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HERO
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PostSubject: Re: Codex Drukhari Preview: The Kabals   Wed Mar 28 2018, 04:06

@TeenageAngst wrote:
I'm wondering if they're going to allow you to continue to put anything inside of anything. Raiders with +6" movement with Kabalite Warriors that also have +6" to shoot by mixing Kabals would be actual synergy and the kind of stacking benefits that make an army good.

Well, let's see.  Can you put Alaitoc Rangers inside Uthwe Wave Serpents?

<Craftworld> logic is going to apply to <Kabal> as well methinks.

If not, then I'm going to look at ESE sideways and call that a miss.

Also, +3", not +6".

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PostSubject: Re: Codex Drukhari Preview: The Kabals   Wed Mar 28 2018, 04:08

@Ubernoob1 wrote:
@Bibitybopitybacon wrote:
Funny thought... What if ESE IS the one writing the preview articles???  
*tinfoil hats engaged!*

You know? I'd almost be willing to bet money on that. They had the Frontline Gaming guys write most of the previews for 8e, and we've basically done nothing but rage at them since. So maybe they wanted to try again and have someone who knows the codex, knows the army, and knows us to speak to us?

That'd be amazing. It seems unlikely, but I have to concede that whoever's writing these articles is doing a fine job of it. I'm legitimately excited for the first time since new codices began dropping.

Yesterday, I was deeply concerned that the restrictions imposed by a triple-faction codex would be too onerous to justify building for obsessions, relics and stratagems. I didn't want to resign myself to more years of aeldari soup. But the obsessions being offered are among the best "chapter tactics equivalent" of in any codex out there.

Yesterday, I predicted that I'd be stuck dragging around a bunch of extra HQs just to satisfy my detachment requirements. I certainly didn't predict that it could be worth it.
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PostSubject: Re: Codex Drukhari Preview: The Kabals   Wed Mar 28 2018, 05:19

Sorry, if it is already written, at least i have not found it.

The article seems to have either a mistake or implies that vehicles also have power from pain now.
It is suggested that first turn charges with raiders are a good combo with the obsession for black hearth, but they would only get the charge reroll in first turn, if they already have power from pain.

I personally think it is a mistake in the article.
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PostSubject: Re: Codex Drukhari Preview: The Kabals   Wed Mar 28 2018, 05:23

I think they are implying you are deepstriking >9 inches away.
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PostSubject: Re: Codex Drukhari Preview: The Kabals   Wed Mar 28 2018, 05:24

@Ubernoob1 wrote:
@Bibitybopitybacon wrote:
Funny thought... What if ESE IS the one writing the preview articles???  
*tinfoil hats engaged!*

You know? I'd almost be willing to bet money on that. They had the Frontline Gaming guys write most of the previews for 8e, and we've basically done nothing but rage at them since. So maybe they wanted to try again and have someone who knows the codex, knows the army, and knows us to speak to us?

A buddy tole me one of the ITC guys that is in charge favorite army is Dark Eldar.

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PostSubject: Re: Codex Drukhari Preview: The Kabals   Wed Mar 28 2018, 05:26

Quote :
It is suggested that first turn charges with raiders are a good combo with the obsession for black hearth, but they would only get the charge reroll in first turn, if they already have power from pain.

Deepstrike 9" away, charge (potentially with a reroll charge Strat), disembark the following turn into combat and enjoy hitting on 2+'s at full strength.

A little poorly worded, perhaps, but feasible.

The only thing it's missing is Kabal Melee units!

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PostSubject: Re: Codex Drukhari Preview: The Kabals   Wed Mar 28 2018, 05:53

@HERO wrote:
Well, let's see.  Can you put Alaitoc Rangers inside Uthwe Wave Serpents?

<Craftworld> logic is going to apply to <Kabal> as well methinks.
Potentially, but to avoid awkward wording around the transports they might leave as they are now (i.e. can carry XX Drukhari infantry or Incubi).

