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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: GW list of most improved   Thu Mar 29 2018, 20:38

Yep but they have to pay those weapons. Reavers have drugs and Fo4 vp-1 builted in. And splinter rifles. And splinter pistols.
And now, these Obsessions that are amazing.
I can consider Reavers at 21-23, but lower will be broken imho
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TheBaconPope
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PostSubject: Re: GW list of most improved   Thu Mar 29 2018, 20:39

Quote :
If they were 12pts I rather doubt that, that low of a price for a jetbike model would be absurd.

Mine was a bit more hyperbole than I intended. My point was pretty much what was stated above.price cuts are all well and good, but unless Reavers are changed to actually do something useful, I won't be taking any

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Lord Asvaldir
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PostSubject: Re: GW list of most improved   Thu Mar 29 2018, 20:40

I mean yeah I suppose they could be improved, but I like the models, I like how fast they are and I own 6 that I use more than I should even with the index cost, so if they go down to under 25pts that's enough for me, especially considering the traits.

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Kantalla
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PostSubject: Re: GW list of most improved   Thu Mar 29 2018, 21:19

@TheBaconPope wrote:
Mandrakes are on the most improved list?
That was my takeaway.

My Mandrake heavy list was the top index list at our big tournament last year, and improved AP / points would make them extraordinarily good.

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Lord Xelian
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PostSubject: Re: GW list of most improved   Thu Mar 29 2018, 21:26

i think that talos needs a great buff because i played him 6 times and 6 times he did nothing. he is preatty useless atm but is really good looking in my opinion so i wont that buff
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Imateria
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PostSubject: Re: GW list of most improved   Thu Mar 29 2018, 22:52

I think the usability of Reavers will entirely depend on Grav Talons and Cluster Caltrops, as usual. If they allow us to inflict significantly more damage somehow, along with the buff to Blasters, they may have use, but will need to be 20ppm base first.
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Von Snabel
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PostSubject: Re: GW list of most improved   Thu Mar 29 2018, 22:57

I've had my taloi consistantly be out performed by Spawns. Looking forward to being able to field then, not only cause the model is fantastic, but because they're scary
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PFI
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PostSubject: Re: GW list of most improved   Thu Mar 29 2018, 23:01

Scourges got a small point reduction it mentioned in the kabal preview and are probably 12-13 points
now.

If reavers go to 20, I think 10 points per wound at tough 4 (or 5) with that kind of movement and one poison, 1 bladevane attack per wound would actually be really good in any army, that can reroll charges? If that thing existed now it would for sure be in the meta. Wind riders are just shooting and you always want your cheapest sources of shooting. Plus the doubling of combat drugs on them, just give them +1 attack drug go for broke and use the strat, each reaver is putting out 4 str 4 ap -1 attacks would be hella decent I mean mandrakes are good now for 19 points and do 2 str 4 ap -1 attacks. Reavers would be pretty good with that kind of turn 1 charge reliability
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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: GW list of most improved   Thu Mar 29 2018, 23:09

You're running Reavers by squads of 6.

Do we really want to spend 2 CP to get 6 extra attacks at S4, AP-1 ? Not even counting the 15% mortal wound chance ?

I really want see any situation where that stratagem can be useful... so overpriced.

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Bad-baden-baden
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PostSubject: Re: GW list of most improved   Thu Mar 29 2018, 23:15

@Mppqlmd wrote:
You're running Reavers by squads of 6.

Do we really want to spend 2 CP to get 6 extra attacks at S4, AP-1 ? Not even counting the 15% mortal wound chance ?

I really want see any situation where that stratagem can be useful... so overpriced.

That's exactly my thought. The benefit just isn't there. Maybe if you ran 20 wyches, getting them up to s5 could be Okay? But I fail to see almost any instance where it wouldn't be better just to use the 3cp attack again trait...
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Dizzie
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PostSubject: Re: GW list of most improved   Thu Mar 29 2018, 23:21

Imo reavers need an overhaul and should be comparable to shining spears at their current price.
we know they are getting significant price reduction, so that rules out shining spear type performance.
if they go back to 18pts with current rules, then they will be relegated to tank hunting duty or possibly not played at all since i seem to need less darklight these days, though a 36" threat range is still great with blasters.

