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Dark Elf Dave
Wych
Dark Elf Dave

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PostSubject: Re: New White Dwarf and additional tidbits   New White Dwarf and additional tidbits - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeThu Mar 29 2018, 14:03

If wyches have come down in price and also if the transports come down in price then you might be able to afford being a bit daring with them.

The only thing going over in my head is. OK Kabals could work, and yep Coven could work, and Cults seem cool...but how do i make small patrols of them all work together?
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Bad-baden-baden
Kabalite Warrior
Bad-baden-baden

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PostSubject: Re: New White Dwarf and additional tidbits   New White Dwarf and additional tidbits - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeThu Mar 29 2018, 14:07

@The Shredder wrote:
@Dark Elf Dave wrote:
Completely get what your saying, you have to get that squad into combat, but then you have to do that with every squad in the game.

Sure, but wyches are one of the most fragile units in the game.

@Dark Elf Dave wrote:

A 10 strong Wych unit that charges into an overwatching 30 man Guard blob will of course find there a less than 10 left lol!

Bit of an aside, but do you see many guardsmen blobs these days?

@Dark Elf Dave wrote:

We all know by now that the Raider should make the charge and the unit inside should be making the charge 2nd to avoid the overwatch.  How you do that while keeping all the parts intact is where the skill/luck will come in I guess.

It's not just overwatch, though - it's the turn your raider has to spend parked in assault range before you're allowed to disembark, and then the turn after you charge when you'll be most exposed to enemy fie.

In any case, today's leaks may shed more light on things.


I'll eat my shoe if there isn't a stratagem to disembark after moving your transport.
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Cerve
Wych
Cerve

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PostSubject: Re: New White Dwarf and additional tidbits   New White Dwarf and additional tidbits - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeThu Mar 29 2018, 14:19

Well, I guess as always we'll need to be able to coordinate our assaults. "Getting the transport in range of enemy charges" is something that we need to considerate. It's obviuos that our strike will be from more sides, and with more units supporting each others.
We can't just think about "going straight with one raider and hope". But coordinating our units is something that a DE player should had learned since the past :-/
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Burnage
Hekatrix
Burnage

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PostSubject: Re: New White Dwarf and additional tidbits   New White Dwarf and additional tidbits - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeThu Mar 29 2018, 14:20

@Dark Elf Dave wrote:
If wyches have come down in price and also if the transports come down in price then you might be able to afford being a bit daring with them.

The only thing going over in my head is. OK Kabals could work, and yep Coven could work, and Cults seem cool...but how do i make small patrols of them all work together?

Cults for the in-your-face assault, Kabals for the ranged fire support, Covens for holding ground is probably going to be my general strategy... but even then that isn't set in stone! Cults or Kabals could easily hold ground as well, while Covens might work really well in close combat.

We're looking super flexible at the moment, and I absolutely love it.
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|Meavar
Hekatrix
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PostSubject: Re: New White Dwarf and additional tidbits   New White Dwarf and additional tidbits - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeThu Mar 29 2018, 14:36

Personally I think it might go a long way to making them viable. The damage output of wyches nearly doubled, 1 extra attack base, and 1 extra attack from a faction bonus seems real nice.
That means comparing hormagaunts 5 pt 5+ save vs shooting and 6+ melee 2 s3 attacks
To wyches 9 points 6+ 6+++ shooting 4++ 6+++ melee and 4 s4 attacks, I think they are becoming viable. If they get some stratagem that makes getting them into combat more secure I am happy. They might not be the best unit but they will be viable in my mind.
It also means that people will have to shoot at them since they will kill things roughly 6 marines or 12 guards for a unit of 10 before turn 3. But they cannot beat armies alone, I don't think this is a problem, it is something that our whole army has problems with since we are eldar and have some focus even if our overal focus is drugs, we still need different units for different targets.
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: New White Dwarf and additional tidbits   New White Dwarf and additional tidbits - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeThu Mar 29 2018, 14:49

@Crazy_Ivan wrote:
Will be interesting to see what they have done with the wych special weapons, bringing back the old shardnet that reduced attacks would be amazing.

I hope Hydra Gauntlets are good. I absolutely love the models for them.

@Bad-baden-baden wrote:
I'll eat my shoe if there isn't a stratagem to disembark after moving your transport.

Entirely possible, but that will only help with one unit per turn. So either you're staggering your assault, which tends to be a bad idea, or else you'd probably want a more meaty assault unit (Wracks, Grotesques, Incubi or such) - rather than several cheap ones.

@Dark Elf Dave wrote:
If wyches have come down in price and also if the transports come down in price then you might be able to afford being a bit daring with them.