Most factions are fairly straightforward in that you say:
"May transport 12 <CRAFTWORLD> infantry" for example
and that matches the selection for <CRAFTWORLD> for the vehicle

For Drukhari you need to select a faction for the transport of either <KABAL> <CULT> <COVEN> and then have wording:
"May transport XX <KABAL> <CULT> <COVEN> or INCUBI infantry"
Plus have an explanation the subfaction selection has to be the same as chosen for the transport. The potential confusion there might give a reason to leave as is. Otherwise someone will decide their transport is OBSIDIAN ROSE / CULT OF STRIFE / THE HEX of mix and match infantry going in there.

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PostSubject: Re: Codex Drukhari Preview: The Kabals   Wed Mar 28 2018, 06:02

@Sarkesian wrote:
I think they are implying you are deepstriking >9 inches away.

And the black heart helps a raider with that in what way?


@TheBaconPope wrote:
Deepstrike 9" away, charge (potentially with a reroll charge Strat), disembark the following turn into combat and enjoy hitting on 2+'s at full strength.

A little poorly worded, perhaps, but feasible.

The only thing it's missing is Kabal Melee units!

May be, but in the article they wrote:

"In practice, this allows you to re-roll Advance and charge moves from the very first turn, which opens up all sorts of insidious tactical possibilities. We’d recommend deploying as much of your army as possible in reserve on Raiders, deploying them with Screaming Jets, then charging each Raider into the softest of your opponent’s infantry in order to help screen them from shooting in the next turn, or to deny a more dangerous unit a shooting attack!"

Sounds more like they wanted to give an example for rerolling charges in the first turn. Even the reasons for doing this mentioned are not to get the units inside closer to the enemy.
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PostSubject: Re: Codex Drukhari Preview: The Kabals   Wed Mar 28 2018, 06:38

Could have just been a subtle way to help us make the connection between the BH Obsession and its interaction with the raider, that is to say that the raider gets a nice 6+++.

Obviously that's not how the article frames it, but the flow of an article like this is rather important, and is designed to help us connect the dots even on a cursory reading.

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PostSubject: Re: Codex Drukhari Preview: The Kabals   Wed Mar 28 2018, 06:40

@Creeping Darkness wrote:
Loving this preview!

I just noticed
- Poisoned Tongue is Lady Malys’ Kabal
- Their Obsession is called “The Serpent’s Kiss”
- It makes poison better
- Duke Sliscus is the Serpent
- Better poison is the Duke’s schtick

Are Lady Malys and Duke Sliscus Commoragh’s newest power couple?
-

I like this.

@Kantalla wrote:

Potentially, but to avoid awkward wording around the transports they might leave as they are now (i.e. can carry XX Drukhari infantry or Incubi).

For Drukhari you need to select a faction for the transport of either <KABAL> <CULT> <COVEN> and then have wording:
"May transport XX <KABAL> <CULT> <COVEN> or INCUBI infantry"
Plus have an explanation the subfaction selection has to be the same as chosen for the transport. The potential confusion there might give a reason to leave as is. Otherwise someone will decide their transport is OBSIDIAN ROSE / CULT OF STRIFE / THE HEX of mix and match infantry going in there.

It would explain why they wrote druckhari infantry or incubi in the index.
Although it would be a bummer if I cannot mix and match different units inside raiders anymore.
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PostSubject: Re: Codex Drukhari Preview: The Kabals   Wed Mar 28 2018, 07:12

I'm really interested in what they've done to raiders, dissi cannons and all our vehicles, but they didn't concentrate on vehicles at all, only how they interact with out troops.

Fingers crossed for a few ravager stratagems (I assume that may be what obsidian rose get as their workmanship is meant to be the best)
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PostSubject: Re: Codex Drukhari Preview: The Kabals   Wed Mar 28 2018, 07:14

So... do you think that they'll up the basic speed of our vehicles to 16", so that our regular stuff is as fast as craftworlder stuff?

