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 Codex Drukhari Preview: Stratagems

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Rodi Sikni
Kabalite Warrior
Rodi Sikni

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PostSubject: Re: Codex Drukhari Preview: Stratagems   Codex Drukhari Preview: Stratagems - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeFri Mar 30 2018, 15:56

Agents of Vect is a stratagem to the eldar Soup, not for Dark Eldar. Don't worry, i'm sure that the innary going to use it very well.
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amishprn86
Dracon
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PostSubject: Re: Codex Drukhari Preview: Stratagems   Codex Drukhari Preview: Stratagems - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeFri Mar 30 2018, 15:56

@Red Corsair wrote:
@Mppqlmd wrote:
Crucible was a free item that you could take on each Haemy. Not it's a 2 CP stratagem, and you can't play it more than once.

That's a huge drop.


About Agents of Vect : you're playing Black Heart, you'll have... lots of CP.

Interestingly, your Black Heart WL trait procs when the enemy spends the CP, then you can cancel the stratagem (and get some CP back from your spent), then the enemy gets refunded.

So more procs for your CP-gain ability.

Why on earth would you guys think this was a free item? Maybe they dropped it to help justify making Haemonculi cheaper. It's asinine to really believe that the crucible was free before, it was more like forced wargear. Would it have been nice of them to remove that garbage 4+ requirement OR the range band? Yes it would have been, but if my haemonculi drops 10-15 points out the gate I'll call it a win.

Also, pure madness that people are calling black heart a tax, every list was gona take that guy for the WLT to begin with, now he can shut down critical strats AND gain back CP]s while doing it.

Lightning fast reactions is huge as well BTW. Make a command venom -2 to hit, hell, imagine mandrakes, who are apparantly cheaper and more lethal being -2 to hit now?

B.c it is so bad no one would pay for it, hence it should be free, again... as someone that has used it a very large amount of times, it would never be worth 2cp, at the most i would pay would be 5pts.

The Haemonculus isnt going to get cheaper b.c this almost not used ability isnt on him anymore (Unless GW really is that clueless and thinks its this amazing piece of gear worth 20pts.. oh god i hope they dont think that).

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Red Corsair
Kabalite Warrior
Red Corsair

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PostSubject: Re: Codex Drukhari Preview: Stratagems   Codex Drukhari Preview: Stratagems - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeFri Mar 30 2018, 15:57

@Mppqlmd wrote:
@Logan Frost wrote:
Soultrap not being a relic is golden, you can have a prober weapon relic and still use the soultrap.

Yes. However, it does not work for shooting like said before. It clearly says "fight phase".

My bad, I still don't think it's bad however. 1 CP and there is no restriction on number of times an archon can drink souls.
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TheBaconPope
Wych
TheBaconPope

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PostSubject: Re: Codex Drukhari Preview: Stratagems   Codex Drukhari Preview: Stratagems - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeFri Mar 30 2018, 15:57

Quote :
Also, pure madness that people are calling black heart a tax, every list was gona take that guy for the WLT to begin with, now he can shut down critical strats AND gain back CP]s while doing it.

Eh, we still haven't seen the other nine traits an Archon can potentially take (6 Generic, three faction specific)

I don't think it's fair to assume that's the best of the bunch just yet

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Cerve
Wych
Cerve

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PostSubject: Re: Codex Drukhari Preview: Stratagems   Codex Drukhari Preview: Stratagems - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeFri Mar 30 2018, 15:59

@TeenageAngst wrote:
Those stratagems are pretty weak. Agents of Vect is good but the tax of bringing a detachment of Dark Heart Kabal just to use it is bad. The Crucible being once per game and 2CP is also insanity since it still only does d3 damage. I wanted a hammer and all I got were wrenches.

1 Archon
3 Ravager with fnp 6+


That stratagem is an autowin in a lot of matches!
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PFI
Kabalite Warrior
PFI

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PostSubject: Re: Codex Drukhari Preview: Stratagems   Codex Drukhari Preview: Stratagems - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeFri Mar 30 2018, 16:01

@Orasann wrote:

Its even better than that, say you are using agents of vect to stop a nasty 3CP strat, like an avatar res or something, that's 3D6 refunding on 6s, then the 3D6 from agents, and because those three CPs from the opponent get recycled back into his pool, that's ANOTHER 3D6 over the rest of the game.

