: Stratagems   Fri Mar 30 2018, 16:52

So someone on the GW design team - you know who you are - thought it would be a good idea to make Soul Trap a stratagem. Neutral

Does every Archon carry a Soul Trap with them but forget to use it unless specially prompted? Are our Archons suffering from dementia or something?

Also, for a stratagem that's already a pain to activate, did it have to be so weak? +1A and +1S? That's it? Really? Back when it was a cheap upgrade, killing a character let you double your strength. Oh, but at least this one gives you leadership. For some reason. Because that's something I really need.

You can argue that having it as a Stratagem is better than having it as a Relic, but the point is that there's absolutely no reason for it to be either. Is it really too much to ask that the Archon have a single piece of non-weapon wargear?

Apparently so if Haemonculi are anything to go by. Remember that piece of wargear that gently tickled nearby Psykers? Yeah, that's a 2CP stratagem now. Also, you can't even use it once for each Haemonculus you have. It's just once per game.

All I'll say is that this is a damn disappointing note for the leaks to end on.


Anyway, Lightning-Fast Reactions and Onslaught both seem fine. Agents of Vect could be useful, though the price-tag is hefty when 5/6 times you'll only be delaying your opponent for a turn. I hope we have better CP generation/regeneration than what we've seen so far, though, because our Stratagems are looking damn expensive.
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PartZebra
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PostSubject: Re: Codex Drukhari Preview: Stratagems   Fri Mar 30 2018, 16:52

Black Heart with the strat and the WL Trait makes me want to cackle diabolically, and grow a moustache just so I can twizzle it.

Is it the best? No. Does it encapsulate the maniacal villainy of the Dark Eldar? I'd say so.

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PostSubject: Re: Codex Drukhari Preview: Stratagems   Fri Mar 30 2018, 16:55

Its really good, its so good its game changing for sure.

But b.c its a seemingly must take, some players already hate it, I dont want to take things i dont want to play just so i have the advantage.  Thats why players hate spam, they feel the need to play something they dont want to.

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Bad-baden-baden
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PostSubject: Re: Codex Drukhari Preview: Stratagems   Fri Mar 30 2018, 16:56

@The Shredder wrote:
So someone on the GW design team - you know who you are - thought it would be a good idea to make Soul Trap a stratagem. Neutral

Does every Archon carry a Soul Trap with them but forget to use it unless specially prompted? Are our Archons suffering from dementia or something?

Also, for a stratagem that's already a pain to activate, did it have to be so weak? +1A and +1S? That's it? Really? Back when it was a cheap upgrade, killing a character let you double your strength. Oh, but at least this one gives you leadership. For some reason. Because that's something I really need.

You can argue that having it as a Stratagem is better than having it as a Relic, but the point is that there's absolutely no reason for it to be either. Is it really too much to ask that the Archon have a single piece of non-weapon wargear?

Apparently so if Haemonculi are anything to go by. Remember that piece of wargear that gently tickled nearby Psykers? Yeah, that's a 2CP stratagem now. Also, you can't even use it once for each Haemonculus you have. It's just once per game.

All I'll say is that this is a damn disappointing note for the leaks to end on.


Anyway, Lightning-Fast Reactions and Onslaught both seem fine. Agents of Vect could be useful, though the price-tag is hefty when 5/6 times you'll only be delaying your opponent for a turn. I hope we have better CP generation/regeneration than what we've seen so far, though, because our Stratagems are looking damn expensive.

Watch the Archon maintain his leadership aura - now the extra leadership point is good! Razz
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PostSubject: Re: Codex Drukhari Preview: Stratagems   Fri Mar 30 2018, 16:57

@amishprn86 wrote:
Its really good, its so good its game changing for sure.

But b.c its a seemingly must take, some players already hate it, I dont want to take things i dont want to play just so i have the advantage.  Thats why players hate spam, they feel the need to play something they dont want to.

It's not that it's so good, it's that it's so good without context. There is no reason that patrol detachment wouldn't be in a Craftworld, Harlequin, or Ynnari army and be the only Dark Eldar contribution. It arguably benefits OTHER armies perhaps more than our own atm.

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PostSubject: Re: Codex Drukhari Preview: Stratagems   Fri Mar 30 2018, 16:59

@TeenageAngst wrote:
@amishprn86 wrote:
Its really good, its so good its game changing for sure.