Because if so then we get 19" movement with the right obsession, and that is awesome in all ways.
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PostSubject: Re: Codex Drukhari Preview: The Kabals   Wed Mar 28 2018, 07:37

I've always quietly wished that we could have Disintegrator carbines for scourges or trueborn.

But something tells me that this dex will be about tweaks to current things rather than introducing anything new.

Glad to see everyone ranges from cautiously optimistic to excited.
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PostSubject: Re: Codex Drukhari Preview: The Kabals   Wed Mar 28 2018, 08:59

It is exciting, having seen GW improve Blasters, to think they must have paid some attention to the weapons we listed as weak.  People may have wanted or liked the idea of D6 Blasters but the fact remains that they were still heavily used with the D3 stat.  So to improve a weapon that was already popular...what might they have done with weapons that didn't even make it into a single list???

I would have to imagine that the Heat Lance has been given some love.  It is a weapon meant for Scourge IMO and now that Blasters are S8/D6 there is just no reason to take a Heat Lance in its current form...hell there was no reason to take one before either.

I would be very surprised if lots of our weapons hadn't been buffed.
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PostSubject: Re: Codex Drukhari Preview: The Kabals   Wed Mar 28 2018, 09:13

@Dark Elf Dave wrote:
It is exciting, having seen GW improve Blasters, to think they must have paid some attention to the weapons we listed as weak.  People may have wanted or liked the idea of D6 Blasters but the fact remains that they were still heavily used with the D3 stat.  So to improve a weapon that was already popular...what might they have done with weapons that didn't even make it into a single list???

I would have to imagine that the Heat Lance has been given some love.  It is a weapon meant for Scourge IMO and now that Blasters are S8/D6 there is just no reason to take a Heat Lance in its current form...hell there was no reason to take one before either.

I would be very surprised if lots of our weapons hadn't been buffed.

Well they are used b.c there is no other weapons, you have to pick either; Blaster or shredder per 5 man.

No one used them on Scourges.

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PostSubject: Re: Codex Drukhari Preview: The Kabals   Wed Mar 28 2018, 09:21

How often did you pick a Shredder then? You may of course prove me wrong, but I had a feeling that the only reason people would pick the Shredder was because they didn't have any Blaster arms left.

Of course my point remains the same. GW have given some love to an already popular weapon, what might they have done to the long list of unpopular weapons?
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PostSubject: Re: Codex Drukhari Preview: The Kabals   Wed Mar 28 2018, 09:28

@Dark Elf Dave wrote:
How often did you pick a Shredder then?  You may of course prove me wrong, but I had a feeling that the only reason people would pick the Shredder was because they didn't have any Blaster arms left.

Of course my point remains the same.  GW have given some love to an already popular weapon, what might they have done to the long list of unpopular weapons?

But i'm saying it was popular b.c people had them and it was the only viable weapon. Just b.c it was used doesnt mean it was good, they should have been D6 from the start and many thought it was a typo.

Shredders tho, i cant wait to see them/points, as it stands (ive done the math on it for literally over an hour) from points cost equal to SB (including the guys) from turn 1, 2, 3, 4. From full range to half range, and the SB is better.....

My biggest convern is points now on many units and items, Blaster, Reavers, Heat Lances, Shredders, etc...

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PostSubject: Re: Codex Drukhari Preview: The Kabals   Wed Mar 28 2018, 09:56

