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 Anyone else feel a bit 'meh" with what's been "leaked" so far?

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Elegant Slaughter
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PostSubject: Anyone else feel a bit 'meh" with what's been "leaked" so far?   Wed Mar 28 2018, 12:51

Hi everyone!

Long time lurker, 1st time poster. Been in the hobby 20+ years, left during the GW "Dark Ages" (RIP fantasy) and back again for 8th ed. Picked up the Dark Eldar cos they have the most beautiful models in the whole of 40k and the coolest background. Anyway that's the intro out of the way, back to what I came to ask: Is anyone else underwhelmed by what we have seen of the new 'dex so far? Sorry to start with a negative post but I am really disappointed with what I have seen so far. The seperation of the 3 sub-faction kind of bothers me. We already had Kabla/Cult/Coven only buffs and rules, that was enough to give each their own flavour imo. I see the dissection of our army like this just an easy way to divvie things up for Ynnarri when they finally get their dex. This feels like Ynnarri 0.5 to me. I have absolutely no interest in Ynnarii or allying with those dirty Craftworld. I play a full Drukhari army filled with kabs in venoms and 2 Haemos in raiders with warcks/ grots but now that will have to change. I don't see the problem with a haemo leading a load of kabalites on a raid. They've made a deal with the Archon to borrow his guns and guys for a big slice of the incoming slave pie! He's chilling in his flesh pit out of harm's way. Seems thematic enough for me.

Anyway I am babbling. So from the rules we have seen I think splinter racks suck! What was so overpowered by re-rolling all hits? and for s cannons too? I am not a power player, I'm a competitive but fluffy player. Splinter racks now make no sense fluff wise. Why are they "exploding" on 6+? Someone tell me I am wrong. I'm looking for something to be positive about! So far I am not feeling it. The whole disruption to how you pick an army seems over the top (particularly in tournies with 3 detachment rule). All drukhari needed was some point reductions and a re-imagining of most of the special weapons. That was it!... OK wyches defo need to be made killier too! I was so hyped for the Codex but now I feel a bit deflated. I feel like the drukhari did not need to be fractured apart in this way. If so, why not bring out Codex Covens, Cults etc.? Anyway, sorry again for such a negative 1st post I am really hoping that I am missing something amazing here and one of you guys can point it out to me. I'm feeling negative right now because picking a list now seems like it will be very restrictive. Anyone else feeling the same? I feel like individual kabals, covens, cults just wasn't needed, instead I would have preferred flavourful stratagems and some rules tweaks to what existed in the index. Am I just being a moany bitch?

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PostSubject: Re: Anyone else feel a bit 'meh" with what's been "leaked" so far?   Wed Mar 28 2018, 13:00

I would not get too upset just yet.
I think this is more of a complete re-working of the dynamics of the army, rather than an update with new stats and toys.
It is a completely different way to play our favorite army. Instead of an Arcon, or Succubus leading an all encompassing force from dogs, to gunboats, to talos, it is more of a bunch of small squads, each with their own benefits and rules, all working toward the same goal.

This will open up all new tactics, list building and styles of play. As a "fluffy" player, you most of all should feel excited by these rules, as it gives you almost unlimited control over how your army is run.

While everyone else in 40K is running armies containing squads, we are running squads to make an army.

I think after you use it for a while, you will prefer this system.

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PostSubject: Re: Anyone else feel a bit 'meh" with what's been "leaked" so far?   Wed Mar 28 2018, 13:12

I really like it. I love to field model diversity, and the new Raiding Party structure is catering for that quite nicely. It leaves you free to put together your army, your way. You can still run normal detachments if they fit your needs better. Until we see the HQs we won't know how much weight they will pull. If they are unchanged then we're going to end up HQ heavy, but even the most pessimistic posters are expecting at least *some* improvements. And 1CP to give a trait to an Archon, succubus and haemie is a buff for all 3 before we've seen any profiles.
Splinter racks will help. If its cheap it's hard to complain about generating extra hits. I've mainly been running venoms for shooting troops, so I'm hoping they get some nice equipment too. Kabals of the Flayed Skull will boost twin cannon venoms well already though. We're in a better position than we were, without doubt. Until seeing the book just try and enjoy the positives. In isolation it's hard to judge what will and won't work currently, we just don't have the information available yet.

