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Gasfish
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PostSubject: Screaming jets?   Wed Mar 28 2018, 01:49

So what about 5 man scourges packed in with 4 Dark lances each? on a Tantalus?

Or trueborns packed with four blasters each?
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PostSubject: Re: Screaming jets?   Wed Mar 28 2018, 01:59

Scourges would be a huge waste since they can already deep strike. Trueborn with blasters though would be solid, but deep striking a vehicle that big might difficult.

There's also a whole topic on screaming jets that already got started over in the tactics section.

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PostSubject: Re: Screaming jets?   Wed Mar 28 2018, 02:17

Ok cool! i will check out that thread.

Thanks
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PostSubject: Re: Screaming jets?   Wed Mar 28 2018, 09:48

Deep Striking Tantalus might be the only way for this bullet magnet vehicle to survive your opponent's 1st turn. It's an easy target for Dark Reapers for example.
So if use my Tantalus I will never be skipping this stratagem.

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PostSubject: Re: Screaming jets?   Wed Mar 28 2018, 12:52

@SERAFF wrote:
Deep Striking Tantalus might be the only way for this bullet magnet vehicle to survive your opponent's 1st turn. It's an easy target for Dark Reapers for example.
So if use my Tantalus I will never be skipping this stratagem.

Sadly, eldar have a strategem that allows their dark Reapers to shoot at your tantalus the second it deep strikes.

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PostSubject: Re: Screaming jets?   Wed Mar 28 2018, 12:56

@Skulnbonz wrote:
@SERAFF wrote:
Deep Striking Tantalus might be the only way for this bullet magnet vehicle to survive your opponent's 1st turn. It's an easy target for Dark Reapers for example.
So if use my Tantalus I will never be skipping this stratagem.

Sadly, eldar have a strategem that allows their dark Reapers to shoot at your tantalus the second it deep strikes.

Yeah, and not just Dark Reapers! Try deep striking when a Scorpion can shoot at you (4d6 S12 AP-4 D3 shots)!

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PostSubject: Re: Screaming jets?   Thu Mar 29 2018, 01:35

Just looking for some alternative uses for Screaming Jets...

Deploy 3 or 4 empty Raiders in a line in front of a melee army, especially one with fast units like bikes to keep them stuck away from your front lines longer, and potentially block some key line of sight as well.

Instead of deploying Ravagers on the board, use Screaming Jets to place them well back in your side of the board after the enemy anti tank has had to shoot at Kabalites or Wracks for a turn instead. As an aside, I don't understand Craftworld players using a Wave Serpent for their Reapers first turn when they could webway them in instead.

Maybe Talos / Cronos get VEHICLE and a triple Talos unit can drop down using Screaming Jets, then character snipe with Heat Lances or something crazy.

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PostSubject: Re: Screaming jets?   Thu Mar 29 2018, 01:47

Talos/cronos just ain't a vehicle, that's not gonna change.

3-4 empty raiders, our transports are already expensive so where would you get the pts for that? Much better I think to drop in raiders with kabalites in them, packed with blasters to light something up.

Keeping ravagers off the board is something I could see doing if you don't have anywhere good to hide them and your opponent has a lot of anti tank. Probably not something I'd do in my average list considering I have a lot of vehicle target saturation, but who knows these are early days for planning codex lists, keeping a ravager off the board might be smart sometimes.

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PostSubject: Re: Screaming jets?   Thu Mar 29 2018, 02:27

Venoms with Trueborn ( Taken with the obsidian rose Kabal ) 4 blasters and one blast pistol ( extended in range due to kabal trait ) would be effective right?

In all my games facing armies such as guard and tau the minus one to hit makes quite a difference, plus i run 3 reapers as well as venoms, and with the extended range the reapers are now alot ore viable due to thier heavy weapon profile.

One thing to add to this, is anyone worried about Truebron being removed from the codex? I mean D6 damage blasters at 24 inches is close to making Dark lances no longer viable? paying nearly double the price for an extra 12 inches or 18 with the trait doesnt seem very cost effective, plus treuborn squads like the one mentioned above currently are only 125 pts, close to a ravager and a reaper so......about 6 squads of trueborn in venoms would be brutal! Or am i missing something? which is offen the case.