I'm obviously hyped, but I'm personally I'm also a bit disappointed. Black Heart seems really dumb, and unless there's something we haven't seen yet, pretty poorly thought through. Screaming jets isn't very impressive (you can only use it once, right?), and since you can't use it with the webway strat our alpha strike/deep strike potential seems really limited and scales really poorly. Poisoned Tongue is just weak. I really like the idea of getting offensive buffs, especially to splinter weapons, but this one is pretty pathetic. Splinter racks are great but are completely invalidated against anything with -1 to hit, which is actually quite a lot. Flayed Skull is great though, and Im genuinely excited to maybe be able to zip around the table like de should. Their stratagem seems nice in niche situations, like crisis suits, which I guess is what stratagems should be. Nice, but not that strong. Blaster change is expected but still awesome. Obsidian Rose is also very cool, and probably the one I will use as it fits my playstyle (except for the whole footsloggers thing, not sure why they thought that would be a good idea) assuming splinter cannons are changed to heavy 6. Artifacts are meh. I'm looking forward to seeing unit and weapon stats and points (do they show that in previews?), especially those of the HQ's and Coven units. I also hope they change back bladevanes to doing damage when moving over units.
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PostSubject: Re: Codex Drukhari Preview: The Kabals   Wed Mar 28 2018, 09:57

So here's my 5 cents on the Flayed Skull obsession:

...enemy units do not receive the benefit of saving throws for being in cover against attacks made by models with this obsession that can FLY, or that are embarked upon a TRANSPORT that can FLY. Re-roll hit rolls of 1 for such models when attacking with Rapid Fire weapons.

Here's how I read it. We all get that the reroll-1s sentence talks about models defined in the previous sentence. Now, which models are those? I read it as:
- models with this obsession that can FLY
- models with this obsession that are embarked upon a TRANSPORT that can FLY

So the question is not "can I use this obsession with other Kabal's Kabalites" (the answer is no, since they are not models with this obsession) but rather "can I use this obsession when embarked upon another Kabal's TRANSPORT" - and from my point of view, it's yes, you can, since the obsession only requires you to be embarked on a FLYing TRANSPORT.

And yeah we should ask for a FAQ on that asap, since we're getting one in 2 weeks from a codex' release.
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PostSubject: Re: Codex Drukhari Preview: The Kabals   Wed Mar 28 2018, 09:58

I'm actually considering buying 4 Sslyth to put them together with an Archon in a Venom. If the Archons gets a decent buff for his killing capacity i could imagine they could be a nice body guard AND dish out some damage with the Kabal of the poisoned tongue trait.

Really excited about the Codex!
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PostSubject: Re: Codex Drukhari Preview: The Kabals   Wed Mar 28 2018, 10:08

@Pain Engine wrote:
I'm obviously hyped, but I'm personally I'm also a bit disappointed. Black Heart seems really dumb, and unless there's something we haven't seen yet, pretty poorly thought through. Screaming jets isn't very impressive (you can only use it once, right?), and since you can't use it with the webway strat our alpha strike/deep strike potential seems really limited and scales really poorly. Poisoned Tongue is just weak. I really like the idea of getting offensive buffs, especially to splinter weapons, but this one is pretty pathetic. Splinter racks are great but are completely invalidated against anything with -1 to hit, which is actually quite a lot. Flayed Skull is great though, and Im genuinely excited to maybe be able to zip around the table like de should. Their stratagem seems nice in niche situations, like crisis suits, which I guess is what stratagems should be. Nice, but not that strong. Blaster change is expected but still awesome. Obsidian Rose is also very cool, and probably the one I will use as it fits my playstyle (except for the whole footsloggers thing, not sure why they thought that would be a good idea) assuming splinter cannons are changed to heavy 6. Artifacts are meh. I'm looking forward to seeing unit and weapon stats and points (do they show that in previews?), especially those of the HQ's and Coven units. I also hope they change back bladevanes to doing damage when moving over units.


1) Black Heart will be fore sure the Melee Kabals, If you are running Lhamaeans, Archons, etc.. you might like it, also i think the vehicles will gain a 6+++, over all it fits a play style that we wont know if it is viable until we see more.