But b.c its a seemingly must take, some players already hate it, I dont want to take things i dont want to play just so i have the advantage.  Thats why players hate spam, they feel the need to play something they dont want to.

It's not that it's so good, it's that it's so good without context. There is no reason that patrol detachment wouldn't be in a Craftworld, Harlequin, or Ynnari army and be the only Dark Eldar contribution. It arguably benefits OTHER armies perhaps more than our own atm.

This is a very good point.

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Orasann
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PostSubject: Re: Codex Drukhari Preview: Stratagems   Fri Mar 30 2018, 17:05

@TeenageAngst wrote:
@Red Corsair wrote:
@TeenageAngst wrote:
Quote :
No offense, but if you found a suitcase full of cash you would still complain that the suitcase wasn't in style.

I may be pedantic but I'm rarely wrong.

Fools always tend to think that.

Let's break this cost down here for a minute.

You need an Archon and a unit of warriors, so about 100 points spent minimum for that patrol detachment, or 5% of your army at 2000 points.

That's 1 detachment though and in a competitive game you're only allowed 3, and no more than 2 of the same type.

So the overall cost of the stratagem is, at minimum, 1/3rd of your detachments, 5% of your army, and 3 command points.

STEEP.


But the problem with that is for one, we know nothing about archons to know if they are a waste of points JUST for black heart trait+strategem, or if they actually have a purpose. 5 Warriors will hardly go to waste, even if you are only taking them as "tax" its not exactly a useless waste of points, just give them a new and improved blaster and sprint them down the board if you don't have 5 transport slots spare somewhere.

"1/3rd" of your detachments sounds way worse than it actually is, if it comes to it, just use a battalion, if not like you are FORCED to use the three patrol configuration, as ESE has even said, in his playtesting, he built armies without using 3 patrols.

Even "3 command points" isn't 100% accurate, its closer to 1.5 once you consider that if you use the stratagem to cancel out another 3CP one, that's 9 total command dice being rolled for with refunds on 6s. not even including the extra points you are going to pick up from 6s here or there from non agents of vect stratagem usages

So in essence, for my money, for access to one of the most powerful defensive stratagems in the game, plus some EXTRA CPs from the warlord trait (even after using agents once), all you are paying in "true" tax, is an archon and one of your three detachment slots. hardly sounds gamebreakingly steep to me.
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PostSubject: Re: Codex Drukhari Preview: Stratagems   Fri Mar 30 2018, 17:05

@The Shredder wrote:
So someone on the GW design team - you know who you are - thought it would be a good idea to make Soul Trap a stratagem. Neutral

Does every Archon carry a Soul Trap with them but forget to use it unless specially prompted? Are our Archons suffering from dementia or something?

Also, for a stratagem that's already a pain to activate, did it have to be so weak? +1A and +1S? That's it? Really? Back when it was a cheap upgrade, killing a character let you double your strength. Oh, but at least this one gives you leadership. For some reason. Because that's something I really need.

You can argue that having it as a Stratagem is better than having it as a Relic, but the point is that there's absolutely no reason for it to be either. Is it really too much to ask that the Archon have a single piece of non-weapon wargear?

Soul Traps are situational at best. This way, I don't have to pay for a piece of wargear that I will likely not use. Also, since it's +1S *and* +1A, it is better all-around, particularly if you take something like a venom blade (a recent GW post regarding scourges notes that you can use the venom blade for your archon), which won't benefit from additional strength. Higher LD will help with the Archon's LD bubble (assuming that he still has it) as well as buff him vs. certain Psyker powers that target LD (like Mind War).


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PostSubject: Re: Codex Drukhari Preview: Stratagems   Fri Mar 30 2018, 17:07

Bringing a battalion detachment of the worst Kabal just increases the tax. It's not like you can throw wych or covens units in it anymore >_>

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PostSubject: Re: Codex Drukhari Preview: Stratagems   Fri Mar 30 2018, 17:08

If tournaments don't at least start to make an exception for us with detachments I'll be surprised. Our army is clearly based around having a lot of them and we'll be unfairly hindered in competitive play otherwise.
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PostSubject: Re: Codex Drukhari Preview: Stratagems   Fri Mar 30 2018, 17:11

@Burnage wrote:
If tournaments don't at least start to make an exception for us with detachments I'll be surprised. Our army is clearly based around having a lot of them and we'll be unfairly hindered in competitive play otherwise.