That's true. I'm having to base my assumption on the current prices.

But yeah, I think all our subfactions would love to see our transports come down in price.

@Dark Elf Dave wrote:
The only thing going over in my head is. OK Kabals could work, and yep Coven could work, and Cults seem cool...but how do i make small patrols of them all work together?

I think an awful lot is riding on our HQs. If they're decent *and* have good mobility outside of transports (wings, jetbike or whatever), then I think it could work.

At worst, you could just split your army - even if it's single-subfaction - into a few patrols and just end up with a couple of extra HQs for support.

The problem will be if our HQs still have no mobility options. Because in that case they'll either be jogging far behind the rest of the army on foot, or else you'll have 4-5 HQs all in the same transport and barely able to support anything (since their auras will all be concentrated in the same tiny space). Or if our HQs are still just bad, in which case every patrol will basically be forced to include 70-90pts of dead weight, which adds up fast.
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Bad-baden-baden
Kabalite Warrior
Bad-baden-baden

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PostSubject: Re: New White Dwarf and additional tidbits   New White Dwarf and additional tidbits - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeThu Mar 29 2018, 14:57

@The Shredder wrote:
@Bad-baden-baden wrote:
I'll eat my shoe if there isn't a stratagem to disembark after moving your transport.

Entirely possible, but that will only help with one unit per turn. So either you're staggering your assault, which tends to be a bad idea, or else you'd probably want a more meaty assault unit (Wracks, Grotesques, Incubi or such) - rather than several cheap ones.

To an extent I agree, but the way I picture it is you have some amazing alpha strike potential. Between this potential stratagem, entire kabals deepstriking, jetbikes that move 24" + charge distance, and an anvil in prophets of flesh, Wyches still play a great role in doing some damage while tying things down. If you bring down the kabal as your hammer and cripple enemy armor/key units, you have 2 units of jetbikes and potentially a unit of wyches to either mop up or at least tie things down. Lot of potential there to at the very least take the heat off of your other units.

This is why I think Obsidian Rose will be my go-to. 15" rapid fire can make all the difference between an easy and hard charge. The stratagem has a lot of high risk, high reward potential. Pair that with Prophets of Flesh to be an anvil that starts on the board out in the open, and your wych cult portion that hides behind LOS blocking terrain.

In 1 turn suddenly your entire army (sans covens, perhaps) are in your enemies face and really doing some damage, even if the wyches are just picking off some units here and there. With my proposed stratagem, they have an average threat range of 32" - they'll actually be able to dictate what their engagements will be.
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Dark Elf Dave
Wych
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PostSubject: Re: New White Dwarf and additional tidbits   New White Dwarf and additional tidbits - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeThu Mar 29 2018, 15:14

I know we were all hoping for a disembark at the end of movement rule, but I wonder if that might be too strong.

Maybe an Advance and Charge strategem - while being able to re-roll both results from turn 2 - that could work.
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Red Corsair
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PostSubject: Re: New White Dwarf and additional tidbits   New White Dwarf and additional tidbits - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeThu Mar 29 2018, 16:58

So shredder, what are you expecting is my question? It's an 8ppm basic troop that has a 4++ in combat and throws out a ton of attacks. Getting wyches there is part of the game. If they got their any easier they would have to cost much more. When your opponent has dissy ravagers, pain engines and bikes on his back edge he probably has a tough choice whether he wastes shots on a cheap unit of wyches.

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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: New White Dwarf and additional tidbits   New White Dwarf and additional tidbits - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeThu Mar 29 2018, 17:07

@Red Corsair wrote:
So shredder, what are you expecting is my question? It's an 8ppm basic troop that has a 4++ in combat and throws out a ton of attacks.

The trouble is that a 4++ in combat is worth almost nothing. If anything, they'd be far better off only getting their 4++ outside of combat.

In terms of what I want, it would be nice if Open Topped still conferred some benefit to assault units.

Wyches actually look decent, but with transports being what they are, I'd rather put my money in a more durable assault unit (probably something from the Coven list).


Also, in the post you quoted, I wasn't saying that wyches were bad - merely that I didn't think they would be amazing anti-horde units.
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Bad-baden-baden
Kabalite Warrior
Bad-baden-baden

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PostSubject: Re: New White Dwarf and additional tidbits   New White Dwarf and additional tidbits - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeThu Mar 29 2018, 17:08

Some new tidbits from Warhammer community:

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Red Corsair
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PostSubject: Re: New White Dwarf and additional tidbits   New White Dwarf and additional tidbits - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeThu Mar 29 2018, 17:17

@The Shredder wrote:
@Red Corsair wrote:
So shredder, what are you expecting is my question? It's an 8ppm basic troop that has a 4++ in combat and throws out a ton of attacks.

