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 Codex: Drukhai Preview – Assembling Your Raiding Party

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Codex: Drukhai Preview – Assembling Your Raiding Party   Tue Mar 27 2018, 12:19

@Voidhawk wrote:
@corollax wrote:
The thing that concerns me most about today's hype article is what it means for the flexibility of our army. I'm a cynic by nature, but even I have to say it feels nice to see a fellow dark city denizen feeling enthusiastic about what our new codex has to offer. When Evil Space Elves says the codex seems solid, I genuinely believe him.

But what I'm actually hoping for isn't just solidity, but also flexibility. And it seems that we're not getting any mechanism to mix kabals, cults, and covens within the same detachment without giving up obsessions and stratagems. More than anything else, I want the Drukhari codex to give me a reason to leave Craftworlders and Harlequins out of my army. Obsessions and stratagems are supposed to be that reason.

So if I want to use stratagems, that means at least a Battalion (to get enough CP). And if that Battalion is going to use those stratagems, it needs to be single-faction. So I need two HQs in the same faction.

If that faction a wych cult, I guess I can use Lelith. If it's a coven, I guess I can use Urien. But if it's a Kabal, I have no choice but to field two archons. Archons might be willing to team up under dire circumstances, but I feel like any archon worth the name is going to be perpetually looking for an opportunity to stage a coup and seize control of the army for themselves -- especially if the supposed warlord is mechanically no better than the other archon I was forced to bring along.

I like most of the changes in 8th edition, but the new detachments have denied me the opportunity to run single HQ armies. And I'm simply not seeing a way to field a Drukhari army with enough CP to use the stratagems that doesn't involve 2 (or more) archons. I could possibly accept this if I could contextualize it as an archon of the upper-tiers leading a (cadre of) lower-tier archon(s). But if an archon is a "captain" in space marine terms, we simply lack the "chapter master" equivalent. And I feel that kind of distinction is a fundamental assumption of the multi-HQ detachments that form the core of the 8th edition force organization charts.

I hope the new Archon options help remedy this, but I've spent most of 8th edition feeling like my archons are trying to fill space marine boots whenever I select HQs for my detachments.

...Did you actually read the Raiding Force rule? Mixed armies are exactly what it's made for!

1 Patrol = 1 HQ, 1 Troop
1 Battalion = 2 HQ, 3 Troop = +3cp
3 Patrols = 3 HQ, 3 Troop = +4cp
6 Patrols = 6 HQ, 6 Troops = +8cp

3 Battalions = 6 HQ, 9 Troops = +9cp
1 Brigade = 3 HQ, 6 Troops, 3 Elite, 3 Fast, 3 Heavy = +9cp

For the cost a single HQ over a Battalion, you get to split your force into three different detachments. Each one can be Kabal/Cult/Coven in any combination, with whichever tactics Obsession fits best for that part of the army. You get an extra CP as well, which can be spent either on getting extra Warlord Traits (so you can have a Tactical Genius CP-regening Archon, and a murderous Sucubus), or just save it and get more stratagem uses.

If you're looking for ways to run "single HQ armies", I'm sorry but the era of that is far behind us. 8th is the edition of spamming cheap troops and Buff-HQs, and has been that way since the Indexes first dropped. Maybe we get the Dracon back as a cheap Archon substitute, but if you want only one character you were always going to be disappointed with this edition.


Nothing so far that we have seen says you can not run kabals and wyches together.

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Elfric
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PostSubject: Re: Codex: Drukhai Preview – Assembling Your Raiding Party   Tue Mar 27 2018, 12:22

Multiple Warlords, multiple traits..does this mean multiple relic weapons?
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Codex: Drukhai Preview – Assembling Your Raiding Party   Tue Mar 27 2018, 12:24

@Elfric wrote:
Multiple Warlords, multiple traits..does this mean multiple relic weapons?

Well, you can already take multiple relics by paying extra CPs.
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PostSubject: Re: Codex: Drukhai Preview – Assembling Your Raiding Party   Tue Mar 27 2018, 12:25

@The Shredder wrote:
@Elfric wrote:
Multiple Warlords, multiple traits..does this mean multiple relic weapons?

Well, you can already take multiple relics by paying extra CPs.

And we for sure will see Kabal, wych, coven ones.