However going by the current trend, it looks like all of our army has been redone to some degree, it also lists as a top improved unit, i'm going to speculate and say they are currently 20pts and gained some better rules for their grav talons and cluster caltrops, i bet its more akin to last editions hammer of wrath attacks when charging too, would be an easy fix.
Though what ever it is i'm hoping its built in and not here's some cheap reavers but you'll also need to buy expensive but really good upgrades on this flimsy unit that dies turn 1, cause that's how crap goes lol
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PFI
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PostSubject: Re: GW list of most improved   Thu Mar 29 2018, 23:23

I'm not thinking squads of 6. I'm thinking of minimizing drops and going to a bigger unit. Mind you 2 command points is quite high for that for sure even for 9 attacks. But even 3 attacks is still good base.

Would love to see what kind of point decrease hellions get though. They might end up in a bad position of turn 1 charge? Go reavers. Need cheap source of attacks? go wyches. Never will you look at hellions and go man I want them for my anti tank high strength killing in an army with dark light spam

Mandrakes are gonna be cray cheaper. They already have an attack profile that is highly desirable. Even if their ap is just for melee, cheaper points would be amazing. I could see 16-17 for them. I hope they give a cool stratagem to each of the "mercenary" units

Also can't wait to utilize my tantalus's coven keyword to target characters with its mean guns. Lol priceless. I got a guy in my meta running heavy bolter dev spam and guard mortar spam with guilliman and a primaris ancient who will cry when his banner is sniped out like a chump.

Also the 3 command points to attack again sucks. Its limited by the fact you have to kill something in combat? Charging two units and expecting to flat up kill 1, wouldn't you be just as likely to kill the other to if you could do it with half the guys? I think in practice it's going to be highly limited
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TheBaconPope
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PostSubject: Re: GW list of most improved   Thu Mar 29 2018, 23:33

That Cult strat would be worth it if it didn't come with a risk attached. As it stands, for most units it's worth probably 1

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Dizzie
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PostSubject: Re: GW list of most improved   Thu Mar 29 2018, 23:55


Something i was thinking about, if hellions and reavers do get a lot better and very usable, there's something shifty about building a pure fast attack DE army.
so scourges hellions and reavers all having the fly keyword on infantry models, that would be an interesting take on our Drukhari army, run away, shoot, assault, rinse and repeat.
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shadowseercB
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PostSubject: Re: GW list of most improved   Fri Mar 30 2018, 00:19

Reavers desperately need a points cost reduction, thats what keeps them from being competitive, but otherwise are fine in stats and really good for harassing enemy units. They have a role where the enemy cannot ignore them and that makes them valuable. It would be a nice change if players can put as many special weapons (blaster, heatlance) as they want in a unit.

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HERO
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PostSubject: Re: GW list of most improved   Fri Mar 30 2018, 02:01

So, what are the chances that Night Shields will now be -1 to Hit, and Flickerfields will be 5++?

Which one is better out of curiosity?
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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: GW list of most improved   Fri Mar 30 2018, 02:22

For the "attack again" strat, think about a Voidraven....after the D6 on blaster, I will be surprised if GW will not change the Scythes too.
So let's say, 2D3 Scythes at D6 dmg? Or maybe 3 dmg? I can definitely see how to spend 3 CP for annihilate 2 Predators instead of 1 Smile
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Ubernoob1
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PostSubject: Re: GW list of most improved   Fri Mar 30 2018, 06:46

@Cerve wrote:
For the "attack again" strat, think about a Voidraven....after the D6 on blaster, I will be surprised if GW will not change the Scythes too.
So let's say, 2D3 Scythes at D6 dmg? Or maybe 3 dmg? I can definitely see how to spend 3 CP for annihilate 2 Predators instead of 1 Smile

I would love to see the dark scythes jump to a flat 3 or 1d6 damage and then the void lances be buffes to like S12 double damage to titanic units (yes, that's being stolen from forgeworld macro weapons). Because seriously... I get that dark eldar really don't field "proper" titans. The tantalus is probably about as big as we'll get or really even need per say, if we got some pure gunboats that size though somewhere down the road it'd be nice. But for nice it'd just be nice (not really required per say) that we got our gun that's supposed to be our second most powerful weapon after the void mine (which is on the same vehicle...) and has in the past been described as being low grade space ship classed weaponry.