The trouble is that a 4++ in combat is worth almost nothing. If anything, they'd be far better off only getting their 4++ outside of combat.

In terms of what I want, it would be nice if Open Topped still conferred some benefit to assault units.

Wyches actually look decent, but with transports being what they are, I'd rather put my money in a more durable assault unit (probably something from the Coven list).


Also, in the post you quoted, I wasn't saying that wyches were bad - merely that I didn't think they would be amazing anti-horde units.

A 4++ in combat is very good. Saying it's worth next to nothing makes it hard to take anything you say seriously.

Open topped isn't an issue with wyches though. I also don't think open topped give plenty. Look at flayed skull if you don\t believe me. I know I wish I could fire meltas from my guard chimeras still.

Amazing anti horde might be a stretch, but then again solid anti horde on a troop tax to gain turn 1 assaulting reavers and hellions that hit like a mack trucks seems more then fair.

EDIT: I also feel like your asking for some tall orders. You want wyches to have a better invuln from shooting then coven units lol. Why bother having coven units then? If you want a durable combat force take coven. If you want to dance on a knifes edge with crazy speed and loads of attacks play cult. If you want to play it safe and shoot from your ride play kabal. Play all three for best effect though, which was clearly the intent of this book. Over analyzing an 8ppm troop in a vacuum is not fair though.


Last edited by Red Corsair on Thu Mar 29 2018, 17:22; edited 1 time in total
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Crazy_Ivan
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PostSubject: Re: New White Dwarf and additional tidbits   New White Dwarf and additional tidbits - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeThu Mar 29 2018, 17:22

4++ in CC is very Good!!
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: New White Dwarf and additional tidbits   New White Dwarf and additional tidbits - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeThu Mar 29 2018, 17:45

@Red Corsair wrote:

A 4++ in combat is very good. Saying it's worth next to nothing makes it hard to take anything you say seriously.

It was good in prior editions. Now? Not so much. The changes to combat make tying up elite units unreliable and, with the improvements in their combat ability, they should be able to do enough damage to weaker units (if they don't kill them outright) to make return attacks negligible - with or without their save.

Furthermore, the changes to shooting, the ability to disengage from combat and the changes to transports makes them even more vulnerable to shooting (and far more likely to suffer shooting before reaching combat).

It's not useless, but it's also far less useful than it was in prior editions, when melee was basically inescapable and they could jump out of a moving transport and right into combat.

It also only helps them when they've already suffered through the most difficult/dangerous part - actually getting to combat.

@Red Corsair wrote:

Open topped isn't an issue with wyches though. I also don't think open topped give plenty. Look at flayed skull if you don\t believe me. I know I wish I could fire meltas from my guard chimeras still.

I honestly don't understand what you mean here.

@Red Corsair wrote:

Amazing anti horde might be a stretch, but then again solid anti horde on a troop tax to gain turn 1 assaulting reavers and hellions that hit like a mack trucks seems more then fair.

But that's the thing - you're literally calling them a tax.  Razz

The previous suggestion wasn't to use Reavers or Hellions as anti-horde, it was to use the Wyches as anti-horde.

@Red Corsair wrote:

EDIT: I also feel like your asking for some tall orders. You want wyches to have a better invuln from shooting then coven units lol.

I didn't say I wanted it, merely that it would be a lot more useful. Because, with the current rules, combat is probably the place where wyches are least likely to suffer wounds.

@Red Corsair wrote:
Over analyzing an 8ppm troop in a vacuum is not fair though.

I know. That's why I'm specifically including their transport - the means by which they actually get to combat.  Neutral

Unless you're proposing that wyches footslog up the board?
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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: New White Dwarf and additional tidbits   New White Dwarf and additional tidbits - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeThu Mar 29 2018, 18:37

Getting troops into combat is the problem for all melee armies. At least we are actually fast and cheap and can deep strike big parts of our army.
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Red Corsair
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PostSubject: Re: New White Dwarf and additional tidbits   New White Dwarf and additional tidbits - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeThu Mar 29 2018, 18:57

@CptMetal wrote:
Getting troops into combat is the problem for all melee armies. At least we are actually fast and cheap and can deep strike big parts of our army.

This guy gets it.