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PostSubject: Re: Codex: Drukhai Preview – Assembling Your Raiding Party   Tue Mar 27 2018, 12:27

Do you thing everyone's favourite relic - The Djin Blade - will have made the cut?
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Crazy_Ivan
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PostSubject: Re: Codex: Drukhai Preview – Assembling Your Raiding Party   Tue Mar 27 2018, 12:42

Soul trap coming back would be awesome
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eae
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PostSubject: Re: Codex: Drukhai Preview – Assembling Your Raiding Party   Tue Mar 27 2018, 12:45

Aw c'mon if I were to dream, a webway portal sphere coming back would be awesome indeed Smile
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mynamelegend
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PostSubject: Re: Codex: Drukhai Preview – Assembling Your Raiding Party   Tue Mar 27 2018, 12:48

@Voidhawk wrote:
...Did you actually read the Raiding Force rule? Mixed armies are exactly what it's made for!

1 Patrol = 1 HQ, 1 Troop
1 Battalion = 2 HQ, 3 Troop = +3cp
3 Patrols = 3 HQ, 3 Troop = +4cp
6 Patrols = 6 HQ, 6 Troops = +8cp

3 Battalions = 6 HQ, 9 Troops = +9cp
1 Brigade = 3 HQ, 6 Troops, 3 Elite, 3 Fast, 3 Heavy = +9cp

For the cost a single HQ over a Battalion, you get to split your force into three different detachments. Each one can be Kabal/Cult/Coven in any combination, with whichever tactics Obsession fits best for that part of the army. You get an extra CP as well, which can be spent either on getting extra Warlord Traits (so you can have a Tactical Genius CP-regening Archon, and a murderous Sucubus), or just save it and get more stratagem uses.

If you're looking for ways to run "single HQ armies", I'm sorry but the era of that is far behind us. 8th is the edition of spamming cheap troops and Buff-HQs, and has been that way since the Indexes first dropped. Maybe we get the Dracon back as a cheap Archon substitute, but if you want only one character you were always going to be disappointed with this edition.

The problem is that the "multiple patrols" thing only really works if wyches and wracks are actually valid and useful to take in the same army list. Otherwise you're paying "a single HQ" and a useless unit of wyches and a useless unit of wracks over a Battalion, while giving up the ability to field more than 3 units of Warriors (and more importantly more than 2 Ravagers, which up until now has been unquestionably our best unit)
The salient point is - It sure looks like we're made to jump through a lot more hoops just to get to keep our "Obsessions" than any other army out there, and unless there's been a lot of changes to the non-Kabalite troop choices the best way to jump through those hoops will probably be Battalion+Outrider, not the Raiding Force Patrol+Patrol+Patrol.

And that's all ignoring the simple fact that we currently have the game's, unquestionably, worst HQ choices. Spamming cheap troops and Buff-HQs is very well and good, but the only good buff HQ we have doesn't work with the only good troop we have, and forcing us to take the bad troops and the bad HQs if we want to keep our Obsessions won't actually make that better.
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|Meavar
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PostSubject: Re: Codex: Drukhai Preview – Assembling Your Raiding Party   Tue Mar 27 2018, 12:50

@The Shredder wrote:
Do you thing everyone's favourite relic - The Djin Blade - will have made the cut?
Yes
@amishprn86 wrote:
Nothing so far that we have seen says you can not run kabals and wyches together
While you are somewhat right saying "The forces of the Drukhari are broadly divided into three categories – Kabals, Wych Cults, and Haemonculus Covens (not to mention free agents like the Incubi or Scourges). Each of these groups has its own set of Warlord Traits, faction rules and artefacts, and a Drukhari army is often made up of a collection of smaller Detachments from each faction" seems to imply that we need to split them into smaller detachments since mixed they will not get acces to faction rules and possibly artefacts/warlord traits in one large mixed detachment.

Now don't get me wrong I do not mind the splitting at all, and I think it can be a good fluffier rule for us. But with the limit on detachments it will sometimes be a problem.
All those "extra" CPs are only gained if we take enough of them. Being unable to make an army with regimental doctrines and a splash of each coven kabal and cult in a 1000 point army sort of annoys me a little bit.
That being said for 1250 point games I think it will work out great, as long as you go mono dark eldar (which is what I like it does seem to limit taking that 1 detachment of craftworlders to have a farseer, warlocks, dark reapers)
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PostSubject: Re: Codex: Drukhai Preview – Assembling Your Raiding Party   Tue Mar 27 2018, 12:59

@mynamelegend wrote:
@Voidhawk wrote:
...Did you actually read the Raiding Force rule? Mixed armies are exactly what it's made for!