P.S Apologies if the Trueborn question has already been mentioned somewhere else. The dark city is vast and very dark.

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PostSubject: Re: Screaming jets?   Thu Mar 29 2018, 02:37

Pistols don't get the extended range, just all the other weapons types do so I'd skip out on the pistol. I used lots of trueborn in venoms previously, 24" range and d6 damage blasters just makes them even more enticing and awesome to use. Trueborn definetly could get nixed though, I don't want to make any predictions on that yet since we just don't know but it's possible. If it does happen I'd likely just fall back on using scourges with blasters and kabalites, which shouldn't be bad at all. Scourges just don't get the extra range blasters, which they probably don't need considering their movement and deep strike ability.

I definetly don't think dark lances are going to disappear from DE lists. Especially for people who won't be playing obsidian rose, the extra range still matters, and unless the ravager massively goes up in pts randomly it's still a very solid gunboat that I'm sure many of us will keep using. I do see that change to blasters meaning that people will take dark lances on infantry units less, definetly don't see the point of dark lance scourges anymore.

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PostSubject: Re: Screaming jets?   Thu Mar 29 2018, 02:55

Yep the pistol doesnt count you right, i always miss something.

I would be heartbroken if trueborn were removed, not because i dont have other units to utilise but becuase i spent about 100 pounds and many hours converting and aquiring 13 blasters for my three squads.Trueborn are kind of iconic, ive seen so many hobbyists do a great job on custom trueborn squads. Its a bit of a slap in the face, that now i have to go on a blaster binge again to euip my scourges with them. And before anyone says it...i know i can scratch build them but they just dont look the same pale

Everything you have said im leaning to, it all makes good sense.

I still see venoms with trueborn having greater survivability than ravagers and reapers, i mean night shield doesnt work in combat, i hope that changes or they bring back flicker fields, if i dont win the roll off to play guard i have no reapers by my first turn, unless i bring the tantalus, then i have two damaged reapers hitting on 5's and no tantalus! And i agree with above comments, DS tantalus for survival only, way to big to get in anywhere crucial i would expect

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PostSubject: Re: Screaming jets?   Thu Mar 29 2018, 06:34

Man that would sound like a real pain for you if trueborn get nixed considering all the work you've put into them. I was much lazier with mine, I just started painting mine differently so I won't be too screwed over, but I probably won't have as much a use for 10 blasters anymore, so I might have to rip a couple arms off.

I'm not sure of venom with trueborn being more survivable than a ravager. Venom needs to get closer, so is more vulnerable to being tied up in cc (not a problem for the venom, but is for the passengers), while the ravager can hide backfield. Sure the -1 to hit is solid and the venom has the added buff that you need to kill the transport then get at the passengers with blasters, but I wouldn't just discount the ravager to easily given its range.

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PostSubject: Re: Screaming jets?   Thu Mar 29 2018, 13:37

Thats a good point, i play Tau alot, and some GK i only get to use a ravager or reaper from my back line for a turn before Fusion crisis or Paladins drop in behind them. Venoms are just that little bit faster, and im bias as i love the models!

Its great to get different takes on how to work with Truekin, i will be thinking about your comments here when list building!

Yeah my trueborn have taken literally months to accumilate and paint, my local GW manager doesnt think they will be axed, but maybe a suqad limitation or something but we will see, this is GW and they hate truekin, just look at 3rd edition hahah!

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PostSubject: Re: Screaming jets?   Fri Mar 30 2018, 09:04

Even if Trueborn are removed from the Codex, *you can still use them* as the Index version. Completely legal by GW.


So yes boys, start packing up on Venoms.
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PostSubject: Re: Screaming jets?   Fri Mar 30 2018, 10:21

Would that mean we use index blasters as well? So only d3?