Expecting every problem to be solved for you out the box is not what this army has ever been about, and I hope it never is. Theres been plenty of reason to complain in the past, but wyches seem fine to me now. Heck they seem viable without even seeing a single piece of kit yet. The wargear for this army is more then likely going to get a top down overhaul. If the blaster was bumped, I feel it's almost unthinkable they didn't fix 90% of the other items. The blaster was one of the least offensive culprits.
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Bad-baden-baden
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PostSubject: Re: New White Dwarf and additional tidbits   New White Dwarf and additional tidbits - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeThu Mar 29 2018, 19:00

@Red Corsair wrote:
@CptMetal wrote:
Getting troops into combat is the problem for all melee armies. At least we are actually fast and cheap and can deep strike big parts of our army.

This guy gets it.

Expecting every problem to be solved for you out the box is not what this army has ever been about, and I hope it never is. Theres been plenty of reason to complain in the past, but wyches seem fine to me now. Heck they seem viable without even seeing a single piece of kit yet. The wargear for this army is more then likely going to get a top down overhaul. If the blaster was bumped, I feel it's almost unthinkable they didn't fix 90% of the other items. The blaster was one of the least offensive culprits.

I sort of agree with shredder on this. Either we die outside our transports, or our transports get into a range where they can disembark next turn, but get surrounded by whichever melee unit and die, killing everyone inside. From what I've noticed, out vehicles are flying death traps, and I don't really know a good answer except for disembark after movement. It will still be somewhat a question of getting them into combat between overwatch and the dangers of flying to an optimal position.
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Red Corsair
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PostSubject: Re: New White Dwarf and additional tidbits   New White Dwarf and additional tidbits - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeThu Mar 29 2018, 19:22

I guess we will have to agree to disagree. Again, thats part of the game, having everything worked out for you seems boring. You have plenty of tools to prevent your opponent from assaulting your raiders and trapping models. I mean, it seems pretty obvious to me that the go to strategy is going to be a first wave of reavers, hellion and beasts and the second wave will be boats with wyches. You probably don't want to send a solo raider with wyches up against a unit that is capable of both surrounding it entirely and killing it in combat.
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: New White Dwarf and additional tidbits   New White Dwarf and additional tidbits - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeThu Mar 29 2018, 19:26

@Red Corsair wrote:

Expecting every problem to be solved for you out the box is not what this army has ever been about, and I hope it never is.

Having transports that gave us an edge in getting our fragile troops into combat was never an issue before, why is it suddenly an issue now?
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Red Corsair
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PostSubject: Re: New White Dwarf and additional tidbits   New White Dwarf and additional tidbits - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeThu Mar 29 2018, 19:54

@The Shredder wrote:
@Red Corsair wrote:

Expecting every problem to be solved for you out the box is not what this army has ever been about, and I hope it never is.

Having transports that gave us an edge in getting our fragile troops into combat was never an issue before, why is it suddenly an issue now?

I just don't see the major issue. You can run red grief, you disembark 3" move 8" (10" with drugs) Advance d6" and have a rerollable 2d6" charge. With that kind of reach, if your being surrounded and trapped, you made a mistake. Plus IDK if you realize just how many freaking units we have that can make turn 1 assaults reliably. Again, I think your expecting a bit too much. Raiders still function just fine. They keep those wyches safe from being shot.

I guess your going to need to tell me exactly what you want a wych unit to look like, because right now I am lost. You said you want them to have a 4++ from shooting, but not assault? Or both? Then they need to hit harder, AND reliably get assaults off without breaking a sweat. For how much?


BTW here are two strategies that have worked for me.

Your playing cult, fly 2-3 razorwing JF side by side right in front of the enemy line, fly your raiders up behind them facing broadside. They can't get past the JF's in order to assault and surround your raiders. Or, use a 3 man unit of reavers and assault them, if they fall back they cannot advance or assault. Heck, you can even use a venom the same way in a pinch.
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: New White Dwarf and additional tidbits   New White Dwarf and additional tidbits - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeThu Mar 29 2018, 20:11

@Red Corsair wrote:

I just don't see the major issue. You can run red grief, you disembark 3" move 8" (10" with drugs) Advance d6" and have a rerollable 2d6" charge.

And you could do exactly the same from a Rhino.

Either way, you're still having to park near the enemy for a turn before you can assault them.

You also can't hide behind cover and then hop over it next turn to deliver the wyches, but instead have to simply disembark and try to get around it. Boy, I'm sure glad we brought along these flying transports. Razz

It also means you can't, for example, hop over enemy screening units.

@Red Corsair wrote:
Plus IDK if you realize just how many freaking units we have that can make turn 1 assaults reliably.

Do any of them involve transports?

@Red Corsair wrote:
Again, I think your expecting a bit too much.