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PostSubject: Re: Anyone else feel a bit 'meh" with what's been "leaked" so far?   Wed Mar 28 2018, 13:14

Currently, you can build a Batallion and fill it with the full range of DE units; that still requires 2 HQs. You get no extra benefits besides ObSec.

In ten days time, you can select those same units, divide them over a couple of smaller detachments, 1 HQ per detachment. Nothing new there...except now you get Obsessions, CPs and who knows what else.
Add new relics, WL traits and stratagems and we will have a box of tools to build a strategy with.

Splinter racks are worse than in 7th, true, but they're back. Depending on the points cost, that's a win.
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PostSubject: Re: Anyone else feel a bit 'meh" with what's been "leaked" so far?   Wed Mar 28 2018, 13:14

This is the "The Force Awakens" problem - it got so hyped up in some people's minds that even though it's good, it's going to be seen as terrible to some folks.

The reality is, with two days of previews, we've seen both a direct address of our crunch problems (making Splinter better) and a bone being thrown to the Fluffy/Narrative players with the Raiding Party stuff (which could be interesting on the crunch side as well if TOs do it right).

Splinter is decent now. It's now significantly better against Toughness 3 units with Flayed Skull (just barely weaker than Bolters) and on par with Bolters on everything T4, and better when we hit T5. It's what we wanted!

Now as far as how you run your army, I don't think we have anything to suggest you CAN'T throw your Haemy in the same detachment as Kabal units. You just may lose out on a few units. Is that going to be optimal? Probably not. But asking to be optimal with your dudes' fluff is frankly asking too much, as GW didn't write the codex for you specifically and there are too many fluffs/narratives out there with infinite possibilities.

You still have the flexibility to play your fluff lists the way you want. You also have the capacity, based on what we've seen so far, to run a decently competitive list.

What's not to like?

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PostSubject: Re: Anyone else feel a bit 'meh" with what's been "leaked" so far?   Wed Mar 28 2018, 13:15

Yeah I sure hope I do. I know how silly it is to rant when we have less than 10% of the info but the gw previews have left a bit of a sour taste. It seems like a weird codex for 8th edition in that it's kind of complicated. I would have been happy with only 2 kabals say one that has poison 3+ splinter weapons and another that has +1 save and ld or something like that. Splinter racks just don't seem right! I like that we are going to have access to maybe the most customisable codex at our disposal but the limit on what you can mix and match in each detachment is annoying straight away. Anyway, guess we just gotta wait and see what happens! I will withhold from more bitching for now lol

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PostSubject: Re: Anyone else feel a bit 'meh" with what's been "leaked" so far?   Wed Mar 28 2018, 13:19

Hey there Elegant Slaughter.

There are a few things to address here...and personally I'm not qualified to help with them all but I will happily chat it over with you.

Splinter Racks - Don't seem as good right now and maybe they won't be. The thing to consider here is you are looking at the rules now vs. the rules for 7th I would imagine. Now in 8th with things like buffs, obsessions, traits and strategems it might be wise to keep an open mind. There may very well be rules that stack that could have made the original rule OP for the points. Lets wait and see.

Weapon Profiles - First indication is that this has been looked at...the Blaster has improved to D6 and for me that was already a popular choice. GW will surely have looked closely at the least popular weapons.

Strategems - Wait and see...seems we have just as many as any other codex out there.

Your Army - Why do you have to change it? It sounds like a legit list build to me.
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PostSubject: Re: Anyone else feel a bit 'meh" with what's been "leaked" so far?   Wed Mar 28 2018, 13:22

Frankly, wounding everything on 3s would have been pretty OP for our basic troops, assuming same basic points cost.

Do the math with the new changes - our basic troops' shooting is now on par with everyone else against infantry, which is what we needed.