So effectively, for 1.5 command points, you are all but guaranteeing you can mess up poor sods master plan of "use this 3 CP stratagem to do something important"

Gets even better, roll a 1, use the reroll strat and try to gain that one back too! I think this is gonna be a tournament worthy strat and you bring up some good points. Black heart is adding a lot of utility this army could use. What does a unit of warriors and an archon cost for you to gain all this, like its fine and just stick the warriors somewhere else then focus on your other detachments.
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amishprn86
Dracon
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PostSubject: Re: Codex Drukhari Preview: Stratagems   Codex Drukhari Preview: Stratagems - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeFri Mar 30 2018, 16:01

@TheBaconPope wrote:
Quote :
Also, pure madness that people are calling black heart a tax, every list was gona take that guy for the WLT to begin with, now he can shut down critical strats AND gain back CP]s while doing it.

Eh, we still haven't seen the other nine traits an Archon can potentially take  (6 Generic, three faction specific)

I don't think it's fair to assume that's the best of the bunch just yet

When you now need 5+ HQ's, in an army for the past 5yrs relied on taking as little HQ's as we can, and not seeing any actual good changed to them so far, you are going to see people question it

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Sarkesian
Kabalite Warrior
Sarkesian

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PostSubject: Re: Codex Drukhari Preview: Stratagems   Codex Drukhari Preview: Stratagems - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeFri Mar 30 2018, 16:05

DE have been turned into the horde Eldar faction. Pretty much all we’ve seen points you to having large units. Harlequin are the elite low model count, Eldar are a blend. DE are a horde. I’m kind of looking forward to this.
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Red Corsair
Kabalite Warrior
Red Corsair

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PostSubject: Re: Codex Drukhari Preview: Stratagems   Codex Drukhari Preview: Stratagems - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeFri Mar 30 2018, 16:05

@amishprn86 wrote:
@Red Corsair wrote:
@Mppqlmd wrote:
Crucible was a free item that you could take on each Haemy. Not it's a 2 CP stratagem, and you can't play it more than once.

That's a huge drop.


About Agents of Vect : you're playing Black Heart, you'll have... lots of CP.

Interestingly, your Black Heart WL trait procs when the enemy spends the CP, then you can cancel the stratagem (and get some CP back from your spent), then the enemy gets refunded.

So more procs for your CP-gain ability.

Why on earth would you guys think this was a free item? Maybe they dropped it to help justify making Haemonculi cheaper. It's asinine to really believe that the crucible was free before, it was more like forced wargear. Would it have been nice of them to remove that garbage 4+ requirement OR the range band? Yes it would have been, but if my haemonculi drops 10-15 points out the gate I'll call it a win.

Also, pure madness that people are calling black heart a tax, every list was gona take that guy for the WLT to begin with, now he can shut down critical strats AND gain back CP]s while doing it.

Lightning fast reactions is huge as well BTW. Make a command venom -2 to hit, hell, imagine mandrakes, who are apparantly cheaper and more lethal being -2 to hit now?

B.c it is so bad no one would pay for it, hence it should be free, again... as someone that has used it a very large amount of times, it would never be worth 2cp, at the most i would pay would be 5pts.

The Haemonculus isnt going to get cheaper b.c this almost not used ability isnt on him anymore (Unless GW really is that clueless and thinks its this amazing piece of gear worth 20pts.. oh god i hope they dont think that).

That's not how things work lol. Just because you would never take it before doesn't mean it wasn't built into his cost.

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Ubernoob1
Kabalite Warrior
Ubernoob1

Posts : 150
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PostSubject: Re: Codex Drukhari Preview: Stratagems   Codex Drukhari Preview: Stratagems - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeFri Mar 30 2018, 16:08

@Tiax_Dalrok wrote:
I think hemonoculus can still have an old CoM thanks to these two things.

https://imgur.com/a/Rhrm1
https://imgur.com/a/aZiAg

*facepalms* As beneficial as the "can take wargear from the index into your codex" is, I have to admit that's starting to get a bit irritating. Why even remove wargear anymore? *sigh* Anyways, thank you none the less for pointing that out. This of course will make the stratagem even more hated.
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amishprn86
Dracon
amishprn86

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PostSubject: Re: Codex Drukhari Preview: Stratagems   Codex Drukhari Preview: Stratagems - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeFri Mar 30 2018, 16:09

@Red Corsair wrote:
@amishprn86 wrote:
@Red Corsair wrote:
@Mppqlmd wrote:
Crucible was a free item that you could take on each Haemy. Not it's a 2 CP stratagem, and you can't play it more than once.