You're right. How silly of me to expect Raiders to behave like they do in the fluff, like they've behaved in every prior edition, and in a way that makes even the slightest amount of sense.

@Red Corsair wrote:

I guess your going to need to tell me exactly what you want a wych unit to look like, because right now I am lost. You said you want them to have a 4++ from shooting, but not assault? Or both?

You brought this up last time and I already answered you. Neutral

No, I didn't say I wanted them to have a 4++ from shooting. I merely pointed out that it would be significantly more useful than a 4++ in combat, because shooting is when they're most likely to suffer casualties (hence why I didn't rate their 4++ as highly as you seemed to).

@Red Corsair wrote:
Then they need to hit harder, AND reliably get assaults off without breaking a sweat. For how much?

Are you saying that if our transports are actually allowed to function as transports (i.e. moving before their passengers disembark, as opposed to only being allowed to move after everyone has already gotten off), Wyches need to cost more? If so, then that's your call because it's your suggestion in the first place.

Otherwise, I'm afraid I'm not sure what you're asking.

I believe I've already said at least once, but let me say it again: I think Wyches look okay in terms of stats and cost. The reason I still don't rate them highly because they suffer the most as a result of our wonky transport rules. Hence, I would suggest leaving Wyches as they are, ans instead changing our transports so that open topped helps assault units - which form the majority of our infantry - rather than just our few shooting units.
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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: New White Dwarf and additional tidbits   New White Dwarf and additional tidbits - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeThu Mar 29 2018, 20:18

Quote :
You're right. How silly of me to expect Raiders to behave like they do in the fluff, like they've behaved in every prior edition, and in a way that makes even the slightest amount of sense.

Yeah. I'd expect more common sense from a guy named Shredder who likes to paint and play miniatures about sadistic space pirates. Geez.

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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: New White Dwarf and additional tidbits   New White Dwarf and additional tidbits - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeThu Mar 29 2018, 20:22

@Mppqlmd wrote:
Quote :
You're right. How silly of me to expect Raiders to behave like they do in the fluff, like they've behaved in every prior edition, and in a way that makes even the slightest amount of sense.

Yeah. I'd expect more common sense from a guy named Shredder who likes to paint and play miniatures about sadistic space pirates. Geez.

New White Dwarf and additional tidbits - Page 4 Best-25-touche-meme-2
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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: New White Dwarf and additional tidbits   New White Dwarf and additional tidbits - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeThu Mar 29 2018, 20:28

Btw, since you asked (how I pictured my army in this edition) :

2 Kabals of the Flayed Skull (2 raiders full of Kab-goodness each) + 1 Cult of Strife (Hellions and wyches).

Deep strike 4 kabal raiders onto the enemy's face turn 1. Deepstrike behind them, to force them to move towards me if they want to create distance. Act as a MASSIVE disruption force. Some Kabs will die for sure, but their damage will be quite huge.

Wyches then function as back-up pressure. If they are left alone (because target priority is on the Rapid-fire Kabals), then the Hellions will try to pull-off a splendid charge, deal a ginormous amount of attacks (4 per models), then spend 3 CP to reengage, and spread murder.

Basically a hammer (Cult) and Anvil (DSing kabal), but it's a variant : it's called the Hammer and Hammer.

Of course, the whole thing peppered with planes, ravagers (though a bit less than previously) and scourges. Because duh, we're Dark Eldar.

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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: New White Dwarf and additional tidbits   New White Dwarf and additional tidbits - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeThu Mar 29 2018, 20:34

@Mppqlmd wrote:
Btw, since you asked (how I pictured my army in this edition) :

2 Kabals of the Flayed Skull (2 raiders full of Kab-goodness each) + 1 Cult of Strife (Hellions and wyches).

Deep strike 4 kabal raiders onto the enemy's face turn 1. Deepstrike behind them, to force them to move towards me if they want to create distance. Act as a MASSIVE disruption force. Some Kabs will die for sure, but their damage will be quite huge.

Wyches then function as back-up pressure. If they are left alone (because target priority is on the Rapid-fire Kabals), then the Hellions will try to pull-off a splendid charge, deal a ginormous amount of attacks (4 per models), then spend 3 CP to reengage, and spread murder.

Basically a hammer (Cult) and Anvil (DSing kabal), but it's a variant : it's called the Hammer and Hammer.

Of course, the whole thing peppered with planes, ravagers (though a bit less than previously) and scourges. Because duh, we're Dark Eldar.

I think you should patent the 'Hammer and Hammer' tactic. Very Happy

Might some Mandrakes be worth considering to join in the deep striking fun?
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