2) I thought all stratagems that are used before 1st turn are unlimited? Its how CSM became very strong, so you can use it multiple times, just 1CP each time (which might be why we can get 8+ CP without trying)

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PostSubject: Re: Codex Drukhari Preview: The Kabals   Wed Mar 28 2018, 10:10

@Pain Engine wrote:
I'm obviously hyped, but I'm personally I'm also a bit disappointed. Black Heart seems really dumb, and unless there's something we haven't seen yet, pretty poorly thought through. Screaming jets isn't very impressive (you can only use it once, right?), and since you can't use it with the webway strat our alpha strike/deep strike potential seems really limited and scales really poorly. Poisoned Tongue is just weak. I really like the idea of getting offensive buffs, especially to splinter weapons, but this one is pretty pathetic. Splinter racks are great but are completely invalidated against anything with -1 to hit, which is actually quite a lot. Flayed Skull is great though, and Im genuinely excited to maybe be able to zip around the table like de should. Their stratagem seems nice in niche situations, like crisis suits, which I guess is what stratagems should be. Nice, but not that strong. Blaster change is expected but still awesome. Obsidian Rose is also very cool, and probably the one I will use as it fits my playstyle (except for the whole footsloggers thing, not sure why they thought that would be a good idea) assuming splinter cannons are changed to heavy 6. Artifacts are meh. I'm looking forward to seeing unit and weapon stats and points (do they show that in previews?), especially those of the HQ's and Coven units. I also hope they change back bladevanes to doing damage when moving over units.

You can use screaming jets as many times as you want.
Also see my take on the Black Heart here: http://www.thedarkcity.net/t17195-which-kabal-is-your-fav#211649
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PostSubject: Re: Codex Drukhari Preview: The Kabals   Wed Mar 28 2018, 10:11

Did anyone notice that Screming jets do not prevent the embarked unit from disembarking closer than 9", unlike droppods and the like? That would mean you only need a 6 on your charge roll.

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PostSubject: Re: Codex Drukhari Preview: The Kabals   Wed Mar 28 2018, 10:12

@eae wrote:
So here's my 5 cents on the Flayed Skull obsession:

...enemy units do not receive the benefit of saving throws for being in cover against attacks made by models with this obsession that can FLY, or that are embarked upon a TRANSPORT that can FLY. Re-roll hit rolls of 1 for such models when attacking with Rapid Fire weapons.

Here's how I read it. We all get that the reroll-1s sentence talks about models defined in the previous sentence. Now, which models are those? I read it as:
- models with this obsession that can FLY
- models with this obsession that are embarked upon a TRANSPORT that can FLY

So the question is not "can I use this obsession with other Kabal's Kabalites" (the answer is no, since they are not models with this obsession) but rather "can I use this obsession when embarked upon another Kabal's TRANSPORT" - and from my point of view, it's yes, you can, since the obsession only requires you to be embarked on a FLYing TRANSPORT.

And yeah we should ask for a FAQ on that asap, since we're getting one in 2 weeks from a codex' release.

You dont need a faq, i think you miss understood it, You Kabals and Raider are "Kabal of the Flawed Skulls" (they have to be to go into the raider, same keywords), or that are embarked upon a TRANSPORT that can FLY B.c the Raider has fly the kabals gain this rule. Meaning a 10man unit with a SC will all have Rapid fire and can re-roll 1's also ignoring cover.

To be clear it says "embark on a transport that can fly" that is very clear.

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PostSubject: Re: Codex Drukhari Preview: The Kabals   Wed Mar 28 2018, 10:29

@amishprn86 wrote:
You Kabals and Raider are "Kabal of the Flawed Skulls" (they have to be to go into the raider, same keywords)
That is not true. Raider at the moment transports DRUKHARI INFANTRY models, no mention of a <KABAL> keyword. Some people draw an analogy to <CRAFTWORLD> transports yet I'd like to point out that Wave Serpents had their limitation clearly defined in the Index and Raider does not.

If this limitation was indeed added then we won't need a FAQ indeed but till that happens - well, I've already seen THREE interpretations of this obsession which means it's a clear candidate for a FAQ.
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