And come on man, you can't talk about not having options (running Haemy and Kabals in same detachment) and then two posts later talk about how it's a bad thing we have too many options.

Rerolling all hits on Splinter Racks would have put us over the top into OP land, where we'd have been swiftly nerfed.

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PostSubject: Re: Anyone else feel a bit 'meh" with what's been "leaked" so far?   Wed Mar 28 2018, 13:26

Never asked for GW to make my fluffy list viable just for my sake. I was just hoping for a simpler codex, in line with what already exists. True, I am comparing old splinter racks to new and shouldn't do that but they just seemed so simple already! I was happy with Power from Patience being our chapter tactic to be honest. I do realise I am actually moaning about GW adding some character and flavour to the drukhari and i should be put in a slave pit for that! But honestly, some of the suggestions I have read on here from other posters such as re-working the poison mechanic, wyches with -1 ap as standard, improved special weapons got me more excited than the actual official codex has! So far anyway. Not butt kissing anyone but I believe if the ideas posted here were used instead of this whole sub-faction emphasis I would be feeling a whole lot more excited right now to be honest.

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PostSubject: Re: Anyone else feel a bit 'meh" with what's been "leaked" so far?   Wed Mar 28 2018, 13:33

Seems to me that the split factions will be the most divisive subject for the new codex.

Your list doesn't seem like it will have any issues mind. In fact with the expected points drop it will pay for a free Archon for you and then you get to pick a Kabal detachment with an Obsession. I think that is pretty cool...also whats to sat that some new wargear makes an Archon pretty decent and worth taking Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Anyone else feel a bit 'meh" with what's been "leaked" so far?   Wed Mar 28 2018, 13:35

First of welcome, sorry to hear you are slgihtly dissapointed.

I partly agree with you, the splitting of the dark eldar in effectively 3 different armies has some large downsides. On the other hand I do think it is more fluffy that each faction will want to keep some of his own, so while from a powerlist perspective it has a huge downside, for fluff I think it works better.
But it is hard to judge without having seen the stats and point costs of our HQ (the only thing mandatory in practically all detachments).
On the other hand our passions seem to be quite strong compared to most others, which will partly help with the drawback of needing multiple small detachments to field our army.
It actually feels less ynnari to me, since we have to split our army in multiple detachments we will have less options to fill detachments with non dark eldar.

I heartily disagree splinter racks suck, besides having an average of 25% more hits (normally 4 hits for 6 shots now 5) if we can combine it with other things we have seen (stratagem to get +1 to hit vs units with fly) we will increase the number of hits even more. But if it is good or not depends purely on the pricing, if it costs only a few points it will be an auto include, if it costs 30 points no one will take them.
I think the idea behind the 6+ to hit is that you just shoot a few more shards each time since you can refill, thus those who shoot well/are lucky will be able to hit a second guy in the same burst of shards because it is a slightly bigger burst than without splinter racks.

And like most of the true kin you are a moany bitch, mainly since Vect is displeased because you are annoyed we got more flavour. Wink

Wait till everything is here, yes some of the great ideas that were oppered on this forum will not come to pass (I doubt we get ap-1 wyches). Once the codex drop, have a good look at it, make some army lists and play some games. from what I see so far it will not be perfect, we will be annoyed in some cases, but there are enough good things in there that we can make workable armies and the biggest gripe for most players, the complete lack of fluff and options in the index seems to be at least partially adressed. If they now made most options like reavers and wyches the right point cost we can be happy I think.
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PostSubject: Re: Anyone else feel a bit 'meh" with what's been "leaked" so far?   Wed Mar 28 2018, 13:41

IF IF IF there was a strategem for 1CP that gave +1 to hit with Splinter then all of a sudden Splinter Racks work on a 5+ am I right? That would be a sweet way of helping to clear massed infantry.