1 Patrol = 1 HQ, 1 Troop
1 Battalion = 2 HQ, 3 Troop = +3cp
3 Patrols = 3 HQ, 3 Troop = +4cp
6 Patrols = 6 HQ, 6 Troops = +8cp

3 Battalions = 6 HQ, 9 Troops = +9cp
1 Brigade = 3 HQ, 6 Troops, 3 Elite, 3 Fast, 3 Heavy = +9cp

For the cost a single HQ over a Battalion, you get to split your force into three different detachments. Each one can be Kabal/Cult/Coven in any combination, with whichever tactics Obsession fits best for that part of the army. You get an extra CP as well, which can be spent either on getting extra Warlord Traits (so you can have a Tactical Genius CP-regening Archon, and a murderous Sucubus), or just save it and get more stratagem uses.

If you're looking for ways to run "single HQ armies", I'm sorry but the era of that is far behind us. 8th is the edition of spamming cheap troops and Buff-HQs, and has been that way since the Indexes first dropped. Maybe we get the Dracon back as a cheap Archon substitute, but if you want only one character you were always going to be disappointed with this edition.

The problem is that the "multiple patrols" thing only really works if wyches and wracks are actually valid and useful to take in the same army list. Otherwise you're paying "a single HQ" and a useless unit of wyches and a useless unit of wracks over a Battalion, while giving up the ability to field more than 3 units of Warriors (and more importantly more than 2 Ravagers, which up until now has been unquestionably our best unit)
The salient point is - It sure looks like we're made to jump through a lot more hoops just to get to keep our "Obsessions" than any other army out there, and unless there's been a lot of changes to the non-Kabalite troop choices the best way to jump through those hoops will probably be Battalion+Outrider, not the Raiding Force Patrol+Patrol+Patrol.

And that's all ignoring the simple fact that we currently have the game's, unquestionably, worst HQ choices. Spamming cheap troops and Buff-HQs is very well and good, but the only good buff HQ we have doesn't work with the only good troop we have, and forcing us to take the bad troops and the bad HQs if we want to keep our Obsessions won't actually make that better.
This man gets it. The implications so far are that our army is being split appart. If my Kabal wants to hire on a Reavers or Hellion gang, or borrow a Haemonculus Grotesquerie, I'll have to take a separate detachment to avoid screwing over the rest of the army and that means taking the associated tax units that I may not have wanted.

The Raiding Force rule may sound fluffy at first, but it's little more than a band aid over a gaping wound.
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Codex: Drukhai Preview – Assembling Your Raiding Party   Tue Mar 27 2018, 13:03

@amishprn86 wrote:
Nothing so far that we have seen says you can not run kabals and wyches together.

You probably can, but they'll almost certainly lose their Kabal/Cult bonuses if you do.
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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: Codex: Drukhai Preview – Assembling Your Raiding Party   Tue Mar 27 2018, 13:06

Whether Raiding Force winds up being Good or Interesting Yet Flawed depends almost entirely on the state of our HQs and troops.
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PostSubject: Re: Codex: Drukhai Preview – Assembling Your Raiding Party   Tue Mar 27 2018, 13:09

@mynamelegend wrote:
@Voidhawk wrote:
...Did you actually read the Raiding Force rule? Mixed armies are exactly what it's made for!

1 Patrol = 1 HQ, 1 Troop
1 Battalion = 2 HQ, 3 Troop = +3cp
3 Patrols = 3 HQ, 3 Troop = +4cp
6 Patrols = 6 HQ, 6 Troops = +8cp

3 Battalions = 6 HQ, 9 Troops = +9cp
1 Brigade = 3 HQ, 6 Troops, 3 Elite, 3 Fast, 3 Heavy = +9cp

For the cost a single HQ over a Battalion, you get to split your force into three different detachments. Each one can be Kabal/Cult/Coven in any combination, with whichever tactics Obsession fits best for that part of the army. You get an extra CP as well, which can be spent either on getting extra Warlord Traits (so you can have a Tactical Genius CP-regening Archon, and a murderous Sucubus), or just save it and get more stratagem uses.