That's a huge drop.


About Agents of Vect : you're playing Black Heart, you'll have... lots of CP.

Interestingly, your Black Heart WL trait procs when the enemy spends the CP, then you can cancel the stratagem (and get some CP back from your spent), then the enemy gets refunded.

So more procs for your CP-gain ability.

Why on earth would you guys think this was a free item? Maybe they dropped it to help justify making Haemonculi cheaper. It's asinine to really believe that the crucible was free before, it was more like forced wargear. Would it have been nice of them to remove that garbage 4+ requirement OR the range band? Yes it would have been, but if my haemonculi drops 10-15 points out the gate I'll call it a win.

Also, pure madness that people are calling black heart a tax, every list was gona take that guy for the WLT to begin with, now he can shut down critical strats AND gain back CP]s while doing it.

Lightning fast reactions is huge as well BTW. Make a command venom -2 to hit, hell, imagine mandrakes, who are apparantly cheaper and more lethal being -2 to hit now?

B.c it is so bad no one would pay for it, hence it should be free, again... as someone that has used it a very large amount of times, it would never be worth 2cp, at the most i would pay would be 5pts.

The Haemonculus isnt going to get cheaper b.c this almost not used ability isnt on him anymore (Unless GW really is that clueless and thinks its this amazing piece of gear worth 20pts.. oh god i hope they dont think that).

That's not how things work lol. Just because you would never take it before doesn't mean it wasn't built into his cost.


It is how it works, if the result of an ability is moot, why would it be valuable?

I can show you 10 other stratagems (you can go read them too, everyone can) that for 2CP can destroy full units.

You not only need the Haemonculus, but it also needs to be within 12" of at least multi "Psychic units", its such a niche item, even against full Psychic armies it normally only does 4 wounds at the max. After using it a large amount of times, i have data to back it up, not an opinion, i have my opinion due to data.

Anyways it is free currently in the index.

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Burnage
Wych
Burnage

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PostSubject: Re: Codex Drukhari Preview: Stratagems   Codex Drukhari Preview: Stratagems - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeFri Mar 30 2018, 16:10

We're treating the current Crucible as a free upgrade option because that's exactly what it is.
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Sarkesian
Kabalite Warrior
Sarkesian

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PostSubject: Re: Codex Drukhari Preview: Stratagems   Codex Drukhari Preview: Stratagems - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeFri Mar 30 2018, 16:14

With how tough Haemonculus can now become, crucible seems devastating to multi unit armies. Even hitting 3 units of thousand sons or grey knights for 1-3 wounds each can be game changing. I’ll miss it being free, but understand the change. It was potentially too powerful against some of those armies with multiple haemonculus, which I think we’re encouraged to do.
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Red Corsair
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PostSubject: Re: Codex Drukhari Preview: Stratagems   Codex Drukhari Preview: Stratagems - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeFri Mar 30 2018, 16:15

No it isn't. That's like saying an iron halo is free on a captain. Your paying for it in his base cost *facepalm*

When you buy a car off the new car dealership do you drive away laughing that you got free tires ROFL?
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Dawnstone
Hellion
Dawnstone

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PostSubject: Re: Codex Drukhari Preview: Stratagems   Codex Drukhari Preview: Stratagems - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeFri Mar 30 2018, 16:16

Don't be too dismayed about the mediocre/situational stratagems people, we've got the important one (deepstrike). Craftworld Eldar also have a lot of forgettable stratagems and they're very strong indeed. Much more important are our units + pricing.
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Red Corsair
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PostSubject: Re: Codex Drukhari Preview: Stratagems   Codex Drukhari Preview: Stratagems - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeFri Mar 30 2018, 16:17

Personally I am still waiting on wargear, our book could have free stratagems that are broken but if our gear remains salvaged from a dumpster fire this book will fall flat.
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TeenageAngst
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PostSubject: Re: Codex Drukhari Preview: Stratagems   Codex Drukhari Preview: Stratagems - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeFri Mar 30 2018, 16:18

@Red Corsair wrote:
Also, pure madness that people are calling black heart a tax, every list was gona take that guy for the WLT to begin with, now he can shut down critical strats AND gain back CP]s while doing it.
Because the units in it are functionally useless outside of the warlord trait and stratagems. The hell do I care if my Warriors can reroll charges or hit on a 2+ in close combat earlier? Garbage.