But you see what I mean, lets see what the full codex offers us in ways of sneaky DE strategems.
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PostSubject: Re: Anyone else feel a bit 'meh" with what's been "leaked" so far?   Wed Mar 28 2018, 14:35

Never meant to come across as moaninag about flavour or variety. It's the enforced seperation I don't like. You all make some excellent points and I'm happier than I was but the splinter racks gripe I have wasn't about how powerful it is but how it feels. Ye olde tiwn linked rule seemed more like the guys unloading their guns than the 6+ exploding thing. That's just personal thematic preference. Don't get me wrong the Obsessions seem great, I can think of ways to use all of them we've seen so far. Howevwer as 8th ed is supposed to be the 40k for Dummies edition, our convuluted codex seems a bit out of place so far. GW seem Obsessed with giving everyone chapter tactics when sometimes it doesn't even feel necessary. To me anyway. Seems like I am moaning about customization which is crazy, it's what all of us want but seems a bit forced atm. Anyway I'll wait to see the rest of the previews this week before I carry on bitching! Happy hunting y'all

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PostSubject: Re: Anyone else feel a bit 'meh" with what's been "leaked" so far?   Wed Mar 28 2018, 15:43

Well just seen the latest preview and it states "we'd recommend keeping some allied Hemlock Wraithfighters nearby"... erm how about no? Call me old skool but the idea of the United Nations of Eldar just didn't fit right for me. the True kin and the Craftworld pansies hate each other, why are gw obsessed with reuniting them? I said I wouldn't bitch again. I lied. Ynnari 0.5 is up for pre-order this weekend (sigh)

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PostSubject: Re: Anyone else feel a bit 'meh" with what's been "leaked" so far?   Wed Mar 28 2018, 15:56

It was just a suggestion man, no one is forcing you to take allied eldar. No one is forcing you to split up your army into a whole bunch of patrols to use the raiding system. The codex isn't even forcing you to not use covens/kabals in the same detachment, you just won't get the sweet traits if you do so. And it's so easy to make a work around for that issue anyway. With your current list, just take say a battalion kabal and a spearhead/vanguard of coven units and bam you've got access to using obsessions for both detachments plus all their other fun stuff. Really don't see how you can be complaining about us getting more diversity and options when it's so easy to work around the 3 subfactions thing.

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PostSubject: Re: Anyone else feel a bit 'meh" with what's been "leaked" so far?   Wed Mar 28 2018, 16:09

And you can have multiple warlords, and GAIN cps while doing so if you go coven.

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PostSubject: Re: Anyone else feel a bit 'meh" with what's been "leaked" so far?   Wed Mar 28 2018, 16:40

OK guys I guess I'm still being a bitch but just feel disappointed. NOT in a gaming way, this stuff sure is powerful but just doesn't feel right to me but I am obvs on my own with that. I play fluffy but also competitive so missing out on the Obsessions isn't really a viable option. I can see already that the True Kin will have power that we didn't have before I'm just salty none of my wishlisting has come to fruition. I mean wracks with a 4++ is great but does it seem realistic? Not at all. They are now Cataphractii termies with +1T and -1 wound. I know, I'm whining about stuff being strong now but it just doesn't feel right. Anyway, I am glad everyone else seems happy with the changes it will be nice to test my mettle against some other Archons on the tabletop again.

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PostSubject: Re: Anyone else feel a bit 'meh" with what's been "leaked" so far?   Wed Mar 28 2018, 16:49

I was not expecting love or hate, just attention for Drukhari (troops and players). I sincerely nelieve attention has been given to both the Drukhari army and those playing it.

Maybe it's that I haven't played in quite along time and lurking is just not enough to get a feel or compare this edition's Drukhari to last's ones but this codex feels good with its treatment of poisoned weaponry, its boon to blasters, and its stratagems and obssessions.

Myself, I have both Kabalites, Cult and Coven people in my Drukhari army, all being necessary parts of a whole both from a playing and background perspective. So for me, it looks like it's been done with a fluff insight with its tacit incentivation of mixed forces.

Just my 2 cents...

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PostSubject: Re: Anyone else feel a bit 'meh" with what's been "leaked" so far?   Wed Mar 28 2018, 16:50

You wanted +3 poisoned splinter weapons across the board and now you think our overpriced wracks are too powerful? Just can't understand your mindset man. t5 +4 invul is good, but it's hardly overpowered or terminator level of tough to kill. Wracks would still go down to massed bolter fire much quicker than terminators.