If you're looking for ways to run "single HQ armies", I'm sorry but the era of that is far behind us. 8th is the edition of spamming cheap troops and Buff-HQs, and has been that way since the Indexes first dropped. Maybe we get the Dracon back as a cheap Archon substitute, but if you want only one character you were always going to be disappointed with this edition.

The problem is that the "multiple patrols" thing only really works if wyches and wracks are actually valid and useful to take in the same army list. Otherwise you're paying "a single HQ" and a useless unit of wyches and a useless unit of wracks over a Battalion, while giving up the ability to field more than 3 units of Warriors (and more importantly more than 2 Ravagers, which up until now has been unquestionably our best unit)
The salient point is - It sure looks like we're made to jump through a lot more hoops just to get to keep our "Obsessions" than any other army out there, and unless there's been a lot of changes to the non-Kabalite troop choices the best way to jump through those hoops will probably be Battalion+Outrider, not the Raiding Force Patrol+Patrol+Patrol.

And that's all ignoring the simple fact that we currently have the game's, unquestionably, worst HQ choices. Spamming cheap troops and Buff-HQs is very well and good, but the only good buff HQ we have doesn't work with the only good troop we have, and forcing us to take the bad troops and the bad HQs if we want to keep our Obsessions won't actually make that better.

Not at all. You can take a Raiding force of 3 Kabal Patrols. Either all different Kabals, or just the same Kabal three times if all you want is the extra CP. Or 2 Kabal Patrols with Warriors and Ravagers, and one Cult Patrol with a single unit of webway-wyches and some Reavers. If Coven suddenly gets buffed into the stratosphere, but you still want some warriors for Lances you can go Coven/Coven/Kabal.

If you're thinking about Battalion+Outrider, spend a moment considering Raiding Force+Outrider.

To borrow a term from Magic the Gathering: the purpose of the Raiding Force is splashing. You get to bring a few units from whatever sub-faction you like, without giving up CPs or special rules.
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|Meavar
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PostSubject: Re: Codex: Drukhai Preview – Assembling Your Raiding Party   Tue Mar 27 2018, 13:15

The problem is right now we are 1 army so we can do all the splashing we want.
The fact that they give us 1 option to make splashing possible in some way, even though they effectively split us in 3 different armies means the limitations are bigger than before.

As mentioned just adding a unit of grotesques or reavers or a single pain engine to an otherwise complete kabal force now is not possible anymore.
Now this does help make things more fluffy and I am not saying I object, but unless we get some other large bonusses or the HQs and troops are really good we do have been downgraded.
Then again if the troops and HQ are viable than I think it helps bring the fluff to life and it is a good change even if it might make our army less good in fully optimized lists.
And yes it might mean I cannot field a unit of grotesques or pain engine anymore since I think the wrack sculpts are awfull so I refuse to field them. Just a splash of one of the factions has become impossible without some drawbacks. Guess the best option is take my pain engine together with a unit wyches and an succubus in the patrol detachment and accept I get no faction traits for them.
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Dark Elf Dave
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PostSubject: Re: Codex: Drukhai Preview – Assembling Your Raiding Party   Tue Mar 27 2018, 13:44

You get no faction traits for ANYTHING right now so how can you say you are being downgraded if you don't get them for everything?
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Codex: Drukhai Preview – Assembling Your Raiding Party   Tue Mar 27 2018, 13:48

@Dark Elf Dave wrote:
You get no faction traits for ANYTHING right now so how can you say you are being downgraded if you don't get them for everything?

I assume they're comparing the way our codex will work - with the traits split between 3+ subfactions - to how every other codex works.

Though you're right - 'downgrade' is probably still the wrong word.
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PostSubject: Re: Codex: Drukhai Preview – Assembling Your Raiding Party   Tue Mar 27 2018, 13:57

@The Shredder wrote:
@amishprn86 wrote:
Nothing so far that we have seen says you can not run kabals and wyches together.

You probably can, but they'll almost certainly lose their Kabal/Cult bonuses if you do.

This ^, Im not saying you will get all the bonus, i'm saying they will still let you, it will just not be as good (or it might be, who knows).

