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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Oversaturation?   Mon Apr 02 2018, 22:07

IDK, Archons now with Venoms get re-roll 1's and black heart can re-roll 1's of wounds. Or Raiders with Splinter racks and 10 kabal as Poison Tongue (getting re-roll wounds) could really do some damage i would think.

Tho without AP its still full saves

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Bad-baden-baden
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PostSubject: Re: Oversaturation?   Mon Apr 02 2018, 22:25

For the first time (ever?) I think shredders will make a decent addition to many lists!
I've been trying out 2 in a kaballite bomb with obsidian rose and they haven't given me any reason to regret taking them. In fact, I played a game just yesterday against my friend, who is a fantastic Tyranid Kraken player, and somehow I completely stomped. The extra ~250 points of units I could fit in my list made a huge difference as did blasters being D6 damage, allowing me to free up a lot of points that would have gone to ravagers/dark lances etc etc.
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Dalakh
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PostSubject: Re: Oversaturation?   Mon Apr 02 2018, 22:26

@Mppqlmd wrote:
Let's not forget a Coven Ravager can act as a sniper and SPLITFIRE its 2 guns to kill 2 (small) HQs per turn Wink

Are Coven Ravagers even a thing ?
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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: Oversaturation?   Mon Apr 02 2018, 22:28

20 wyches will deal 81 S4 attacks, without any equipment.

Without any equipment or Succubus nearby :

- 67.5 hits

- 45 wounds

- 30 dead guardsmen.

Then you can spend some CP, and reengage another group, to deal the same damage.

So for less than 200pts, you got a squad that can kill 2 stacks of 30 GEQ in a single combat phase.

Quote :

Are Coven Ravagers even a thing ?
I meant Tantalus, ofc Wink

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Sarkesian
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PostSubject: Re: Oversaturation?   Mon Apr 02 2018, 22:39

For the first time I feel like I can field any unit from our codex and have it be competitive. Wyches are going to be so much fun! They are blood brides that got a 4 or 5 point reduction and -1 LD. I'm dying to try everything out!
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Mononcule
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PostSubject: Re: Oversaturation?   Mon Apr 02 2018, 22:43

@Sarkesian wrote:
For the first time I feel like I can field any unit from our codex and have it be competitive. Wyches are going to be so much fun! They are blood brides that got a 4 or 5 point reduction and -1 LD. I'm dying to try everything out!

That comment pretty much summarize how I feel about the new codex Smile

Just did my first list and I want to try almost everything in it.
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Bad-baden-baden
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PostSubject: Re: Oversaturation?   Mon Apr 02 2018, 22:47

Wyches with shardnets are actually amazing. You can tarpit until kingdom come!
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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: Oversaturation?   Mon Apr 02 2018, 23:16

@Bad-baden-baden wrote:
Wyches with shardnets are actually amazing. You can tarpit until kingdom come!

Do you need to though ? You can kit them to destroy anything that has less than 10 T.

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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: Re: Oversaturation?   Mon Apr 02 2018, 23:18

The new shredders fill this niche nicely now, and Haywire Blasters dun got good.

I still think the heat lance is going to see little love because, frankly, it's too niche and blasters are better for general work.
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Sarkesian
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PostSubject: Re: Oversaturation?   Mon Apr 02 2018, 23:20

I'm going to find a way to use Heat Lances effectively. Probably on a Talos. Getting into melta range feels safer when attacking so I get both of those rolls vs just 1 roll, which always ends up being a 1 for me when I use blasters.
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Bad-baden-baden
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PostSubject: Re: Oversaturation?   Mon Apr 02 2018, 23:32

@Mppqlmd wrote:
@Bad-baden-baden wrote:
Wyches with shardnets are actually amazing. You can tarpit until kingdom come!

Do you need to though ? You can kit them to destroy anything that has less than 10 T.