Let me just say this: yeah we're all crying in joy/rage right now over what we've seen so far, but we've only seen just a few things about our codex. Keep an open mind, maybe you'll see some of the changes you want to see once you have the codex in hand.

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PostSubject: Re: Anyone else feel a bit 'meh" with what's been "leaked" so far?   Wed Mar 28 2018, 16:53

@Lord Asvaldir wrote:

Let me just say this: yeah we're all crying in joy/rage right now over what we've seen so far, but we've only seen just a few things about our codex. Keep an open mind, maybe you'll see some of the changes you want to see once you have the codex in hand.

Amen

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PostSubject: Re: Anyone else feel a bit 'meh" with what's been "leaked" so far?   Wed Mar 28 2018, 17:02

Fair do's guys. Not sure if I got my points across very well, I know it seems like a lot of complaining but just venting some steam on what I have seen so far which to be fair is less than 5% of what's in the book. I just hope I have fun building lists without feeling restricted. Not a power gamer so "complaining" about the 4++ wracks felt justified, fluff wise. They are still skinny elf dudes with sandals on (seriously why are they wearing sandals?) not jacked up marines with forcefields.

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PostSubject: Re: Anyone else feel a bit 'meh" with what's been "leaked" so far?   Wed Mar 28 2018, 17:05

I suppose from a realism element you have a point, but there's a lot of instances like that in 40k, like why does a tiny poisoned splinter round do the same damage to a hive tyrant that it does to a guardsmen? I find it best to try and just ignore such instances.

Good thing is about 8th, I think list building has never been easier because of how varied detachments are. I'm almost certain you'll be able to build the list you want with the new codex without too much hassle because of that.

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PostSubject: Re: Anyone else feel a bit 'meh" with what's been "leaked" so far?   Wed Mar 28 2018, 17:23

Cheers dude, I'm glad you see my point about the realism thing. I know a lot of that has gone in 8th I mean just look at how vehicles work now! You got all the dudes firing from the same cm on the Raider and dark lances can shoot backwards lol but I do really appreciate as much realism as we can get on the tabletop. I think it makes a a game more immersive. These are 8th ed issues though, it's very abstract, not just drukhari codex ones. Well at least it looks like we will be stronger than before even if I do disagree with the way they have gone about it. I am looking forward to playing my brother's Necrons and saying "oh you have the -1ap Mephrit trait, that's cute. Btw my wracks don't care. Here, eat this charge" (holds hands together Mr Burns style) "Excellent."

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PostSubject: Re: Anyone else feel a bit 'meh" with what's been "leaked" so far?   Wed Mar 28 2018, 17:43

I felt that way about 8th when it first came out and missed the more realistic aspects of 7th for awhile, but at the end of the day once you get use to it 8th has just turned out to be a more fun game, at least in my experience, and that counts for more than realism. And hey that's the spirit, at least it will be fun to beat up our ancient foe.

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PostSubject: Re: Anyone else feel a bit 'meh" with what's been "leaked" so far?   Wed Mar 28 2018, 17:50

I actually think that 4++ on Coven can be excused/accepted with a little imagination.

First of all we are mainly talking Wracks/Grots/Pain Engine

No opposing player should be firing high strength weapons at Wracks. They should be firing multiple low strength weapons. Could a Wrack get by with an arm or 3 blown away by small arms fire? YES! If the opposing player wants to fire lascannons at them then shame on him Wink

If you want realistic then consider the sort of weapon that Wracks are more likely to face.

Now lets talk about the Haemy. They are potentially some of oldest living beings around, they have used all this time to perfect their craft which is pretty much the control over life and death. Their skills should be considered similar to psker skills which are pretty out there if you like realistic scenarios.

It is perfectly acceptable to think that a Haemy is so good at his craft that he can keep alive a weak body, beyond what we might normally expect a field medic to do.
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