Yeah. Counting a Raiding Party (min of 3 patrols, max of 6) as one detachment would be reasonable. It's not too different from the fact that battalions and brigades, which are about equivalent to the respective raiding parties, are each one detachment under the current guidelines.
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PostSubject: Re: Codex Drukhari Preview: Stratagems   Fri Mar 30 2018, 17:15

Well, this was kind of a mixed bag. That crucible stratagem is a bummer, but agents of Vect is amazing. Though I'm kidna curious how they didn't notice that editing error.
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PostSubject: Re: Codex Drukhari Preview: Stratagems   Fri Mar 30 2018, 17:18

@krayd wrote:
Soul Traps are situational at best. This way, I don't have to pay for a piece of wargear that I will likely not use.

But instead you have to pay more every time you want to use it.

I'd far rather just pay for it on the models I actually want it on (if any). That way activating it will actually feel rewarding, as opposed to 'ugh, do I really want to waste CP on a flavourful-ish but exceedingly crap stratagem'.

Also, it was just a nice thing to have from a customisation standpoint. Given that we're expected to use more HQs than ever, it would be nice to have more ways to differentiate them mechanically.

@krayd wrote:
Also, since it's +1S *and* +1A, it is better all-around, particularly if you take something like a venom blade (a recent GW post regarding scourges notes that you can use the venom blade for your archon), which won't benefit from additional strength..

Except that you won't use it anyway, because the +1S is still worthless and +1A on 1 model for 1CP is an abysmal waste.

@krayd wrote:
Higher LD will help with the Archon's LD bubble (assuming that he still has it) as well as buff him vs. certain Psyker powers that target LD (like Mind War).

We're getting into whole layers of niche here. Neutral
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PostSubject: Re: Codex Drukhari Preview: Stratagems   Fri Mar 30 2018, 17:19

I think I would prefer to take a Black Heart Archon with all my Ravagers in his detachment so that they all get the 6++.

Because they don't really need any of the buffs from the other Kabal obsessions. Extra speed? Nope. Extra range? Nope. 6++ is best for them because they are a targeted unit.

Some people have short memories. Few months back it was all "poison is rubbish it needs new rules, I hate poison, my Kabalites are rubbish".

Now it's like Black Heart are a tax on my army because I'm forced to choose between them and re-rolling 1's to hit with the worst gun in my army.

Only kidding people I love you really. Black Heart are pretty good though IMO.
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PostSubject: Re: Codex Drukhari Preview: Stratagems   Fri Mar 30 2018, 17:24

Also, Soul Trap doesn't work if you kill with blaster pistol, so careful with that D6 damage son, or you might lose some souls Rolling Eyes

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PostSubject: Re: Codex Drukhari Preview: Stratagems   Fri Mar 30 2018, 17:27

@The Shredder wrote:
@krayd wrote:
Soul Traps are situational at best. This way, I don't have to pay for a piece of wargear that I will likely not use.

But instead you have to pay more every time you want to use it.

I'd far rather just pay for it on the models I actually want it on (if any). That way activating it will actually feel rewarding, as opposed to 'ugh, do I really want to waste CP on a flavourful-ish but exceedingly crap stratagem'.

Also, it was just a nice thing to have from a customisation standpoint. Given that we're expected to use more HQs than ever, it would be nice to have more ways to differentiate them mechanically.

@krayd wrote:
Also, since it's +1S *and* +1A, it is better all-around, particularly if you take something like a venom blade (a recent GW post regarding scourges notes that you can use the venom blade for your archon), which won't benefit from additional strength..

Except that you won't use it anyway, because the +1S is still worthless and +1A on 1 model for 1CP is an abysmal waste.

@krayd wrote:
Higher LD will help with the Archon's LD bubble (assuming that he still has it) as well as buff him vs. certain Psyker powers that target LD (like Mind War).

We're getting into whole layers of niche here. Neutral

But Soul traps are costly anyways, and you always pay the points if you use or dont use it, CP is a good way to save on points and if you ended up actually killing a character you can use it, (more important now if you are using 2-3 Archons).

Ive only every killed a character in melee with DE a couple times with a character, my DE characters are not good enough for that.

Ive have had an Archon fight a Captain for 3 turns and never killing it.

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