...I'm sorry, but necron heavy destroyers carry the same dang thing ansdlast I checked their players were still unimpressed by them. So...yeah...
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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: GW list of most improved   Fri Mar 30 2018, 07:23

You don't have to multicharge to use the strife stratagem. You can consolidate, then use it, then pile in, then attack. That's 6' of free mvt to find a new target.

And using it on dark scythe (or reaper, or tantalus) could be cool.

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PostSubject: Re: GW list of most improved   Fri Mar 30 2018, 07:44

I think a 20 pt reaver right now is not bad
for 60 points you get:
depending on the loadout:
1) you get am average charge range of 33 inch and t5 if you just want to keep some obliterators, tanks, reapers etc occupied. this would be their main strength
2) 25 charge range and 4 attacks s4 ap-1 12 s4 ap-1 attacks with 25 inch charge (here you might wish to invest in some extra's for more damage)

I am really worried about the mandrakes actually.
I think they improved their melee (with ap and a point reduction) and killed their ranged attacks or defenses, I think this is an "improved but now worse than before situation" since if they really got a point reduction and more ap and stayed the same otherwise they are getting really really good.

Talos, it needed a boost, I wonder if it just became an affordable though monster or actually gained some much needed punch.

No great improvements for hellions? They needed it way more than mandrakes.

I think the double drug stratagem is quite nice to have but highly situational (doubling a movement boost if you just need that extra range, or just that bit of extra punch for the unit of 20 cursed blade wyches to wound on a 4 instead of a 5 (you can get str 6 wyches they will eat light tanks for breakfast)
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Barrywise
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PostSubject: Re: GW list of most improved   Fri Mar 30 2018, 08:17

So um. Correct me if I'm wrong...

Using a weapon you have to use the weapon profile right? So Strength 4 blade vanes will always stay Strength 4 unless you choose to not use them and just use the model's "Basic" attacks? Which was why people were complaining about Raiders and Venoms having S4 bladevanes? So it's pretty much always better to give Reavers that extra attack or movement? It'll help get you to the back line to tie up vehicles or encircle enemy infantry so that they can't actually fall back for once...

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PostSubject: Re: GW list of most improved   Fri Mar 30 2018, 08:37

@Mppqlmd wrote:
You don't have to multicharge to use the strife stratagem. You can consolidate, then use it, then pile in, then attack. That's 6' of free mvt to find a new target.

And using it on dark scythe (or reaper, or tantalus) could be cool.

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I disagree with you there. Since you are not allowed to attack something you didn't charge on a turn you charged, and there is nothing circumventing that in the strife stratagem. So you can get the 6" move as you said but you still need to have declared a charge against the second unit in the first place.

If you killed something and you didn't charge however, that's another matter entirely.
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PostSubject: Re: GW list of most improved   Fri Mar 30 2018, 08:47

@Barrywise wrote:
So um. Correct me if I'm wrong...

Using a weapon you have to use the weapon profile right? So Strength 4 blade vanes will always stay Strength 4 unless you choose to not use them and just use the model's "Basic" attacks? Which was why people were complaining about Raiders and Venoms having S4 bladevanes? So it's pretty much always better to give Reavers that extra attack or movement? It'll help get you to the back line to tie up vehicles or encircle enemy infantry so that they can't actually fall back for once...

You can pick and chose between a profile attack and a basic attack. It was in the errata.
So the str of bladevanes on raiders is annoying but now you at least have the option of going with a str 6 attack or the str 4 ap -1. (Previously you had no option you had to use the bladevanes and thus str4 if you had a profile you could not use the basic attack).

For reavers it is still better to go for extra attack movement or thoughness.
The basic str is 3 (at least in the index) and bladevanes make it s4 ap-1. Thus you need at least 2 str boost (drug and passion) to get a higher str, so this is usually not recommended, even if you do have the option to make a basic attack. But who knows maybe bladevanes changed ass well.
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shadowseercB
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PostSubject: Re: GW list of most improved   Fri Mar 30 2018, 08:54

@Dalakh wrote:


Since you are not allowed to attack something you didn't charge on a turn you charged, and there is nothing circumventing that in the strife stratagem. So you can get the 6" move as you said but you still need to have declared a charge against the second unit in the first place.

If you killed something and you didn't charge however, that's another matter entirely.

Correct

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PostSubject: Re: GW list of most improved   Fri Mar 30 2018, 10:43

SUper excited for chesaper Mandrakes and MUCH reduced Reavers.
I may even get my full Reaver army out again!
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