If kabalites can take 2 blasters they'll do the same damage with 2 special as the trueborn a 4 d3, lower average sure, but still.no different.
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PostSubject: Re: Screaming jets?   Fri Mar 30 2018, 11:28

@Britishgrotesque wrote:
Would that mean we use index blasters as well? So only d3?

If kabalites can take 2 blasters they'll do the same damage with 2 special as the trueborn a 4 d3, lower average sure, but still.no different.

no everything that is in the codex gets priority,
so price of 18 points? and d6 wound blasters will be used with the index trueborn
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PostSubject: Re: Screaming jets?   Fri Mar 30 2018, 13:38

@Britishgrotesque wrote:
Would that mean we use index blasters as well? So only d3?

If kabalites can take 2 blasters they'll do the same damage with 2 special as the trueborn a 4 d3, lower average sure, but still.no different.

If you take 10 warrior squads in raiders. But not if you use venoms, back to one blaster, which in this edition is just not enough, even if it is D6, its on a T3 model. Look at the ridiculous rules of Imperial factions and their shennanigans, having 4 d6 18 inch weps on T3 models isnt that bad, it gives us an edge and a way of dfealing with backline hammerheads /Russ/ Razorback / vindicators ect with Screaming jets.

From what i understand you cannot pick and choose which index models and options you use, if you run Index trueborn they will have to take D3 blasters, as the profile on the index datasheet says so.

And im pretty sure in tournaments they have restrictions on souping index with codex.

In short, GW dont take away Trueborn, mainly becuase they are such an important part of the lore, just read Path of the Dark Eldar. And would this blaster bomb be any worse than Ynnari reapers? i think not.

What do you guys think?

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PostSubject: Re: Screaming jets?   Fri Mar 30 2018, 18:49

Quote :
From what i understand you cannot pick and choose which index models and options you use, if you run Index trueborn they will have to take D3 blasters, as the profile on the index datasheet says so.


Nope, it'd be the Codex version of Blasters. Only items not found in the Codex can be used from the Index, otherwise all items (wargear included) gets replaced with the updated rules/pricing. I know this from running Skyrunner Autarchs w/Tempest Launcher (the Index loadout, which doesn't exist in the Codex). I had to research a lot about these rulings. I don't have the link but I believe it's in the Designer Commentary (just look for the FAQ on the first run of Codexes, that's when it came up)


So yes, rejoice, EVEN if (and it's a big IF) the Trueborn get removed - you can still use them this edition with Dd6 Blasters <3
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PostSubject: Re: Screaming jets?   Fri Mar 30 2018, 19:01

@FattimusMcGee wrote:
Quote :
From what i understand you cannot pick and choose which index models and options you use, if you run Index trueborn they will have to take D3 blasters, as the profile on the index datasheet says so.


Nope, it'd be the Codex version of Blasters. Only items not found in the Codex can be used from the Index, otherwise all items (wargear included) gets replaced with the updated rules/pricing. I know this from running Skyrunner Autarchs w/Tempest Launcher (the Index loadout, which doesn't exist in the Codex). I had to research a lot about these rulings. I don't have the link but I  believe it's in the Designer Commentary (just look for the FAQ on the first run of Codexes, that's when it came up)


So yes, rejoice, EVEN if (and it's a big IF) the Trueborn get removed - you can still use them this edition with Dd6 Blasters <3

Can you? From what I gathered about this "use the index version" is that it only works for models (as in, the physical representation), not units. Trueborn never had a model and the Kabalite Warriors already have an existing representation as... Kabalite Warriors.

But I would be glad if I could be convined of the opposite.

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PostSubject: Re: Screaming jets?   Fri Mar 30 2018, 20:00

@The Strange Dark One wrote:
@FattimusMcGee wrote:
Quote :
From what i understand you cannot pick and choose which index models and options you use, if you run Index trueborn they will have to take D3 blasters, as the profile on the index datasheet says so.