Shardnet is super useful. The best thing you can possibly do with wyches is to kill 99% of an enemy infantry squad and leave one enemy troop or whatever infantry alive. If they try to fall back, they only get a D3. If you keep them in combat, you've protected your wyches from shooting. Alternatively, it can help draw a lot of your enemies resources into them. For example, yesterday those 10 wyches + succubus held up/murdered 16 genestealers, lured 30 hormagaunts, a broodlord and 10 further genestealers over, and survived so long I eventually just said I was going to take my armor save instead of my invuln save, so that I would be able to shoot at his units again!
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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Oversaturation?   Tue Apr 03 2018, 00:17

against Genestealer?? Wow
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wormfromhell
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PostSubject: Re: Oversaturation?   Tue Apr 03 2018, 04:42

@Bad-baden-baden wrote:
@Mppqlmd wrote:
@Bad-baden-baden wrote:
Wyches with shardnets are actually amazing. You can tarpit until kingdom come!

Do you need to though ? You can kit them to destroy anything that has less than 10 T.

Shardnet is super useful. The best thing you can possibly do with wyches is to kill 99% of an enemy infantry squad and leave one enemy troop or whatever infantry alive. If they try to fall back, they only get a D3. If you keep them in combat, you've protected your wyches from shooting. Alternatively, it can help draw a lot of your enemies resources into them. For example, yesterday those 10 wyches + succubus held up/murdered  16 genestealers, lured 30 hormagaunts, a broodlord and 10 further genestealers over, and survived so long I eventually just said I was going to take my armor save instead of my invuln save, so that I would be able to shoot at his units again!

thats insane! how did they survive?

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Alezya
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PostSubject: Re: Oversaturation?   Tue Apr 03 2018, 04:50

@Mppqlmd wrote:
20 wyches will deal 81 S4 attacks, without any equipment.

Without any equipment or Succubus nearby :

- 67.5 hits

- 45 wounds

- 30 dead guardsmen.

Then you can spend some CP, and reengage another group, to deal the same damage.

So for less than 200pts, you got a squad that can kill 2 stacks of 30 GEQ in a single combat phase.

I quite doubt that 20 wyches will be able to charge 2 units of GIs without any casualties.

Calculating chances of doing dmg is great, but a dead wych deals no dmg lol.
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Lord Asvaldir
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PostSubject: Re: Oversaturation?   Tue Apr 03 2018, 05:13

All it takes is a good wwp placement and a somewhat above average charge roll, definetly not guaranteed but definetly possible. That being said I think I'd rather run wyches in raiders, probably more reliable way of them making contact with someone like guardsmen as long as there are plenty of threats besides the wyches.

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Oversaturation?   Tue Apr 03 2018, 08:14

@Alezya wrote:
@Mppqlmd wrote:
20 wyches will deal 81 S4 attacks, without any equipment.

Without any equipment or Succubus nearby :

- 67.5 hits

- 45 wounds

- 30 dead guardsmen.

Then you can spend some CP, and reengage another group, to deal the same damage.

So for less than 200pts, you got a squad that can kill 2 stacks of 30 GEQ in a single combat phase.

I quite doubt that 20 wyches will be able to charge 2 units of GIs without any casualties.

Calculating chances of doing dmg is great, but a dead wych deals no dmg lol.

Thats what Venoms charging is for, or Reavers charging from out of LoS.

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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: Oversaturation?   Tue Apr 03 2018, 09:53

Quote :
I quite doubt that 20 wyches will be able to charge 2 units of GIs without any casualties.

Calculating chances of doing dmg is great, but a dead wych deals no dmg lol.

First charge, they charge with their Raider, and the raider eats overwatch (don't you always do it ? Because that's how i play).

Second charge is not a charge, they engage by a consolidate+pile in combination from the Stratagem, so no overwatch.

In both case you attack before your opponent, and you wipe his entire squad.

How are they supposed to suffer casualties ?

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Oversaturation?   Tue Apr 03 2018, 10:01

You can to declare charge against the other unit in order to even attack them the turn you charge tho.