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PostSubject: Re: Codex: Drukhai Preview – Assembling Your Raiding Party   Tue Mar 27 2018, 14:00

I think too much conjecture is being made having only seen one stratagem and one way to generate CP's.
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PostSubject: Re: Codex: Drukhai Preview – Assembling Your Raiding Party   Tue Mar 27 2018, 14:03

@Crazy_Ivan wrote:
I think too much conjecture is being made having only seen one stratagem and one way to generate CP's.

Welcome to the crazy ride that's going to be preview week! Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Codex: Drukhai Preview – Assembling Your Raiding Party   Tue Mar 27 2018, 14:06

@Crazy_Ivan wrote:
I think too much conjecture is being made having only seen one stratagem and one way to generate CP's.

They are not going to limit players from playing what/how they like.

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PostSubject: Re: Codex: Drukhai Preview – Assembling Your Raiding Party   Tue Mar 27 2018, 14:26

@Voidhawk wrote:
Not at all. You can take a Raiding force of 3 Kabal Patrols. Either all different Kabals, or just the same Kabal three times if all you want is the extra CP. Or 2 Kabal Patrols with Warriors and Ravagers, and one Cult Patrol with a single unit of webway-wyches and some Reavers. If Coven suddenly gets buffed into the stratosphere, but you still want some warriors for Lances you can go Coven/Coven/Kabal.

If you're thinking about Battalion+Outrider, spend a moment considering Raiding Force+Outrider.

To borrow a term from Magic the Gathering: the purpose of the Raiding Force is splashing. You get to bring a few units from whatever sub-faction you like, without giving up CPs or special rules.

Every other army in the game gets to do all the splashing they want too, and they don't have to pick between cherry-picking and getting access to their Tactics.

There's absolutely nothing stopping a Chaos Marines army from fielding a Word Bearers patrol, an Alpha Legion patrol, and an Iron Warriors patrol. Each one of those patrols gives up basically nothing except for the named characters. You can take more or less the full breadth of CSM units in every single one of those patrols with no problem.

By comparison, a Coven detachment can field less than half of the units in our index without losing their Obsession.

Our system for Obsessions is basically just the Chapter Tactics everyone else gets, only... Much worse, because instead of cutting out "named characters and maybe the librarian or sorcerer", we're cutting out a third to half the codex.

It doesn't seem very likely that forcing us to take more of our worst and weakest slot (HQs) will make up for the fact that we may well be taxed into the dirt if we want to field a mixed army like *every other codex gets to do without having to deal with this crap*.
(And as a sidenote, even fielding pure Kabal patrols is basically just a way to force ourselves to get even more goddamn Archons. You're probably better off with a Brigade if you're fine with running 3 Kabal Patrols)
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PostSubject: Re: Codex: Drukhai Preview – Assembling Your Raiding Party   Tue Mar 27 2018, 14:28

Quote :

They are not going to limit players from playing what/how they like.

How do you know that? How can I trust you?

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PostSubject: Re: Codex: Drukhai Preview – Assembling Your Raiding Party   Tue Mar 27 2018, 14:32

@TeenageAngst wrote:
Quote :

They are not going to limit players from playing what/how they like.

How do you know that? How can I trust you?

What so far limits you? 3 ways to play, PL, points, factions can play with either other of same keywords, detachments to play w/e you like, etc...

I can play an army of only Hive Tyrants, or a Warrior prime and only Warriors, then i can play all MC, or i can play with Guard and GSC. I can play SM detachment from any codex (tho i dont get any special rules), i can play Harlequins with DE and CWE at the same time.

Why would they for this 1 army say "You cant play Kabals with Wyches in the same detachment" ? They wouldnt, they will just not gain any benefits.

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PostSubject: Re: Codex: Drukhai Preview – Assembling Your Raiding Party   Tue Mar 27 2018, 14:40

Not gaining benefits from being in the same detachment when they are the same army is the biggest nerf we could possibly get. We are taxed to combine 3 tiny armies.

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PostSubject: Re: Codex: Drukhai Preview – Assembling Your Raiding Party   Tue Mar 27 2018, 14:42

@TeenageAngst wrote:
Not gaining benefits from being in the same detachment when they are the same army is the biggest nerf we could possibly get. We are taxed to combine 3 tiny armies.

We don't know that is the case yet.
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