Quote :
Lightning fast reactions is huge as well BTW. Make a command venom -2 to hit, hell, imagine mandrakes, who are apparantly cheaper and more lethal being -2 to hit now?

Except it excludes a third of the army so...

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Rodi Sikni
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Rodi Sikni

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PostSubject: Re: Codex Drukhari Preview: Stratagems   Codex Drukhari Preview: Stratagems - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeFri Mar 30 2018, 16:18

@Sarkesian wrote:
With how tough Haemonculus can now become, crucible seems devastating to multi unit armies. Even hitting 3 units of thousand sons or grey knights for 1-3 wounds each can be game changing. I’ll miss it being free, but understand the change. It was potentially too powerful against some of those armies with multiple haemonculus, which I think we’re encouraged to do.

seriously? you need roll 4+. You are paying 2 CP for a 50% possibilities to do absolutely nothing. and with the other 50%, a 33% to do 1 mortal wound...
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Lord Asvaldir
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Lord Asvaldir

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PostSubject: Re: Codex Drukhari Preview: Stratagems   Codex Drukhari Preview: Stratagems - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeFri Mar 30 2018, 16:20

@amishprn86 wrote:
@TheBaconPope wrote:
Quote :
Also, pure madness that people are calling black heart a tax, every list was gona take that guy for the WLT to begin with, now he can shut down critical strats AND gain back CP]s while doing it.

Eh, we still haven't seen the other nine traits an Archon can potentially take  (6 Generic, three faction specific)

I don't think it's fair to assume that's the best of the bunch just yet

When you now need 5+ HQ's, in an army for the past 5yrs relied on taking as little HQ's as we can, and not seeing any actual good changed to them so far, you are going to see people question it

Yup agree completely. Even if archons become great I'm still not going to want to take 3 of them, especially if our transport problem for characters remains. I'm definetly strongly leaning towards just 3 patrols or battalion plus one extra detachment, so I'm taking 3 characters max will still having a fair amount of slots.

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The Red King
Hekatrix
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PostSubject: Re: Codex Drukhari Preview: Stratagems   Codex Drukhari Preview: Stratagems - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeFri Mar 30 2018, 16:21

New bonus pointed out to me by Reddit. On Agent of Vect you also get to dramatically brandish the card in the air and shout "you've activated my trap card!"

If you so desire.

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Red Corsair
Kabalite Warrior
Red Corsair

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PostSubject: Re: Codex Drukhari Preview: Stratagems   Codex Drukhari Preview: Stratagems - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeFri Mar 30 2018, 16:23

@TeenageAngst wrote:
@Red Corsair wrote:
Also, pure madness that people are calling black heart a tax, every list was gona take that guy for the WLT to begin with, now he can shut down critical strats AND gain back CP]s while doing it.
Because the units in it are functionally useless outside of the warlord trait and stratagems. The hell do I care if my Warriors can reroll charges or hit on a 2+ in close combat earlier? Garbage.

Quote :
Lightning fast reactions is huge as well BTW. Make a command venom -2 to hit, hell, imagine mandrakes, who are apparantly cheaper and more lethal being -2 to hit now?

Except it excludes a third of the army so...

No offense, but if you found a suitcase full of cash you would still complain that the suitcase wasn't in style.
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TeenageAngst
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PostSubject: Re: Codex Drukhari Preview: Stratagems   Codex Drukhari Preview: Stratagems - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeFri Mar 30 2018, 16:29

Quote :
No offense, but if you found a suitcase full of cash you would still complain that the suitcase wasn't in style.

I may be pedantic but I'm rarely wrong.

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Red Corsair
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PostSubject: Re: Codex Drukhari Preview: Stratagems   Codex Drukhari Preview: Stratagems - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeFri Mar 30 2018, 16:29

@TeenageAngst wrote:
Quote :
No offense, but if you found a suitcase full of cash you would still complain that the suitcase wasn't in style.

I may be pedantic but I'm rarely wrong.

Fools always tend to think that.
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amishprn86
Dracon
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PostSubject: Re: Codex Drukhari Preview: Stratagems   Codex Drukhari Preview: Stratagems - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeFri Mar 30 2018, 16:30

For once tho i was fine with his comment, the Agents of Vect will be played, but players wont like always taking the tax, and we didnt really see any coven stratagems oddly.

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Logan Frost
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PostSubject: Re: Codex Drukhari Preview: Stratagems   Codex Drukhari Preview: Stratagems - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeFri Mar 30 2018, 16:35

I, for one, won't bother win anything black heart.
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