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PostSubject: Re: Oversaturation?   Tue Apr 03 2018, 10:02

@amishprn86 wrote:
You can to declare charge against the other unit in order to even attack them the turn you charge tho.

Hmm, that's correct. Didn't consider that.

Still, the raider will have to eat those overwatches.

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Imateria
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PostSubject: Re: Oversaturation?   Tue Apr 03 2018, 13:46

Isn't there a Warlord Trait for the Succubus where you can't fire Overwatch against her? Send her in first.
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PostSubject: Re: Oversaturation?   Tue Apr 03 2018, 13:50

@Imateria wrote:
Isn't there a Warlord Trait for the Succubus where you can't fire Overwatch against her? Send her in first.

Optimal situation. But only if you can. My Succubus will be probably faaar behind, working her cardio.

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Alezya
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PostSubject: Re: Oversaturation?   Tue Apr 03 2018, 14:17

@Mppqlmd wrote:


First charge, they charge with their Raider, and the raider eats overwatch (don't you always do it ? Because that's how i play).

In an edition where we could charge from the Raider, yes.
In 8th Ed, didn't have the chance to play CC DE yet. Only shooty.

@Imateria wrote:
Isn't there a Warlord Trait for the Succubus where you can't fire Overwatch against her? Send her in first.

I believe it is an artefact for Prophets coven...
That would definitely be a Jain-Zarr like solution.

But:
20 Wyches, they will have to come by DS (9" and more). While not forgetting to bring in a Raider from elsewhere and being able to: 1/ Soak the damage of the first unit's overwatch. 2/ Soak the damage of the second unit's overwatch.
And then only 20 Wyches charge unit 1 and unit 2 (or maybe 3) at 9".

Don't know, honestly. I am not a very big fan of DSing Wyches. I think they will start the game in the Raider.
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PostSubject: Re: Oversaturation?   Tue Apr 03 2018, 16:01

@wormfromhell wrote:
@Bad-baden-baden wrote:
@Mppqlmd wrote:
@Bad-baden-baden wrote:
Wyches with shardnets are actually amazing. You can tarpit until kingdom come!

Do you need to though ? You can kit them to destroy anything that has less than 10 T.

Shardnet is super useful. The best thing you can possibly do with wyches is to kill 99% of an enemy infantry squad and leave one enemy troop or whatever infantry alive. If they try to fall back, they only get a D3. If you keep them in combat, you've protected your wyches from shooting. Alternatively, it can help draw a lot of your enemies resources into them. For example, yesterday those 10 wyches + succubus held up/murdered  16 genestealers, lured 30 hormagaunts, a broodlord and 10 further genestealers over, and survived so long I eventually just said I was going to take my armor save instead of my invuln save, so that I would be able to shoot at his units again!

thats insane! how did they survive?

Cult of Red Grief has the 3++ warlord trait. He tried to focus on the succubus with his brood lord and his hormagaunts. A 3++ is damn tough to get through, especially since I was rolling pretty hot with those saves, and when he got damage through, he rolled terribly for the amount he did. The genestealers were too beat up to really do much damage back to me, and because of how we were positioned and from his attempt to null my deepstrike, he wasn't able to get all the troops listed actually into a fighting position.

Even still, the absolute carnage that these 10 wyches unleashed justified them. Wyches are actually at a point where I can comfortably say that they're legitimately frightening combatants!
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Bad-baden-baden
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PostSubject: Re: Oversaturation?   Tue Apr 03 2018, 16:03

Raider is probably the optimal idea. Assuming that vehicles gain obsessions, you can advance and charge with your raider if you take Red grief. combine that with the flat out 8" stratagem, you're looking pretty good for soaking that overwatch.
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PostSubject: Re: Oversaturation?   Tue Apr 03 2018, 16:16

Quote :
In an edition where we could charge from the Raider, yes.
In 8th Ed, didn't have the chance to play CC DE yet. Only shooty.

They don't charge "from" the raider. They charge "with" the raider. That's the first edition in which you can do that, and it solves every overwatch problem.

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