Nope, it'd be the Codex version of Blasters. Only items not found in the Codex can be used from the Index, otherwise all items (wargear included) gets replaced with the updated rules/pricing. I know this from running Skyrunner Autarchs w/Tempest Launcher (the Index loadout, which doesn't exist in the Codex). I had to research a lot about these rulings. I don't have the link but I  believe it's in the Designer Commentary (just look for the FAQ on the first run of Codexes, that's when it came up)


So yes, rejoice, EVEN if (and it's a big IF) the Trueborn get removed - you can still use them this edition with Dd6 Blasters <3

Can you? From what I gathered about this "use the index version" is that it only works for models (as in, the physical representation), not units. Trueborn never had a model and the Kabalite Warriors already have an existing representation as... Kabalite Warriors.

But I would be glad if I could be convined of the opposite.

Yeah the flowchart as people are saying basically has you check codex each time. If there is a codex datasheet, use the codex entry. If the index has wargear options that the codex doesn't, you can use those wargear options. If those wargear options have rules in the codex, you use the codex for rules and points. That's why Eldar Autarchs can take Banshee masks, for free, and use the codex "negate overwatch" rule. Or you get odd things like the Standard Autarch with his glaive thing also armed with 2 avenger shuriken catapults (because the index autarch says you take things, not replace)
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PostSubject: Re: Screaming jets?   Fri Mar 30 2018, 21:58

Its seems there is a concensus on mixing index and codex, so wonderful, all my time and money spent making my Trueborn wysiwyg wont be in Vain ( unlike my 1850 Corsair fleet ).

But i still have to ask, if this is the case, why on earth doesnt the codex just include everything? Lazyness or just a cheeky way to make the index still viable and keep people calm about the fact that they were an expensive stopgap which should have been a free pdf download??

What are your thoughts all?

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PostSubject: Re: Screaming jets?   Fri Mar 30 2018, 22:02

I think GW is moving away from a lot of models in the index and has no intention of providing future support for them. The index appears to be a way for people with the old models to continue to use them. I don't believe GW intends for new players to use the Index models/equipment. And in 2-3 years I doubt anyone wiol be able to buy an index anymore.
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PostSubject: Re: Screaming jets?   Fri Mar 30 2018, 22:05

Quote :
But i still have to ask, if this is the case, why on earth doesnt the codex just include everything? Lazyness or just a cheeky way to make the index still viable and keep people calm about the fact that they were an expensive stopgap which should have been a free pdf download??

They want to discourage the use of units that don't currently have models, but don't want to risk losing face with players who actually use those models. Once all the codecies are out, the Index's will stop being sold, and in a few years too few of the players will still have those books, meaning the problem banishes itself into non-existence.

Clever, but a little cruel

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PostSubject: Re: Screaming jets?   Fri Mar 30 2018, 22:09

@TheBaconPope wrote:
Quote :
But i still have to ask, if this is the case, why on earth doesnt the codex just include everything? Lazyness or just a cheeky way to make the index still viable and keep people calm about the fact that they were an expensive stopgap which should have been a free pdf download??

They want to discourage the use of units that don't currently have models, but don't want to risk losing face with players who actually use those models. Once all the codecies are out, the Index's will stop being sold, and in a few years too few of the players will still have those books, meaning the problem banishes itself into non-existence.

Clever, but a little cruel

I am still attempting to hold out hope that some day, even if it's a year or two down the road, they might reintroduce removed models/units. Technically Tyranids had that done at the end of 6th. It wasn't identical, but they lost their named zoanthrope and their drop pod thing in their codex and a couple months later they had new models for similar units (in addition to a couple other new kits...)
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PostSubject: Re: Screaming jets?   Sat Mar 31 2018, 13:32

I see, so by extension of that are they trying to discourage converting also?

I realise that there are alot of third party 3d printing companies that offer conversion bits, but thats not converting in my eyes. I started this hobby back in 94 when i was just a whipper snapper and converting wasnt only everywhere but in white dwarf it was ecouraged!!!

I understand that GW have had a management shift and that shift saved them from destruction but i fear that alot of the "hobby" side of warhammer will die out and it will become more about the game and selling kits.

So yes clever and cruel, which sounds like a salesman tactic not one of a genuine GW fan.

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